Relaxation of Restrictions, Part X *Read OP For Mod Warnings*

thebaz

Multipass wrote: »

You forgot that the most vulnerable are vaccinated too. Not good enough though, nothing will ever be good enough.

its exactly what happened 2 months ago, leaks , leaks, and more leaks, prepping the public for more bad news - The whole idea of lockdowns was to flatten the curve somehow NPHET have forgotten this, in ther one thing they do well - Lockdown, but when no questions ther actions and just applauds them , this is what you get.

growleaves

Boggles wrote: »

Nope.

But of course you know more than Prof Ella Arensman, chief scientist with the National Suicide Research Foundation.

You're mistaken in your conclusion because you haven't been reading carefully enough.

The article you link is dated March 2 and says suicides haven't increased in the last year.

The article I linked is dated March 16 and says suicides among the very young are rising right now.

There is no contradiction between the two articles and the facts related in the second are based on eyewitness accounts by senior doctors in large children's hospitals in England and France.

Boggles

growleaves wrote: »

You're mistaken in your conclusion because you haven't been reading carefully enough.

The article you link is dated March 2 and says suicides haven't increased in the last year.

The article I linked is dated March 16 and says suicides among the very young are rising right now.

There is no contradiction between the two articles and the facts related in the second are based on eyewitness accounts by senior doctors in large children's hospitals in England and France.

Nope, you need to read it again.

The Professor is calling out the likes of the "American Economic Think Tank" you linked for sensationalizing suicide during the pandemic.

She is also calling out the likes of you for spreading it.

Boggles

timmyntc wrote: »

Funny how for years it was "the children are our future" and we need to protect them and their future.

Very quickly gets abandoned when the older people are at risk - screw the children and screw their development

Sure certain people would push them down further if given the chance.

timmyntc wrote: »

Construction is more important than schools being open.

Boggles

the kelt wrote: »

Yep thats quite possible.

But i believe we wont actually have a full view of the virus in the community as a result which is actually a missed opportunity to fully get a better understanding.

I don't think the current pop centers will do that anyway.

It's a pilot programme for something bigger in the future.

You have to start somewhere.

Boggles

Boggles wrote: »

Sure certain people would push them down further if given the chance.

I sometimes wondered Boggles, do you keep an excel sheet with links to peoples previous positions so you can rapidly pounce on possible inconsistencies?

Sobit1964

Boggles wrote: »

Nope.

Suicides have not increased during pandemic, figures indicate



But of course you know more than Prof Ella Arensman, chief scientist with the National Suicide Research Foundation.

Big fat appeal to authority there - I didnt say anything of the sort however. Poor form old chap, poor form.

I do note from your linked article, thank you for digging it out as I really couldn't be bothered:

Charities and mental health experts warn, however, several factors may be protecting people with severe mental health difficulties for now, and fear the fallout post-Covid could be far worse than anticipated.

This in addition to the other posters linked article tend to indicate a problem. Why do you have a desire to downplay this?

timmyntc

Boggles wrote: »

Sure certain people would push them down further if given the chance.

Construction *now* is important for the childrens future, and their parents trying to put a roof over their heads. Construction is almost universally important to all age groups other than the golden-oldies in their home for life.

Boggles

Deleted User wrote: »

I sometimes wondered Boggles, do you keep an excel sheet with links to peoples previous positions so you can rapidly pounce on possible inconsistencies?

No, I've just always been "blessed" with retaining absolutely useless information.

Its a curse really.

growleaves

No reason to believe that Dr. David Greenhorn and Dr. Richard Delorme are mistaken about what is happening in their hospitals over the last few weeks.

An older article pointing to last year's statistics doesn't address that.

Boggles

Sobit1964 wrote: »

Why do you have a desire to downplay this?

I have a horrible tendency to base opinion on reality. It's a failing of mine.

If you interrupt that as down playing a dangerous false narrative an actual expert has warned about, than there isn't much I can do, is there?

Don't Chute!

https://youtu.be/48-yXk5UKyw

Ciara Kelly talking sense again. The tide is finally beginning to turn.

