Relaxation of Restrictions, Part X *Read OP For Mod Warnings*

timmyntc

Boggles wrote: »

He can't. That's the point.

Why should anyone be responsible for what people do after they leave?

Is a pub responsible for drink drivers?
Is a bank responsible for what people spend the money they withdraw on?
Is a taximan responsible for what I might do after he drives me somewhere?

What a load of nonsense - its as bad as banning golf because people might meet up afterwards - 0 sense involved. Just pure hysteria.
Its about as valid a statement as boards.ie being responsible for you searching for questionable material on the internet

Boggles

ArthurDayne wrote: »

If this is what we consider to be ambitious, it’s little wonder that people aren’t absolutely hammering the government’s incompetence.

Vaccinate and open up?

Slightly faster than the North is the ambitious bit relative to roll out, but the pertinent bit is the vaccination part.

Of course you have all the easy solutions, you just haven't got around to sharing them yet.

In your own good time.

Boggles

timmyntc wrote: »

Why should anyone be responsible for what people do after they leave?

Is a pub responsible for drink drivers?
Is a bank responsible for what people spend the money they withdraw on?
Is a taximan responsible for what I might do after he drives me somewhere?

What a load of nonsense - its as bad as banning golf because people might meet up afterwards - 0 sense involved. Just pure hysteria.
Its about as valid a statement as boards.ie being responsible for you searching for questionable material on the internet

Never suggested they should, maybe give the post another glance.

But there is a reason public health experts guided in part by behavioral scientists make these hard calls and not a cafe owner looking for publicity, our faceless strangers on the internet that have all the easy solutions.

Better that way, don't you think?

facehugger99

km79 wrote: »

“ Spain will be ready to welcome back tourists in June, the country’s tourism minister has said.
The European Union has previously set out plans for coronavirus vaccine certificates that could be used by UK holidaymakers this summer.

Digital Green Certificates will be accepted as “proof” a person had a Covid-19 jab, received a negative test result or recovered from the virus, according to the European Commission’s proposal.

And Spain says a digital certificate scheme is currently being trialled with a view to a wider rollout in June.
”

Meanwhile we can’t even go to a hotel in our own county

Fantastic to see other countries opening up. It will shame the Irish Government into action. I have my flights booked since January.

It's hard to believe the amount of people who will willingly forgo two years of foreign travel - personally I'm not willing to miss even one - my kids won't stay this young forever and I'm dammed if some Government mandarin will stop me having a family holiday this year.

Heading to Italy and Spin last summer was an eye-opener - complete lack of hysteria around Covid, just sensible precautions with waterparks, restaurants and nightclubs all open for business.

While we were off enjoying ourselves and seeing some great places without the throngs of tourists, I had neighbors in Kildare who canceled their trip in Ireland because the county was locked down in August - more fool them I thought at the time.

I'm increasingly confident that the EU, the UK and the rest of Europe will drag this sorry shower of Irish 'leaders' back to normality over the summer. Let the lockdown clappy-seals continue to hide under their beds - the rest of us will get back to living.

ypres5

facehugger99 wrote: »

Fantastic to see other countries opening up. It will shame the Irish Government into action. I have my flights booked since January.

It's hard to believe the amount of people who will willingly forgo two years of foreign travel - personally I'm not willing to miss even one - my kids won't stay this young forever and I'm dammed if some Government mandarin will stop me having a family holiday this year.

Heading to Italy and Spin last summer was an eye-opener - complete lack of hysteria around Covid, just sensible precautions with waterparks, restaurants and nightclubs all open for business.

While we were off enjoying ourselves and seeing some great places without the throngs of tourists, I had neighbors in Kildare who canceled their trip in Ireland because the county was locked down in August - more fool them I thought at the time.

I'm increasingly confident that the EU, the UK and the rest of Europe will drag this sorry shower of Irish 'leaders' back to normality over the summer. Let the lockdown clappy-seals continue to hide under their beds - the rest of us will get back to living.

Exactly if anyone has hang ups about eating indoors at a pub or restaurant for fear of being manhandled let them eat outside in the pissing rain and leave everyone else be.

Boggles

facehugger99 wrote: »

Fantastic to see other countries opening up. It will shame the Irish Government into action. I have my flights booked since January.
.

