Relaxation of Restrictions, Part X *Read OP For Mod Warnings*

suicide_circus

Parachutes wrote: »

The Covidians are getting desperate now, they can sense their beloved lockdown will be coming to an end soon. Expect them to get even more deranged the next while as they desperately try clamour on to their little lockdown paradise.

A reading from the second letter by St. Anthony to the Covidians.

"And Lo, the Lord did send a terrible pestilence upon them and it smote 0.4% of their number..."

Tenzor07

KrustyUCC wrote: »

They're worried about the socialisation afterwards apparently

Funny though you can't have anybody in your garden outdoors either yet they're allowing 50 indoors for mass

doesn't sound scientific at all! 50 at Mass... 25 at a funeral mass... burials are all outdoors generally... not all funerals end up in people meeting afterwards and even with only 25 allowed to the funeral mass, there's nothing to say the other 25 aren't watching online and will meet up afterwards anyways, and i'm sure this has been the case now for the past 12 months already...

ypres5

JRant wrote: »

Another example of them pick and choosing whatever suits their narrative. The UK are going great but let's focus on india and other far flung places as we obviously have more in common with them.

Sure Sligo town and mumbai are one and the same, now if you were to compare ireland and sweden, that'd be utterly ridiculous

KrustyUCC

Tenzor07 wrote: »

doesn't sound scientific at all! 50 at Mass... 25 at a funeral mass... burials are all outdoors generally... not all funerals end up in people meeting afterwards and even with only 25 allowed to the funeral mass, there's nothing to say the other 25 aren't watching online and will meet up afterwards anyways, and i'm sure this has been the case now for the past 12 months already...

It's the same crap as pulling crowds at sports games last year

The excuse used was people travelling to games together or socialising afterwards

big syke

gozunda wrote: »

Yeah perspective here's some more

1. India had one of the lowest rates of case fatality for covid in the world up to and including recent months.

https://www.thejournal.ie/india-covid19-case-levels-drop-5355716-Feb2021/ Yes they did really well previously. Very extreme restrictions up to and including beatings/caning in public for going outdoors

2. Low rates of fatality and cases led to calls for a reduction of restrictions and mask wearing. My point Re Indian government. Ireland cannot be compared we will follow WHO and Scientific advise.

3. As a result of the removal / roll back of restrictions - crowds attended religious festivals and political rallies as well as increased socialisation and travel MY point above

4. A new variant with higher levels of transmissibility has been identified as a driver of the current wave of infections Absolute nonsense. Unknown if it has more transmissibility

4. India is amongst the world leaders in absolute number of vaccinations and has so far injected 117 million vaccine doses. Currently they have approx 8 % of their population vaccinated as opposed to about 17% here Absolute number means nothing. yes 8% vs 17% - We have almost double and climbing


But yeah nothing like that has ever or could happen here ...So has it heppned here? Have people literally passed away on trollys on the street? No it hasnt and wont because we will raeact faster than that joke of a government in India

.

I am not sure if you are too far gone now with your India Ireland comparison that you cannot back down but you really need to have a good look at the two countires and the state their social practices, health system, government involvement and where they are now with regards to vaccinations, positivity rate, hospitilisations etc.

If you cannot see the vast difference I feel pretty sad for you.

JRant

Tenzor07 wrote: »

You're right!

It's amazing how some people pick up this "But India" argument when they don't have a clue about the country and the full picture there.... they never even gave a second thought to the country before this...

India is the new Brazil, which was the new Chile. It's hard to keep up with where the goalposts are anymore.

ypres5

JRant wrote: »

India is the new Brazil, which was the new Chile. It's hard to keep up with where the goalposts are anymore.

At this point the goalposts should make their own Michael Palin style travel documentary with all the places they've been.

scamalert

big syke wrote: »

.

I am not sure if you are too far gone now with your India Ireland comparison that you cannot back down but you really need to have a good look at the two countires and the state their social practices, health system, government involvement and where they are now with regards to vaccinations, positivity rate, hospitilisations etc.