Riodej1578

Don't Chute! wrote: »

https://youtu.be/48-yXk5UKyw

Ciara Kelly talking sense again. The tide is finally beginning to turn.

I listened to this too and was excellent.

But is the tide really beginning to turn?

Sobit1964

Boggles wrote: »

I have a horrible tendency to base opinion on reality. It's a failing of mine.

If you interrupt that as down playing a dangerous false narrative an actual expert has warned about, than there isn't much I can do, is there?

Delusional post. You have been given additional evidence and chose to ignore it, and worse still paint other doctors as playing a 'dangerous false narrative'. You also ignore the body of your own 'evidence'.

Credibility in tatters.

timmyntc

Sobit1964 wrote: »

Delusional post. You have been given additional evidence and chose to ignore it, and worse still paint other doctors as playing a 'dangerous false narrative'. You also ignore the body of your own 'evidence'.

Credibility in tatters.

Appeal to authority when it suits his argument, dismiss authority totally when it doesnt.

This isnt anything new

Don't Chute!

Riodej1578 wrote: »

I listened to this too and was excellent.

But is the tide really beginning to turn?

I think so. A few months ago we would hear nothing like that from anyone.

Boggles

Sobit1964 wrote: »

Delusional post. You have been given additional evidence and chose to ignore it, and worse still paint other doctors as playing a 'dangerous false narrative'. You also ignore the body of your own 'evidence'.

Credibility in tatters.

All ready addressed.

Boggles wrote: »

Nope, you need to read it again.

The Professor is calling out the likes of the "American Economic Think Tank" you linked for sensationalizing suicide during the pandemic.

She is also calling out the likes of you for spreading it.

People are getting fair desperate if they are "borrowing" from the anti vax playbook.

Now you have any tangible evidence that refutes the data in the article pertaining to Ireland or the expert opinion of the Professor whose job it is to deal with mental health in country.

By all mean tap it out, I'll gladly take a look.

MOH

The levels of outright hypocrisy and doublethink are beyond belief at this stage.

The EY report on pubs showed that a couple of counties where pubs were open had a roughly 10% higher increase in case numbers over a two weeks period than in Dublin, where pubs were closed. It also noted other factors such as certain sporting events and universities going back during that time.

But that was enough for NPHET, and Donnelly described it as "unambiguous evidence" that pubs alone were responsible for the increase.

When schools went back at the end of the summer, case numbers rose 50% in 3 weeks, but NPHET insisted it wasn't the schools.
Schools go back this time, and the very minimal ongoing decrease turns into an upward trend.
There's been a 5-folder increase since February in children under 12 being referred for testing, and a 40-50% increase in cases.
Yet according to Nolan:
"I know it is a controversial thing for me to say, but simply because things are happening at the same time – because they are happening concurrently – does not imply a direct cause-and-effect relationship."

I don't know how anyone who's not a pathological liar can say that with a straight face. Throughout the pandemic, NPHET have repeatedly directly made assumptions about cause-and-effect and attributed blame based on things happening concurrently. Which is all they can do given that "experts" like Philip Nolan don't believe in actual concrete measures like proper contact tracing. But as soon as that doesn't suit the narrative that they're desperate to portray, they suddenly realise it isn't a valid way of attributing cause.

You'd have to have the attention span of a goldfish to still take the word of these people for anything.

growleaves

From the Royal College of Psychiatrists in England:

Hidden epidemic of eating disorders because of COVID-19, new research finds

Referrals to eating disorder inpatient settings and emergency admissions to acute hospitals have increased by a fifth and waiting times have doubled since the pandemic in a Provider Collaborative in the south of England, according to new research.

The paper analyses data from HOPE Provider Collaborative which includes Oxford Health NHS Foundation Trust, Berkshire Healthcare NHS FT, Gloucestershire Health and Care NHS FT and the Priory Group’s inpatient provision in Bristol.

It found that the average number of referrals increased by 20% from March 2020 to November 2020 when compared with data from July 2018 to February 2020. Waiting times for potentially life-saving treatment more than doubled from 33 days to 67 days.