Great, as per the post you just quoted, you just need your 'vaccine passport' and you are good to go.

Have a good one.

facehugger99

facehugger99 wrote: »

Fantastic to see other countries opening up. It will shame the Irish Government into action. I have my flights booked since January.

It's hard to believe the amount of people who will willingly forgo two years of foreign travel - personally I'm not willing to miss even one - my kids won't stay this young forever and I'm dammed if some Government mandarin will stop me having a family holiday this year.

Heading to Italy and Spin last summer was an eye-opener - complete lack of hysteria around Covid, just sensible precautions with waterparks, restaurants and nightclubs all open for business.

While we were off enjoying ourselves and seeing some great places without the throngs of tourists, I had neighbors in Kildare who canceled their trip in Ireland because the county was locked down in August - more fool them I thought at the time.

I'm increasingly confident that the EU, the UK and the rest of Europe will drag this sorry shower of Irish 'leaders' back to normality over the summer. Let the lockdown clappy-seals continue to hide under their beds - the rest of us will get back to living.

This is excellent news. I can’t wait to “Vax and go” LOL
Just need to wait for the passport to renew now

timmyntc

Boggles wrote: »

Never suggested they should, maybe give the post another glance.

But there is a reason public health experts guided in part by behavioral scientists make these hard calls and not a cafe owner looking for publicity, our faceless strangers on the internet that have all the easy solutions.

Better that way, don't you think?

Okay seeing as you are engaging in semantics:
- Govt allows us to meet some people outdoors for exercise. Can the Govt regulate what happens before we meet up outside and after?
- Govt arranges mass vaccination centers. Can the Govt regulate what happens before we attend for vaccination and after?
- Govt has allowed schools open. Can the Govt regulate what happens before school and after?
- Govt has allowed supermarkets open. Can the Govt regulate what happens before shopping and after?

Didnt think so. So maybe they shouldnt allow any of this.

timmyntc

Boggles wrote: »

Great, as per the post you just quoted, you just need your 'vaccine passport' and you are good to go.

Have a good one.

Miss something?

Digital Green Certificates will be accepted as “proof” a person had a Covid-19 jab, received a negative test result or recovered from the virus, according to the European Commission’s proposal.

Boggles

timmyntc wrote: »

Okay seeing as you are engaging in semantics:
- Govt allows us to meet some people outdoors for exercise. Can the Govt regulate what happens before we meet up outside and after?
- Govt arranges mass vaccination centers. Can the Govt regulate what happens before we attend for vaccination and after?
- Govt has allowed schools open. Can the Govt regulate what happens before school and after?
- Govt has allowed supermarkets open. Can the Govt regulate what happens before shopping and after?

Didnt think so. So maybe they shouldnt allow any of this.

I've never been served a helping of pints in any of those venues.

Again this why public health guided by behavioral scientists formulate the advice.

I imagine you could nearly guess the rational behind it at a population level, no?

mightyreds

Boggles wrote: »

I've never been served a helping of pints in any of those venues.

Again this why public health guided by behavioral scientists formulate the advice.

I imagine you could nearly guess the rational behind it at a population level, no?

What am I reading if you have a pint in a place the owner of that place has to come to your house after? what will he do exactly tuck you into bed?

The Big Easy

Boggles wrote: »

I imagine he couldn't, primarily because he is not a fúcking duck.

Bizarre.

You should look up Konrad Lorenz and imprinting - fascinating stuff

timmyntc

Boggles wrote: »

I've never been served a helping of pints in any of those venues.

Again this why public health guided by behavioral scientists formulate the advice.

I imagine you could nearly guess the rational behind it at a population level, no?

Supermarkets & off-licenses sell alcohol.
And takeaway pints are still allowed under current guidance.

Also since we were initially talking about a restaurant - i dont know if you know this, but not everyone who goes to a restaurant has to get pissed. Many dont drink at all.

But of course you are more interested in goalpost shifting to defend the govt ad infinitum rather than engage honestly. :pac:

Stheno

Gael23 wrote: »

Hearing hairdressers open from May17th

Yeah mine rang this morning to book me in.