If you cannot see the vast difference I feel pretty sad for you.

far gone, if cant answer aside plastering google search results

Baggly

Parachutes wrote: »

The Covidians are getting desperate now, they can sense their beloved lockdown will be coming to an end soon. Expect them to get even more deranged the next while as they desperately try clamour on to their little lockdown paradise.

Mod

Threadbanned.

Akesh

Boggles wrote: »

That's not even remotely true, they eased way too much at the beginning February because their leader is a populous cretin.
.

Thanks for the critical theory analysis. Do you have any evidence to support that?

The new cases are due to a new variant B.1.617 which was discovered in mid-April. If restriction lifting was to blame why wasn't there an explosion at the end of February?

Do you also see any hypocrisy in calling someone a populous cretin while supporting populist pseudoscientific theory on Covid in this very thread?

suicide_circus

shtpEdthePlum wrote: »

Fuhk this I'm having a garden party, i don't even care

Had one the weekend before last. Lamb chops on the bbq and beer in the ice bucket.

Sharpyshoot

suicide_circus wrote: »

Had one the weekend before last. Lamb chops on the bbq and beer in the ice bucket.

Lamb chops on a bbq is nearly reason enough to have a full lockdown.

JeffKenna

big syke wrote: »

.

I am not sure if you are too far gone now with your India Ireland comparison that you cannot back down but you really need to have a good look at the two countires and the state their social practices, health system, government involvement and where they are now with regards to vaccinations, positivity rate, hospitilisations etc.

If you cannot see the vast difference I feel pretty sad for you.

I think it shows where a person's moral compass is at to compare the people of India who live in the caste system to Ireland.

suicide_circus

Sharpyshoot wrote: »

Lamb chops on a bbq is nearly reason enough to have a full lockdown.

Marinated in lemon juice, garlic and mint

lawred2

Tenzor07 wrote: »

doesn't sound scientific at all! 50 at Mass... 25 at a funeral mass... burials are all outdoors generally... not all funerals end up in people meeting afterwards and even with only 25 allowed to the funeral mass, there's nothing to say the other 25 aren't watching online and will meet up afterwards anyways, and i'm sure this has been the case now for the past 12 months already...

there's a whiff of puritanism of NPHET... definitely a strong ideological dislike of alcohol...

lawred2

Sharpyshoot wrote: »

Lamb chops on a bbq is nearly reason enough to have a full lockdown.

that's just wrong

Boggles

Akesh wrote: »

Thanks for the critical theory analysis. Do you have any evidence to support that?

You mean the piece I included where it states the mass easing of restrictions at the start of February?

That type of evidence like?

Akesh wrote: »

Do you also see any hypocrisy in calling someone a populous cretin while supporting populist pseudoscientific theory on Covid in this very thread?

LOL

gozunda

big syke wrote: »

.I am not sure if you are too far gone now with your India Ireland comparison that you cannot back down but you really need to have a good look at the two countires and the state their social practices, health system, government involvement and where they are now with regards to vaccinations, positivity rate, hospitilisations etc.

If you cannot see the vast difference I feel pretty sad for you.

It remains India had one of the lowest case rate of fatalities and low rates of infection right up recent months.

But to your rather odd soliquay

My comparison? Rflol. I made no comparison between the two - other than to note our different vaccination rates and what has already happened.

But yes you did indeed provide that rather odd "perpesctive"

And you feel 'sad for me? Do you. Really? Tbf thats like something a 4 year old child would say. But no matter.

As to your highlighted bits

Yeah heres some even more perspective

big syke wrote:

Yes they did really well previously. Very extreme restrictions up to and including beatings/caning in public for going outdoors

Wtf? Has has Indian policing methods got to do with the present outbreak?

big syke wrote:

My point Re Indian government. Ireland cannot be compared we will follow WHO and Scientific advise.

So did India ...

big syke wrote:

MY point above

Nope you claimed a big reopening 6 months ago / Christmas. Not so.

https://news.sky.com/story/coronavirus-india-extends-lockdown-by-two-weeks-but-implements-zones-with-different-rules-11982191

big syke wrote:

 Absolute nonsense. Unknown if it has more transmissibility

Yes. Currently under investigation as it is a new variant.

