Relaxation of Restrictions, Part X *Read OP For Mod Warnings*

paw patrol

paw patrol wrote: »

short answer : cos its the internet.

longer answer: I don't know tbh. But lets try discuss

Sweden wasn't acceptable as a comparison when it suited my (anti lockdown) argument in times gone by. In fact , I recall posters even denying Sweden even existing. :pac:

But you want to debate France.

16hours ago the BBC reports that EVERYTHING bar nightclubs will be open in France. I love a niteclub - at my age i probably shouldn't but I do - but that is acceptable me. VIE LA FRANCE

For your pleasure:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-56934746

Will, future tense

On 19 May, a current 19:00 (17:00 GMT) nightly curfew will be pushed back to 21:00. Cafes and restaurants will be able to reopen outside. Non-essential shops, cinemas, museums and theatres will be able to open, with restrictions on visitors.

gozunda

is_that_so wrote: »

They are going mad up north!


https://www.rte.ie/news/coronavirus/2021/0430/1212957-ni-covid-19/

See that B&Bs and hotels remain closed with the 24th May being "considered" as a possible date for their return

So a week before hotels etc here ...

Graham

paw patrol wrote: »

while we thank Michael Martin profusely for allowing us go to the gym from June 7th.
That's odd.

Which post was that?

Graham

SAMTALK wrote: »

I just don't understand how people can insinuate the Government and NPHET want us under their thumbs, it's all about control and taking away our rights, destroying the country etc, banning alcohol and so on and so on...

Boredom, fear, scaremongering, frustration or just plain trolling.

I don't think anyone genuinely believed restrictions were for any other reason than managing our way through the pandemic.

Boggles

B2021M wrote: »

So the Heineken Cup final is set for Twickenham in May and may feature Leinster and/or Ulster...with fans allowed to attend. Does this include travelling fans and if so what was the point of us not hosting the Euro 2020 matches??

Because Twickenham is in another country and we don't AFAIK base our public health advice during a pandemic around the outcome of a rugby match.

Also

The EPCR is advising fans to adhere to government guidance on travel, meaning that fans would likely be discouraged from travelling to the finals in London from outside of the UK

It was moved from France.

The two European club rugby finals were originally due to be held at the Stade Velodrome in Marseille, but Twickenham Stadium has now been chosen as the host stadium as supporters will be permitted to attend

gozunda

paw patrol wrote: »

And despite all that sh1tstorm , they will have everything open by july
while we thank Michael Martin profusely for allowing us go to the gym from June 7th.
That's odd.

Well maybe. Macron is desperately trying to hold on to popular support whilst promising it all. Lucky for him numbers seem to be going the right way.

While Mr Macron said he hoped the measures would ease across the whole country, an "emergency brake" could be used "in territories where the virus is too present".

France entered a third national lockdown on 3 April, as it battled a surge in cases that threatened to overwhelm hospitals. The daily number of new cases has fallen since then, from around 40,000 to 27,000 on average over the past week.

hatrickpatrick

SAMTALK wrote: »

I just don't understand how people can insinuate the Government and NPHET want us under their thumbs, it's all about control and taking away our rights, destroying the country etc, banning alcohol and so on and so on...

It's like we are the only country dealing with the virus and it's a ploy to a dictatorship where we will be controlled forever

Are you familiar with the term "mission creep"? It basically describes a "sure while we're at it" situation. If you're rewiring your kitchen, you may as well fix the plumbing issues at the same time while you have the walls ripped down.

The social engineering which the government (and various lobby groups) have long desired with regard to alcohol and nightlife are essentially being snuck in through the back door of covid. This is inarguable, in my view. Whether or not you actually agree with such social engineering is irrelevant to the fact that the pandemic can be and is being used to trial it.

Zebra3

SAMTALK wrote: »

I just don't understand how people can insinuate the Government and NPHET want us under their thumbs, it's all about control and taking away our rights, destroying the country etc, banning alcohol and so on and so on...

It's like we are the only country dealing with the virus and it's a ploy to a dictatorship where we will be controlled forever

Why did we lockdown five times longer than Denmark for the same results?