The average distance from home to treatment also increased from 42 miles to 62 miles during the pandemic, with seven patients sent to Glasgow as no beds were available in England.

The authors warn that these figures are likely to get worse over time and are likely to be replicated across the country.

Dr Agnes Ayton, lead author and chairwoman of the Royal College of Psychiatrists’ eating disorders faculty, said:

“Eating disorder services are at risk of being overrun by the surging numbers of people needing help because of Covid-19.

“Support networks have been dismantled and the reduced access to community services means many people are suffering in silence, unable to get the help they desperately need.

Sobit1964

Boggles wrote: »

All ready addressed.

People are getting fair desperate if they are "borrowing" from the anti vax playbook.

Its far more likely that people are getting desperate when they need to label unrelated things as 'antivax'. :rolleyes:

Baggly

the kelt wrote: »

Conveniently enough no u16's are allowed for testing in the new test centers even if their parents give permission and bring them.

Surely seeing as this area seen one of the biggest increase to get a true view of the virus in the community you would be allowing them to be tested.

But it seems they dont want any more increases in that age group being identified because .....

Boggles wrote: »

So they are using the centers to inflate numbers to keep restrictions but are refusing to test the cohort you claim are riddled?

As evil plans go, that's a shít one.

Boggles wrote: »

The post you directly replied to claimed it.

It can't be both, can it?

One of ye is wrong, so which it?

the kelt wrote: »

But i didnt claim it?

The advice on boards is to respond to the post in question if you are quoting it.

Perhaps thats the best approach wouldnt you think?

Boggles wrote: »

But I never claimed you claimed it, your post was on a continuation of one view. You have another view.

I married both of them together and asked a pertinent question.

the kelt wrote: »

No you quoted and made a reply to my post talking about issues i never even mentioned, other have noticed it too.

Perhaps responding to the point being made would be the best approach rather than taking 2 different posters opinions and marrying them together.

Its really quite simple, the other post i responded to also never mentioned anything about "using centers to inflate numbers to keep restrictions"

So the 2 posts you claimed to have married together, neither of them contain anything about "using centers to inflate numbers to keep restrictions

So effectvely neither of the 2 posts contain anything like you clained but ran with it anyway.

You could just say "fair enough, my bad" or keep inventing statements that no one is actually saying just to get a rise which is what it looks like to be honest.

Boggles wrote: »

I have explained your misinterpretation of my post twice.

I fear a third time will yield the same result. So we will have to move on.

But the overall point has been lost.

1. No, the pop up centers are not being used in order to inflate numbers and close schools.

2. (Your point) They are not refusing to test under 16s at these centers to hide infection rates in this cohort.

the kelt wrote: »

Good man, thats better, fair play. Its easier to address posts directly rather than combining 2 posts and claiming words that werent in either post were present.

No you're right, the test centers arent being used to inflate numbers. I or the other post never mentioned it did.

Are they being used to hide infection rates in u16's you claim they arent, im not so sure. If they want a full view of the virus in the community i think it would be more advisable to do so.

I think the pop up centers are a great idea to get a full view of the virus in the community but excluding u16's imho doesnt give you a full view of the virus in the community. Would you agree?

Mod

Im hoping this is just two posting styles clashing - but can you focus on discussing posts and try to avoid expanding their posts for them. Thanks.

growleaves wrote: »

Child Suicide is Becoming an ‘International Epidemic’ Amid Restricted Pandemic Life, Doctors Warn

growleaves wrote: »

Housing crisis: Building ban and savings to send house prices soaring

Mod

Please provide your own commentary or opinions - dont just dump links and quotes.

ypres5

timmyntc wrote: »

Appeal to authority when it suits his argument, dismiss authority totally when it doesnt.

This isnt anything new

I think some people are so heavily invested into lockdown that it's too hard for them to admit the emperor is bare arse naked

growleaves

Baggly wrote: »

Mod

Please provide your own commentary or opinions - dont just dump links and quotes.