What's concerning scientists about the Indian variant is there appear to be two mutations which may make the vaccines less effective, and may make the virus more transmissible. Scientists are Currently gathering evidence about this.

big syke wrote:

 Absolute number means nothing. yes 8% vs 17% - We have almost double and climbing

Its to do with the percentage of the population vaccinated required for herd immunity. That is currently estimated at 50%. Neither we nor India are anywhere close to that.

big syke wrote:

So has it heppned here? Have people literally passed away on trollys on the street? No it hasnt and wont because we will raeact faster than that joke of a government in India

Yeah nothing at all. In one month we had than 1,000 deaths and 100,000 cases recorded and our health services were reeling.

But if you wish to go down the tit for tat with the tragedy which is unfolding in India because people there thought they could do away with restrictions like some do here - then do so. But your unsupported hyperbole doesn't stand up to scrutiny I'm afraid.

Boggles

big syke wrote: »

I agree about theit leader but it is true. I know for a fact what it has been like in the largest city in India since October and it only gotten worse since the great opening of December. Have you been to India recently or know anyone living there?

There have been large gatherings, and in general

The epidemiology reflects the easing of restrictions, as I offered in the last post.


Now if you have anything to offer in response other than hear say, by all means links it up.

big syke wrote: »

[No one said we cant mention India but when some its hard to comparet India and Ireland with regards to easing outdoor dining and other restirctions that make sense.

Can you not see the difference between the 2 nations? Honestly ?

I didn't compare the 2.

But India is still a very pertinent example of how things can seem "under control" and within 6-8 weeks absolute devastation.

Also an example for the "it's just a flu" brigade.

I have cited numerous examples around Europe where their leaders or regions ignored their scientists, tragic new wave and further restrictions that there was no need for.

Anyway we know the way, the UK and Israel have paved it.

OwenM

lawred2 wrote: »

there's a whiff of puritanism of NPHET... definitely a strong ideological dislike of alcohol...

Definitely, the temperance movement in Ireland is growing. Alcohol action Ireland even tried to spin a reduction in alcohol consumption in a negative light, a 6% reduction is an 'Ocean of alcohol’ pouring into Irish homes since pandemic, says Alcohol Action Ireland

https://alcoholireland.ie/alcohol-consumption-data-2020-disappointing/
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/soci...ures-1.4507455

bear1

Gozunda, I'll ask again.
What would be the appropriate response to this and why?

big syke

gozunda wrote: »

Wtf? Has has Indian policing got to do with the present outbreak?

You said they had low case numbers and i outlined some reasons why - including public beatings. Not sure why you bring up the above

So did India ...

You said "Low rates of fatality and cases led to calls for a reduction of restrictions and mask wearing." Ireland has not and follow WHO/Science not the case for India




Yes. Currently under investigation as it is a new variant.

What's concerning about the Indian variant is there appear to be two mutations which may make the vaccines less effective, and may make the virus more transmissible. Scientists are Currently gathering evidence about this.

Yep agreed. Just up in the air. May make the vaccines as effective, and may make the virus as transmissible

Its to do with the percentage of the population vaccinated required for herd immunity. That is currently estimated at 50%. Neither we nor India are anywhere close to that.

Correct but larger coherts of Irish at risk are now vaccinated.


Yeah nothing at all. In one month we had than 1,000 deaths and 100,000 cases recorded and our health services were reeling.

But were they reeling? Serioud question? I dont think the scens in INdia were seen or could be seen in Ireland

But if you wish to go down the tit for tat with the tragedy which is unfolding in India because people there thought they could do away with restrictions like some do here - then do so. But your unsupported hyperbole doesn't stand up to scrutiny I'm afraid.

I think thats a bit unfair. People in general want an easing of restirctions that make sense. Most do not support what was seen in India in the past few months.

Its not a tit for tat at all its a simple discussion. A relevent one. Regardless of the heartbreaking scenes in India we cannot compare it to ourselves here. We are in a really great position now. India although low cases previously were not in as a good position.

Vacciniations have changed the landscape.

big syke

Boggles wrote: »

The epidemiology reflects the easing of restrictions, as I offered in the last post.