Graham

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

The social engineering which the government (and various lobby groups) have long desired with regard to alcohol and nightlife are essentially being snuck in through the back door of covid. This is inarguable, in my view.

Conspiracy theory nonsense in my view.

I see nothing to suggest alcohol/nightlife restrictions are changing or going to change under the guise of COVID anything.

sporina

so hotels etc reopening June 2nd but outdoor dining (restaurants etc) not till June 7th! - not v convenient for the bank holiday weekend getaway eh?

Graham

sporina wrote: »

so hotels etc reopening June 2nd but outdoor dining (restaurants etc) not till June 7th! - not v convenient for the bank holiday weekend getaway eh?

The weekend getaway goes ahead, packed beer gardens over the bank holiday weekend don't.

sporina

Graham wrote: »

The weekend getaway goes ahead, packed beer gardens over the bank holiday weekend don't.

so why didn't they just hold off reopening hotels etc till the 7th as well?

Doctor Jimbob

Graham wrote: »

Which post was that?

I think it was between the post where someone said they want to let it rip and the one saying they only want things to open so they can go to the pub.

km79

sporina wrote: »

so hotels etc reopening June 2nd but outdoor dining (restaurants etc) not till June 7th! - not v convenient for the bank holiday weekend getaway eh?

Based on my (not very nice ) experience last year the hotel bar and lobby will be absolutely mobbed with non residents
We ended up staying in the room the last night

We have a 3 night stay booked in early July . I hope more premises will be opened by then as it only ends up pushing everyone into one or two bars (hotels ) otherwise

Graham

sporina wrote: »

so why didn't they just hold off reopening hotels etc till the 7th as well?

To give the hotels the benefit of the long weekend trade without that risk that comes with vast amounts of socialising in the early days of restrictions easing.

Obviously I'm just guessing here but it sounds logical.

km79

Graham wrote: »

To give the hotels the benefit of the long weekend trade without that risk that comes with vast amounts of socialising in the early days of restrictions easing.

Obviously I'm just guessing here but it sounds logical.

Everyone will end up in the hotel bar instead of spread around the town bars

Graham

km79 wrote: »

Everyone will end up in the hotel bar instead of spread around the town bars

Maybe. I haven't checked the details, not even sure if they've been published yet but I'm guessing hotel facilities will be for residents only prior to the 7th.

Obviously what happens in reality may be different.

_Kaiser_

Graham wrote: »

Conspiracy theory nonsense in my view.

I see nothing to suggest alcohol/nightlife restrictions are changing or going to change under the guise of COVID anything.

Ah the ridiculous "conspiracy theory" dismissal eh? :rolleyes:

Holohan has a long standing problem with alcohol consumption and has successfully managed to create a two-tier pub system where "wet" pubs (a nonsense term if ever I've heard one) have been discriminated against in favour of "gastro" pubs - and even then he's managed to impose such limits on them that reopening in the current phase probably won't be worthwhile (like the publican on the 6.1news last night talking about his beer garden of 20 seats).

Then you have the Greens and DCC putting in new traffic restrictions everywhere using the "crisis" as a way to push them in (supporting outdoor dining /more cycling etc etc)

And even here we have people arguing that mask wearing as a permanent thing in some settings isn't a big deal and using "de safety" argument :rolleyes:

Feel free now to pick one line out of the above or a "witty" response that deliberately ignores the point now.

OwenM

ArthurDayne wrote: »

And there it is, the deus ex machina of all those who parrot the government’s strategy — to speak out against restrictions is to say “open everything up and let’s see”. It’s a great tool, a handy way of bludgeoning the nuance out of an argument until it resembles the argument you want to hear so you can criticise it with the same blanket responses.

The problem here of course is that all I actually mentioned in my post were things that have all already been open during the Covid crisis — and that was before there was a vaccine. I do not believe in just opening everything up, I simply believe in stripping away the measures that are not necessary to prevent the vista on which lockdown was justified. I believe in the abundance of proportionality, not the abundance of caution — to give businesses a fighting chance of survival, to contribute to economic recovery which will have knock on effects as regards socioeconomic deprivation and indeed poverty, to give young people a chance to get their formative years back on track, to make people more willing to sustain and endure the more necessary measures — and of course to protect life within the boundaries of reasonableness.