Okay, sorry.

Boggles

https://twitter.com/BNODesk/status/1375391143429599234

33% positive rate at that level of testing is nuts.

https://twitter.com/BNODesk/status/1375370228218073093

https://twitter.com/BNODesk/status/1375322422682001411

Hmmm turns out Angela was right again.

growleaves

growleaves wrote: »

From the Royal College of Psychiatrists in England:

Hidden epidemic of eating disorders because of COVID-19, new research finds

The people who most need to internalise this stuff never do. They seek through pedantry, narrative tricks and appeals to single-issue fear to minimise them at every opportunity.

I suppose it is easier for the simple of mind to focus on a single issue, but it is nonetheless grotesque.

growleaves

Deleted User wrote: »

The people who most need to internalise this stuff never do. They seek through pedantry, narrative tricks and appeals to single-issue fear to minimise them at every opportunity.

I suppose it is easier for the simple of mind to focus on a single issue, but it is nonetheless grotesque.

Yes and if the exact same information had been filtered through a disliked newspaper, i.e. 'The Daily Mail report that the Royal College of Psychiatrists say...', someone would declare it unreliable info.

Boggles

growleaves wrote: »

Yes and if the exact same information had been filtered through a disliked newspaper, i.e. 'The Daily Mail report that the Royal College of Psychiatrists say...', someone would declare it unreliable info.

The data is legitimate.

Here is an article from just before the pandemic.

Eating disorder hospital admissions rise sharply

Hospital admissions for eating disorders have risen by more than a third (37%) across all age groups over the last two years, figures show.

Experts described the figures as "worrying" and urged the government to promote early intervention.

There were 19,040 admissions for eating disorders in 2018/19, up from 16,558 the year before and 13,885 in 2016/17.

The NHS Digital data for England found the most common age last year for patients with anorexia was 13 to 15.

A quarter of admissions in 2018/19 were for children aged 18 and under, at 4,471.

More than half of these (2,403) were for anorexia, up 12% from the previous year.

Therefore, while this rise in the number of young people admitted to hospital for treatment could mean that the number of young people with eating disorders is increasing, it could also be due to improvement in the ability of healthcare professionals to identify eating disorders

growleaves

Therefore, while this rise in the number of young people admitted to hospital for treatment could mean that the number of young people with eating disorders is increasing, it could also be due to improvement in the ability of healthcare professionals to identify eating disorders

Good catch but that is not conclusive. Take the data from the two articles together:

From 2018 to 2019 we have a rise of 12% and this "could also be due" to a reporting effect.

Then from March 2020 onwards we have a rise of 20%.

Now that is a massive increase on the increase from the previous year. Are we ascribing all of this to a reporting effect? In truth we don't know either way so we can't say.

But that is a huge increase.

I think the stress of the lockdowns must be a factor and the Royal Colege of Psychiatrists (no clickbait outfit) present it this way for that reason.

Boggles

growleaves wrote: »

From 2018 to 2019 we have a rise of 12% and this "could also be due" to a reporting effect.

The 12% is specific to one form in children.

A quarter of admissions in 2018/19 were for children aged 18 and under, at 4,471.

More than half of these (2,403) were for anorexia, up 12% from the previous year

growleaves wrote: »

I think the stress of the lockdowns must be a factor and the Royal Colege of Psychiatrists (no clickbait outfit) present it this way for that reason.

I imagine the stress of the pandemic as a whole and 110,000 people dying in England and how England have handled it in general will be a factor in bad mental health outcomes if they are indeed on the increase in real terms.

francogarbanzo

Boggles wrote: »

The 12% is specific to one form in children.





I imagine the stress of the pandemic as a whole and 110,000 people dying in England and how England have handled it in general will be a factor in bad mental health outcomes if they are indeed on the increase in real terms.

Will be interesting to compare mental health outcomes between places with fewer/shorter restrictions and those with more/longer ones. I have a feeling it has much less to do with the number of people who died in a country and much more to do with having life disrupted so heavily by lockdowns themselves.