Now if you have anything to offer in response other than hear say, by all means links it up.

Your counter point is literally hear say. My colleagues and family in India are more than hear say


I didn't compare the 2.

But India is still a very pertinent example of how things can seem "under control" and within 6-8 weeks absolute devastation.

Yes all things being equal. Which they arent!

Also an example for the "it's just a flu" brigade.

I have cited numerous examples around Europe where their leaders or regions ignored their scientists, tragic new wave and further restrictions that there was no need for.

Anyway we know the way, the UK and Israel have paved it.

.

gozunda

scamalert wrote: »

cant have circus without the clowns :cool:

Never a truer word has been said here tbf :pac:

Boggles

big syke wrote: »

Your counter point is literally hear say. My colleagues and family in India are more than hear say

The Health Ministry of India declaring the easing of restrictions from February 1st is hear say?

The epidemiology of the situation in India is hear say?

You sure?

normanoffside

Shops, Cinemas, Theatres, Bars and Restaurants are reopening in half of Italy today despite having more than double our number of infections.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/europe/italy-to-relax-covid-restrictions-in-draghi-s-first-gamble-as-pm-1.4547132

big syke

Boggles wrote: »

The Health Ministry of India declaring the easing of restrictions from February 1st is hear say?

The epidemiology of the situation in India is hear say?

You sure?

The epidemiology reflects the easing of restrictions, as I offered in the last post.

charlie14

big syke wrote: »

I think thats a bit unfair. People in general want an easing of restirctions that make sense. Most do not support what was seen in India in the past few months.

Its not a tit for tat at all its a simple discussion. A relevent one. Regardless of the heartbreaking scenes in India we cannot compare it to ourselves here. We are in a really great position now. India although low cases previously were not in as a good position.

Vacciniations have changed the landscape.

It not just that vaccinations have changed the landscape. As the U.K. and Israel have shown it`s the levels of vaccination that have changed the landscape.
There are posters on here whinging that we are not lifting restrictions at the same paces as the U.K. that do not seem to have the slightest idea of the level of vaccinations the U.K. was at before it allowed pubs and restaurants to serve outdoors.

bear1

https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-40274768.html

The logic why funerals can have more people is just stellar.

Boggles

normanoffside wrote: »

Shops, Cinemas, Theatres, Bars and Restaurants are reopening in half of Italy today despite having more than double our number of infections.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/europe/italy-to-relax-covid-restrictions-in-draghi-s-first-gamble-as-pm-1.4547132

Another example of a place that hasn't done terribly well because of non centralized governance.

There is the most pertinent line from the article that I can see.

Daily infection number remains high as experts voice concerns about easing restrictions too soon

Tenzor07

bear1 wrote: »

https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-40274768.html
The logic why funerals can have more people is just stellar.

Crazy made-up science, and sure let's ban anything which happens anyways!

charlie14

normanoffside wrote: »

Shops, Cinemas, Theatres, Bars and Restaurants are reopening in half of Italy today despite having more than double our number of infections.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/europe/italy-to-relax-covid-restrictions-in-draghi-s-first-gamble-as-pm-1.4547132

What was the basis of that decision. Numbers vaccinated, low case numbers, or the just decided to chance it and hope for the best ?

FintanMcluskey

bear1 wrote: »

https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-40274768.html

The logic why funerals can have more people is just stellar.

The confidence is amusing

"What we open now — there's no going back," he told Newstalk.

If Tony tells ye to close it down again ye will close it

Boggles

big syke wrote: »

The epidemiology reflects the easing of restrictions, as I offered in the last post.

Indeed, which coincides with the easing of restrictions in February and not the past 6 months as you stated.

gozunda

big syke wrote: »

...People in general want an easing of restirctions that make sense. Most do not support what was seen in India in the past few months.

yes some also wanted easing in India. And decided to ignore restrictions beyond even what was allowed. Something we do have in common

Its not a tit for tat at all its a simple discussion. A relevent one. Regardless of the heartbreaking scenes in India we cannot compare it to ourselves here. We are in a really great position now. India although low cases previously were not in as a good position.