I mean, where have your posts about the 5km rule gone? Why aren’t you calling for it to be reinstated? You will of course say that the 5km rule was necessary and that it was simply lifted at the right time — and the right time for you is simply whenever you are told it is the right time, whereby anyone who dared argue that it should have been lifted quicker is merely a contrarian. I of course am a complete contrarian fool for daring to say that the government’s appreciation for when the 5km rule should have been lifted (even if one thinks it never should have been imposed) was later than it should have been — and even more so for believing that they are being too slow on other measures too.

And like the 5km rule, you will quietly pack up your goalposts at each juncture and move them to wherever they need to be so you can keep equating critical thought, and the horrendous audacity of mere silly civilians to question State policy, with contrarianism.

Thank you.

Graham

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

Ah the ridiculous "conspiracy theory" dismissal eh?

Yup

It is the rather obvious basis for dismissing a conspiracy theory.

Boggles

km79 wrote: »

Everyone will end up in the hotel bar instead of spread around the town bars

Are you saying we cannot trust the hotel industry?

km79

Graham wrote: »

Maybe. I haven't checked the details, not even sure if they've been published yet but I'm guessing hotel facilities will be for residents only prior to the 7th.

Obviously what happens in reality may be different.

Residents only
Same as last summer
It won’t be enforced as they need to make money in fairness
It creates a bottle neck
In theory it’s sensible in reality it’s not

km79

Boggles wrote: »

Are you saying we cannot trust the hotel industry?

It’s hard to blame them really as they have lost out on a lot of revenue

_Kaiser_

km79 wrote: »

It’s hard to blame them really as they have lost out on a lot of revenue

What I'm hearing on the radio in the last few days is that they're trying to compensate for that now by charging ridiculously inflated prices.

I can't see that working out too well for them.

Graham

km79 wrote: »

Residents only
Same as last summer
It won’t be enforced as they need to make money in fairness
It creates a bottle neck
In theory it’s sensible in reality it’s not

You could well be right.

When the details are published it will be interesting to see what restrictions are placed on hotels (if any).

RGS

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

Ah the ridiculous "conspiracy theory" dismissal eh? :rolleyes:

Holohan has a long standing problem with alcohol consumption and has successfully managed to create a two-tier pub system where "wet" pubs (a nonsense term if ever I've heard one) have been discriminated against in favour of "gastro" pubs -

The Gastro pub/wet pub fiasco came about because IMO, NPHET didn't understand the licencing laws. IMO NPHET didn't want any pub opening, they were happy to allow restaurants only but were caught with their pants down when publicans pointed out they had separate licence to serve food so were stuck having to allow gastro pubs open.

Boggles

km79 wrote: »

It’s hard to blame them really as they have lost out on a lot of revenue

Moot to the question to be fair.

They are asking to be trusted, they have been screaming for it.

But you think the can't be trusted.

That is the nuance public health have to deal with when making these decisions.

charlie14

JRant wrote: »

Ah, I wouldn't pay too much attention to this "handbrake" they started talking about today. They are trying to stop people from doing what they want around household visits etc and this is the only way they know how. Cases are meaningless, even NPHET must be realising that by now.

Give it a month or two with everything starting to open up and you'll be booking your next trip without a second thought.

The government have all but admitted they are in trouble financially. Unless vaccines don't work on Irish people we won't be going back to lockdown again.

I don`t buy this financial trouble idea. It may have been a consideration, but opening up with case numbers, hospital and I.C.U. admissions rising like we did after Christmas resulting in another "break" like Germany, wasn`t going to do a lot for the economy or peoples confidence.

It was always about the vaccines and at what level to begin phased re-opening. People were complaining we were not at the same level as the U.K. but that has actually worked in our favour.

I don`t believe it is just coincidence that this has been announced over 2 weeks after the U.K. began opening, where present data would show if the U.K. got the level of vaccination wrong, or that re-opening here will be similar to their level when doing so.