They also think it's the 17th

charlie14

timmyntc wrote: »

Okay seeing as you are engaging in semantics:
- Govt allows us to meet some people outdoors for exercise. Can the Govt regulate what happens before we meet up outside and after?
- Govt arranges mass vaccination centers. Can the Govt regulate what happens before we attend for vaccination and after?
- Govt has allowed schools open. Can the Govt regulate what happens before school and after?
- Govt has allowed supermarkets open. Can the Govt regulate what happens before shopping and after?

Didnt think so. So maybe they shouldnt allow any of this.

So by implication are you saying that you believe there should be no restrictions, never should have been, or are you just engaging in semantics ?

timmyntc

mightyreds wrote: »

What am I reading if you have a pint in a place the owner of that place has to come to your house after? what will he do exactly tuck you into bed?

Anyone who has ever served you a pint is liable for everything you have done in your life up to that point and everything you will do from then on!

funnydoggy

mightyreds wrote: »

What am I reading if you have a pint in a place the owner of that place has to come to your house after? what will he do exactly tuck you into bed?

He'll book you in for a PCR test a few days after

Boggles

timmyntc wrote: »

Also since we were initially talking about a restaurant - i dont know if you know this, but not everyone who goes to a restaurant has to get pissed. Many dont drink at all.

Again it's why experts look at it at a population level.

timmyntc

charlie14 wrote: »

So by implication are you saying that you believe there should be no restrictions, never should have been, or are you just engaging in semantics ?

I believe that restrictions should not be guided by arbitrary what ifs and baseless speculation but instead by evidence.

A restaurateur cannot guarantee his patrons wont spread covid prior to or post attendance in his restaurant is a ridiculous justification for keeping restaurants shut.

ArthurDayne

Boggles wrote: »

Vaccinate and open up?

Slightly faster than the North is the ambitious bit relative to roll out, but the pertinent bit is the vaccination part.

Of course you have all the easy solutions, you just haven't got around to sharing them yet.

In your own good time.

Not sure how may times I have talked about my own thoughts — which for a long time I have made clear are doing the things which are proportionate to not allowing healthcare to collapse. The proportionality argument is not the one the government is following, it is following the “abundance of caution” shtick, which is not about proportionality. I have talked at length before about getting schools back, lifting distance limits and getting construction going again and that these things were happening at far too slow a pace. My views now I have made clear, I do not believe that opening things hairdressers and retail are standing between us and a healthcare collapse — so on a basis of proportionality they should be opened immediately. Pubs and restaurants should be given the chance to reopen with measures in place, and legislation should be amended to provide clarified forms of penalty including clear fixed term closure penalties for premises which are deemed on Garda inspection to be flouting precautions. We are one year on — the legislation can have nuances. The problem of course is that the government feels no pressure to engage in the tiresome task of actually thinking in nuanced terms because no pressure is being exerted on them to do so.

With medical staff, care home residents, and at least a large proportion of the age group most likely to die from Covid vaccinated with at least one shot, there seems little reason to believe that getting openings back to where they have already been during this crisis without any vaccines is going to precipitate the healthcare collapse scenario on which the lockdown was justified to the Irish people.

You think that people don’t suggest solutions because at every juncture you parrot the government’s rationale until their rationale changes — then you parrot the new rationale with equal vigour and goalposts firmly placed in new ground. Remember when I was calling for the 5km limit to be lifted and you were touting its virtues on preventing mass movement of people?

Boggles

timmyntc wrote: »

I believe that restrictions should not be guided by arbitrary what ifs and baseless speculation but instead by evidence.

A restaurateur cannot guarantee his patrons wont spread covid prior to or post attendance in his restaurant is a ridiculous justification for keeping restaurants shut.

It's not up to the "restaurateur" to guarantee anything, that is why these decisions are not his to be made.

This is very basic stuff 13 months in.

gozunda

km79 wrote: »

“ Spain will be ready to welcome back tourists in June, the country’s tourism minister has said.
The European Union has previously set out plans for coronavirus vaccine certificates that could be used by UK holidaymakers this summer.

Digital Green Certificates will be accepted as “proof” a person had a Covid-19 jab, received a negative test result or recovered from the virus, according to the European Commission’s proposal.