Again its not comparing as Its simply what has happened in India. And yes India were also in a "great position"

You said they had low case numbers and i outlined some reasons why - including public beatings. Not sure why you bring up the above

Not sure why I bring it up???? So restrictions and mask wearing and social distancing and lockdowns in India had no effect on the pandemic but only some police beatings did? Get away out of that.

You said "Low rates of fatality and cases led to calls for a reduction of restrictions and mask wearing." Ireland has not and follow WHO/Science not the case for India

Take a look at this thread and the screaming about reductions in restrictions etc and in general the constant pressure being put on the government to do so. And India has followed WHO guidelines

Yep agreed. Just up in the air. May make the vaccines as effective, and may make the virus as transmissible

Its not up "in the air". Its under serious investigation

Correct but larger coherts of Irish at risk are now vaccinated.

As for India and India like many other countries are nowhere near herd immunity from vaccination.

But were they reeling? Serioud question? I dont think the scens in India were seen or could be seen in Ireland

Yes hospitals here were reeling with huge numbers of staff out sick with covid and health care resources stretched to their limit. Or have we forgotten that already?

But no eitherway its not a comparison - but is what can happen where restrictions are ignored or rolled back to quickly anywhere in the world .

gozunda

JRant wrote: »

India is the new Brazil, which was the new Chile. It's hard to keep up with where the goalposts are anymore.

Yeah bloody odd stuff to look at whats happening anywhere else in the world.

Its not like its a pandemic or anything@

But reckon those goalposts haven't just moved they've now buried under a large heap of sand with lots of heads in it.

bear1

gozunda wrote: »

Yeah bloody odd stuff to look at whats happening anywhere else in the world.

Its not like its a pandemic or anything@

But reckon those goalposts haven't just moved they've now buried under a large heap of sand with lots of heads in it.

Are you ever going to give your opinion on what should be done and why?
You seem adamant that things should be as slow as possible so I'm genuinely interested in what you'd do.

JRant

charlie14 wrote: »

It not just that vaccinations have changed the landscape. As the U.K. and Israel have shown it`s the levels of vaccination that have changed the landscape.
There are posters on here whinging that we are not lifting restrictions at the same paces as the U.K. that do not seem to have the slightest idea of the level of vaccinations the U.K. was at before it allowed pubs and restaurants to serve outdoors.

Well, we've been told we were only a few weeks behind the UK in terms of vaccinations so let's see what this "roadmap" looks like later in the week. There's a real possibility we'll be 3/4 months behind their opening plans.

JRant

gozunda wrote: »

Yeah bloody odd stuff to look at whats happening anywhere else in the world.

Its not like its a pandemic or anything@

But reckon those goalposts haven't just moved they've now buried under a large heap of sand with lots of heads in it.

Why would the worsening situation in India, or anywhere else for that matter, have any bearing on our reopening plans?
That's the bit that doesn't make a hot of sense.

gozunda

bear1 wrote: »

Are you ever going to give your opinion on what should be done and why? You seem adamant that things should be as slow as possible so I'm genuinely interested in what you'd do.

Already have my friend. But where did you ask?

Again what should be done? Exactly what we are doing which is sitting firmly on the rate of infection whilst we get the biggest vaccination programme in the history of the state rolled out.

Excellent if that works out faster - but if slower then better than wasting all the work and effort we have invested into getting to where we are atm.

gozunda

JRant wrote: »

Why would the worsening situation in India, or anywhere else for that matter, have any bearing on our reopening plans? That's the bit that doesn't make a hot of sense.

Do you think any other countries learned from our own fiasco over the Christmas period and what happened here beyond that as a consequence? Did we learn anything from that and can we or others learn anything from other countries where outbreaks may occur?

Why do you think that countries closed down travel from Ireland when the **** hit the fan here and exactly what is happening with regard to India atm?

GiftofGab

So we were initially told that we didn't want to hospitals over run so we needed a lockdown to flatten the curve. Then told wait until we get the most vulnerable vaccinated. Here we are now with less than 200 people in hospital with Covid, 86 hospitals in the country leaving us with on average less than 2.3 people per hospital. Plus the most vulnerable received their vaccination.