Coillte_Bhoy

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

What I'm hearing on the radio in the last few days is that they're trying to compensate for that now by charging ridiculously inflated prices.

I can't see that working out too well for them.

I made a few enquiries on booking.com, in fairness i didnt notice any major price gouging. I had boked a few places provisionally last June weekend so i compared prices, very slight increase, in the 5% region so definitely not inflated

Graham

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

What I'm hearing on the radio in the last few days is that they're trying to compensate for that now by charging ridiculously inflated prices.

I can't see that working out too well for them.

I can't see many hotels having problems filling rooms to be honest even with some of them at eye-watering rates.

SAMTALK

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

Are you familiar with the term "mission creep"? It basically describes a "sure while we're at it" situation. If you're rewiring your kitchen, you may as well fix the plumbing issues at the same time while you have the walls ripped down.

The social engineering which the government (and various lobby groups) have long desired with regard to alcohol and nightlife are essentially being snuck in through the back door of covid. This is inarguable, in my view. Whether or not you actually agree with such social engineering is irrelevant to the fact that the pandemic can be and is being used to trial it.

And if Covid hadnt come along how would they have engineered this ?

SAMTALK

Zebra3 wrote: »

Why did we lockdown five times longer than Denmark for the same results?

I don't know the answer to that but it's funny how comparisions are only made to countries that seem to have done better but ignore countries that were worse

paddyisreal

gozunda wrote: »

See that B&Bs and hotels remain closed with the 24th May being "considered" as a possible date for their return

So a week before hotels etc here ...

As people on here forecast the government s hand forced by Northern Ireland. Had to bring everything forward, I'd say tony and co were cursing them.

Mitch Connor

the idea that the irish government would even be competent enough to engage in social reengineering on this level is just laughable.

It isn't the government trying to kill off alcohol, its the government simply being incompetent.

Occam's razor.

1. the government is a maniacle manipulative evil shadowy force trying to take away your night club.
2. the govenment of career politicians and people who have zero qualifications in the areas they lead, are simply incompetent and don't know how to handle a massive global pandemic.

OH WHICH COULD IT BE?

Graham

charlie14 wrote: »

I don`t buy this financial trouble idea. It may have been a consideration, but opening up with case numbers, hospital and I.C.U. admissions rising like we did after Christmas resulting in another "break" like Germany, wasn`t going to do a lot for the economy or peoples confidence.

It was always about the vaccines and at what level to begin phased re-opening. People were complaining we were not at the same level as the U.K. but that has actually worked in our favour.

I don`t believe it is just coincidence that this has been announced over 2 weeks after the U.K. began opening, where present data would show if the U.K. got the level of vaccination wrong, or that re-opening here will be similar to their level when doing so.

One of the benefits of not being the first is we get to see how different scenarios play out in other countries.

I'm sure governments the world over will be keeping a close watch on the likes of the UK and Israel and tracking the impact of restrictions being relaxed and vaccination numbers increasing.

11521323

Graham wrote: »

One of the benefits of not being the first is we get to see how different scenarios play out in other countries.

I'm sure governments the world over will be keeping a close watch on the likes of the UK and Israel and tracking the impact of restrictions being relaxed and vaccination numbers increasing.

Whether or not vaccines work though, or to what level they work, is largely irrelevant.

If vaccines didn't work as planned, what would we do then? Live perpetually in lockdown cycles forever?

Graham

11521323 wrote: »

Whether or not vaccines work though, or to what level they work, is largely irrelevant.

I suppose you could think that.

I can't imagine why but there you go.

charlie14

paddyisreal wrote: »

As people on here forecast the government s hand forced by Northern Ireland. Had to bring everything forward, I'd say tony and co were cursing them.

Seems if people were forecasting that then they got it wrong.
From all reports they are following the recommendations from "tony and co".

There were some here saying the government would be forced to follow Northern Ireland due to them opening for outdoor dining and pub service but that doesn`t make a lot of sense either.
Outdoor dining and pub service opens today in Northern Ireland, but not until June 7th. here.

paddyisreal

charlie14 wrote: »

Seems if people were forecasting that then they got it wrong.
From all reports they are following the recommendations from "tony and co".