And Spain says a digital certificate scheme is currently being trialled with a view to a wider rollout in June.”

Meanwhile we can’t even go to a hotel in our own county

So Spain plan to welcome tourists in June and you want hotels open here now? Okay ...

Meanwhile in Spain ...



Current WHO data for Spain detail high levels (at least 60 per 100 000 population) / increases in the 14-day COVID-19 case notification rates compared to previous.

Fingers crossed they manage to keep up with their vaccination schedule

Boggles

ArthurDayne wrote: »

Not sure how may times I have talked about my own thoughts — which for a long time I have made clear are doing the things which are proportionate to not allowing healthcare to collapse. The proportionality argument is not the one the government is following, it is following the “abundance of caution” shtick, which is not about proportionality. I have talked at length before about getting schools back, lifting distance limits and getting construction going again and that these things were happening at far too slow a pace. My views now I have made clear, I do not believe that opening things hairdressers and retail are standing between us and a healthcare collapse — so on a basis of proportionality they should be opened immediately. Pubs and restaurants should be given the chance to reopen with measures in place, and legislation should be amended to provide clarified forms of penalty including clear fixed term closure penalties for premises which are deemed on Garda inspection to be flouting precautions. We are one year on — the legislation can have nuances. The problem of course is that the government feels no pressure to engage in the tiresome task of actually thinking in nuanced terms because no pressure is being exerted on them to do so.

With medical staff, care home residents, and at least a large proportion of the age group most likely to die from Covid vaccinated with at least one shot, there seems little reason to believe that getting openings back to where they have already been during this crisis without any vaccines is going to precipitate the healthcare collapse scenario on which the lockdown was justified to the Irish people.

You think that people don’t suggest solutions because at every juncture you parrot the government’s rationale until their rationale changes — then you parrot the new rationale with equal vigour and goalposts firmly placed in new ground. Remember when I was calling for the 5km limit to be lifted and you were touting its virtues on preventing mass movement of people?

Again you haven't offered any solutions or methods.

Open everything now and let's see is neither.

Vaccinate and open up is the way to go, the path has been paved.

But contrarians are going to be contrary.

timmyntc

Boggles wrote: »

It's not up to the "restaurateur" to guarantee anything, that is why these decisions are not his to be made.

This is very basic stuff 13 months in.

You havent addressed the content of my post.

Do you believe as you previously stated that restaurants must remain shut because a restaurateur cannot guarantee his patrons wont spread covid prior to or post attendance?

castletownman

ypres5 wrote: »

What restaurants have you been visiting boggles? Sounds like a cheap porno

Boggles doesn't visit restaurants by the sounds of it. Probably detests any form of socialising.

But he sees everything from between the curtains.

charlie14

timmyntc wrote: »

I believe that restrictions should not be guided by arbitrary what ifs and baseless speculation but instead by evidence.

A restaurateur cannot guarantee his patrons wont spread covid prior to or post attendance in his restaurant is a ridiculous justification for keeping restaurants shut.

Funnily enough so do I, and the only evidence I have seen so far to control the spread of this virus has been vaccination by primarily Israel and the U.K. With the U.K. being the one most relevant to Ireland IMHO.
Do you believe we should learn from the experience of the U.K. when it comes to opening up, or should we just do so on speculation ?

growleaves

Boggles wrote: »

It's not up to the "restaurateur" to guarantee anything, that is why these decisions are not his to be made.

This is very basic stuff 13 months in.

Why is restaurateur in inverted commas?

Boggles

timmyntc wrote: »

You havent addressed the content of my post.

Do you believe as you previously stated that restaurants must remain shut because a restaurateur cannot guarantee his patrons wont spread covid prior to or post attendance?

Jesus. Once more.

A "restaurateur" can not guarantee anything, whether that be the ultimate control of an airborne virus or what the population get up to.

That is why it's not his decision to make, and just because he or the poster that highlighted can't see an argument in his logic, doesn't mean there isn't one.

Clear?

timmyntc

charlie14 wrote: »

Funnily enough so do I, and the only evidence I have seen so far to control the spread of this virus has been vaccination by primarily Israel and the U.K. With the U.K. being the one most relevant to Ireland IMHO.
Do you believe we should learn from the experience of the U.K. when it comes to opening up, or should we just do so on speculation ?