Seriously what the f**k is going on. Open your eyes ans open the damn country and stop failing the future generation.

Billgirlylegs

Beechwoodspark wrote: »

Holohan and co are dead right about how ppl will completely disregard indoor gathering risks

Especially if alcohol is involved

It is none of their business.
Their thoughts are completely private and do not merit being made public
They can offer an opinion to or through the Minister for Health.
The Minister for Health can bring that advice to Government.
The Government then present their decisions in the Dail, to be voted on in public.

What some self important administrator thinks is completely irrelevant to public conversation.

Bit cynical

JRant wrote: »

Well, we've been told we were only a few weeks behind the UK in terms of vaccinations so let's see what this "roadmap" looks like later in the week. There's a real possibility we'll be 3/4 months behind their opening plans.

I would say that's a fair assessment. We'll probably end up being about two months behind the UK in terms of vaccinations. Then if we factor in the greater level of conservatism in our decision making concerning the virus, add another one or two months.

For me the danger will be that if we don't get a significant relaxation of restrictions during the summer months, a natural rising level of cases coming into next winter will mean that no further lifting will occur this side of 2022. At this point people will have largely abandoned the restrictions privately so any measures imposed will disproportionately affect businesses and the economy.

JRant

gozunda wrote: »

Do you think any other countries learned from our own fiasco over the Christmas period and what happened here beyond that as a consequence? Did we learn anything from that and can we or others learn anything from other countries where outbreaks may occur?

Why do you think that countries closed down travel from Ireland when the **** hit the fan here and exactly what is happening with regard to India atm?

I would hope they learned a great deal from the omnishambles our Government and NPHET presided over at Christmas. It was a perfect case study in how not to do it. Shut everything down in the 6 weeks leading up to Christmas, open up while at the same time tell the country you'll be in lockdown again in a couple of weeks.

They created
A: pent up demand for goods and services in what is the busiest commercial time of the year
B: open up those same services 2 weeks before Christmas
C: tell everyone another lockdown is coming

When you spell it out like this it really does show what a calamity they created.

bear1

gozunda wrote: »

Already have my friend. But where did you ask?

Again what should be done? Exactly what we are doing which is sitting firmly on the rate of infection whilst we get the biggest vaccination programme in the history of the state rolled out.

Excellent if that works out faster - but if slower then better than wasting all the work and effort we have invested into getting to where we are atm.

You'd have to scroll back.
So hold firm basically?

Necro

Mod: Troll nuked, thread cleaned up. Don't feed it please and thanks folks.

gozunda

JRant wrote: »

I would hope they learned a great deal from the omnishambles our Government and NPHET presided over at Christmas. It was a perfect case study in how not to do it. Shut everything down in the 6 weeks leading up to Christmas, open up while at the same time tell the country you'll be in lockdown again in a couple of weeks.

They created
A: pent up demand for goods and services in what is the busiest commercial time of the year
B: open up those same services 2 weeks before Christmas
C: tell everyone another lockdown is coming

When you spell it out like this it really does show what a calamity they created.

Certainly I agree management could have been better. Giving in to popular demand for relaxation of restrictions for the Christmas period was a mistake. Though I'm not sure Nphet and the government were in agreement for all of that tbf.

That said another case study - Germany who also who went into lockdown in early December and who gave no exemption over Christmas ended up with a significant rise in the rate of infection once they started to ease back on their restrictions in March.

It seems its not an easy virus to try and negotiate with.

PTH2009

Let's hope they finally tell Tony no thanks we need to get the economy reopen but nope they won't and fear the man to much

Billgirlylegs

Natterjack from Kerry wrote: »

The correct read is that they steered us out of an economic abyss then, and are bringing us out of another now. Neither abyss of their making. There is no other way to see that, other than as quite an impressive double.

"the troika"
"we are where we are"
"is feidir linn"
"kicking the can down the road"

They did in their holes "steered us out of an economic abyss"
They followed almost exactly what FF / Green predecessors had agreed with ECB/IMF.
Clueless, spineless, idiots then.
Clueless, spineless, idiots now.

Agreed it is an impressive, but unsurprising double.