We have seen both domestically when we last opened restaurants and across Europe that outdoor cafes & restaurants lead to a very low amount of outbreaks overall. By keeping them closed now in the summer we are actually forcing more people to meet indoors in private homes instead. The data is there, we just have to use it.

timmyntc

Boggles wrote: »

Jesus. Once more.

A "restaurateur" can not guarantee anything, whether that be the ultimate control of an airborne virus or what the population get up to.

That is why it's not his to make, and just because he or the poster that highlighted can't see an argument in his logic, doesn't mean there isn't one.

Clear?

A virologist or public health doctor can not guarantee anything, whether that be the ultimate control of an airborne virus or what the population get up to.

So again - do you believe that a cafe owner's inability to control peoples behaviour is a fair justification to keep that premises closed? Or is it just that you have hard-on for authority and believe that public health doctors are infallible and whatever decision they make is justified simply by the fact that they made it.

Jinglejangle69

facehugger99 wrote: »

Fantastic to see other countries opening up. It will shame the Irish Government into action. I have my flights booked since January.

It's hard to believe the amount of people who will willingly forgo two years of foreign travel - personally I'm not willing to miss even one - my kids won't stay this young forever and I'm dammed if some Government mandarin will stop me having a family holiday this year.

Heading to Italy and Spin last summer was an eye-opener - complete lack of hysteria around Covid, just sensible precautions with waterparks, restaurants and nightclubs all open for business.

While we were off enjoying ourselves and seeing some great places without the throngs of tourists, I had neighbors in Kildare who canceled their trip in Ireland because the county was locked down in August - more fool them I thought at the time.

I'm increasingly confident that the EU, the UK and the rest of Europe will drag this sorry shower of Irish 'leaders' back to normality over the summer. Let the lockdown clappy-seals continue to hide under their beds - the rest of us will get back to living.

What if kids need vaccines for traveling?

facehugger99

Boggles wrote: »

Great, as per the post you just quoted, you just need your 'vaccine passport' and you are good to go.

Have a good one.

Imagine belonging to an organization that actually takes your constitutionally enshrined rights seriously - mad isn't it?

The EU will force the issue and certificates will allow travel to other EU countries - that's our right as citizens. I'll have both my shots by July and will be jetting off in August.

I know it shouldn't, but the thought that it will annoy an few lockdown clappy-seals, is probably going to make it even more enjoyable.

Boggles

timmyntc wrote: »

A virologist or public health doctor can not guarantee anything, whether that be the ultimate control of an airborne virus or what the population get up to.

How many outbreaks has there been associated with indoor dining or drinking in a licensed premise this week?

timmyntc

Boggles wrote: »

How many outbreaks has there been associated with indoor dining or drinking in a licensed premise this week?

None ergo they pose no risk and should be open. :cool:

Boggles

facehugger99 wrote: »

Imagine belonging to an organization that actually takes your constitutionally enshrined rights seriously - mad isn't it?

The EU will force the issue and certificates will allow travel to other EU countries - that's our right as citizens. I'll have both my shots by July and will be jetting off in August.

I know it shouldn't, but the thought that it will annoy an few lockdown clappy-seals, is probably going to make it even more enjoyable.

Why would it annoy anyone if you are fully vaccinate and tested, etc?



Like I said.

Have a good one.

Even if you are fully vaccinated you can still bring back variants of concern, no?

Sharpyshoot

We need a new organisation to control Nphet, government and NIAC. Lets call it NPGIC.

bb1234567

Other countries : need strong reasons and justification to maintain continuation of lockdowns

Ireland: need strong reasons to justify exiting the default lockdown

Boggles

timmyntc wrote: »

None ergo they pose no risk and should be open. :cool:

Indoor hospitality poses no risk?

That would be a remedial view in the absolute extreme.

Again this is why people who are qualified make these tough decisions.

Vaccinate and open up, the path has been paved.

The Big Easy

bb1234567 wrote: »

Other countries : need strong reasons and justification to maintain continuation of lockdowns

Ireland: need strong reasons to justify exiting the default lockdown

Exactly, but many seem happy to have level 5 lockdown as the default response to any risk.

timmyntc

Boggles wrote: »

Indoor hospitality poses no risk?

That would be a remedial view in the absolute extreme.

Again this is why people who are qualified make these tough decisions.

Vaccinate and open up, the path has been paved.

The point you attempted to make: that 0 cases from hospitality and hospitality being closed currently - its not a good one.

From just the data you provided, my point is just as valid.

But again feel free to try and appeal to authority, us Irish love nothing more than being subservient to those in power and follow them unquestionably.

Klonker

charlie14 wrote: »

Funnily enough so do I, and the only evidence I have seen so far to control the spread of this virus has been vaccination by primarily Israel and the U.K. With the U.K. being the one most relevant to Ireland IMHO.
Do you believe we should learn from the experience of the U.K. when it comes to opening up, or should we just do so on speculation ?

So the UK never closed construction or cancelled click and collect. Do you agree these never should have stopped as they only have a negligible effect on our covid rates while the closing/cancelling of these has a large economic and social effect. Since we are comparing with the UK.

Also we are only about a month behind the UK in vaccinating terms and they'll have indoor dining and pubs mid May, do you think we should have the same mid June?

I honestly don't think comparisons with the UK is even good to be honest. The reason they are conservative in their reopening is because they can be because of their vaccine supply. All other EU countries will open up before us even though they have way higher rates and less vaccine take up. You couldn't say the UK was anywhere near the most conservative in 2020, the only thing that's changed is the vaccine supply. If the tables were turned and they were the ones lagging the EU in roll out they certainly wouldn't be waiting until such high numbers are vaccinated to ease their restrictions.

Boggles

timmyntc wrote: »

The point you attempted to make: that 0 cases from hospitality and hospitality being closed currently - its not a good one.

From just the data you provided, my point is just as valid.

Nope.

You claimed public health could not "guarantee anything".

timmyntc wrote: »

But again feel free to try and appeal to authority, us Irish love nothing more than being subservient to those in power and follow them unquestionably.

That's up to you, I advise against though.

A good balanced view, remember BillBob55 on sm that has the easy answers, he doesn't.

Zebra3

So good and all as vaccine passports are gonna be for travelling one day, what’s the story with two weeks away from the job if you’ve been abroad rule? Is this gonna be scrapped when vaccine passports come in?

Richard Hillman

Sharpyshoot wrote: »

We need a new organisation to control Nphet, government and NIAC. Lets call it NPGIC.

I'd prefer Oglaigh na hEireann.

timmyntc

Boggles wrote: »

Nope.

You claimed public health could not "guarantee anything".

They cant guarantee anything. They cant strongarm people into compliance the same as a restaurateur cannot force people to behave before & after they are in his/her establishment.

Plenty of people dont follow public health guidelines - surely you've noticed this on your many walks around Ireland?

Boggles

timmyntc wrote: »

They cant guarantee anything.

Of course they can.

Think about, I've all ready gave you one pertinent example, it's not my opinion.

facehugger99

Zebra3 wrote: »

So good and all as vaccine passports are gonna be for travelling one day, what’s the story with two weeks away from the job if you’ve been abroad rule? Is this gonna be scrapped when vaccine passports come in?

Your workplace has no right to know what you do in your spare time.

if your company want to know if you plan to travel abroad ask them to kindly PFO.

Sawduck

So holidays abroad are looking unlikely again this summer, any chance of holidays in Ireland or even restaurants or pubsopening, or are we looking at another depressing summer while many other countries enjoy life

paddyisreal

gozunda wrote: »

So Spain plan to welcome tourists in June and you want hotels open here now? Okay ...

Meanwhile in Spain ...



Current WHO data for Spain detail high levels (at least 60 per 100 000 population) / increases in the 14-day COVID-19 case notification rates compared to previous.

Fingers crossed they manage to keep up with their vaccination schedule

https://ourworldindata.org/coronavirus-data-explorer

Doing a bit better than us in their vaccine rollout and also once the elderly and vulnerable are vaccinated who gives a **** ?

Spain are obviously not adverse to risk like our over paid, conservative government whom seem intent in dragging this out as long as possible.