There were some here saying the government would be forced to follow Northern Ireland due to them opening for outdoor dining and pub service but that doesn`t make a lot of sense either.
Outdoor dining and pub service opens today in Northern Ireland, but not until June 7th. here.

hotels are open a week after Northern Ireland now, outdoor dining was July now it's early June and non essential brought forward weeks as well. It's as plainly obvious their hand was forced .
They know well no one in the county border areas is listening to them. I'd say half the cues outside pennies is from the south !

PTH2009

A rise in cases the media all over it like a rash, scaremongering still going on

Bloody covid had plans to visit the Smithwick's Experience tour in Kilkenny but shockingly it has closed permanently

https://www.independent.ie/life/travel/travel-news/kilkennys-award-winning-smithwicks-experience-to-close-its-doorspermanently-40373447.html

charlie14

paddyisreal wrote: »

hotels are open a week after Northern Ireland now, outdoor dining was July now it's early June and non essential brought forward weeks as well. It's as plainly obvious their hand was forced .
They know well no one in the county border areas is listening to them. I'd say half the cues outside pennies is from the south !

When were all these these openings dates for non-essentials and outdoor dinning first announced that have now been brought forward ?
I must have missed that particular announcement.

The real hole in your theory, (and that of others who were predicting that the governments hand would be forced by Northern Ireland), is in outdoor dining and especially outdoor pub service. There is over a 5 week difference.
The reality is it`s to do with the science, not hand forcing.
I would have thought that was obvious at this stage.

paddyisreal

charlie14 wrote: »

When were all these these openings dates for non-essentials and outdoor dinning first announced that have now been brought forward ?
I must have missed that particular announcement.

The real hole in your theory, (and that of others who were predicting that the governments hand would be forced by Northern Ireland), is in outdoor dining and especially outdoor pub service. There is over a 5 week difference.
The reality is it`s to do with the science, not hand forcing.
I would have thought that was obvious at this stage.

Yeah really the science you and a few others here were quoting up to 2 days ago saying we have to wait till we had 50 percent vaccinations done. That fairly went out the window didn't it

Graham

paddyisreal wrote: »

hotels are open a week after Northern Ireland now, outdoor dining was July now it's early June and non essential brought forward weeks as well. It's as plainly obvious their hand was forced

One of the benefits of not being the first is we get to see how different scenarios play out in other countries.

I'd say it's more likely we're influenced by the results from the UK who are several weeks ahead of NI.

It's quite likely we'll see similar reopening patterns repeated across the world.

charlie14

paddyisreal wrote: »

Yeah really the science you and a few others here were quoting up to 2 days ago saying we have to wait till we had 50 percent vaccinations done. That fairly went out the window didn't it

Paddy like a few others you are probably spending to much time here and have become unaware of how the real world is. Presently we are at 30% first dose and 11% second vaccinated.

Myself and a few others have been saying that the science for phased re-opening was there in the U.K. data for anyone who wished to see it.
Their phased re-opening for outdoor dining and outdoor pub service was based on a 50% first dose vaccination level. By June 7th. I`m confident we will have reached that percentage level or even higher.

munchkin_utd

paddyisreal wrote: »

Yeah really the science you and a few others here were quoting up to 2 days ago saying we have to wait till we had 50 percent vaccinations done. That fairly went out the window didn't it

in fairness some of the targets are really far down the line and in the meantime Ireland will be lashing out 250,000 doses a week

A few weeks of that and you have your 50% with at least one dose, especially when the HSE is cooking the numbers and only quoting as a percentage of the adult population !!

charlie14

munchkin_utd wrote: »

in fairness some of the targets are really far down the line and in the meantime Ireland will be lashing out 250,000 doses a week

A few weeks of that and you have your 50% with at least one dose, especially when the HSE is cooking the numbers and only quoting as a percentage of the adult population !!

How so ?
The H.S.E. is quoting vaccinated numbers using the same metric the U.K. did on their 50% for the start of phased re-opening are they not!!

franciscanpunk

has there been any confirmation or leaks of what the closing time for pubs and restuarants will be when they are open again.i wonder will it be normal licensing hours without the extensions or do we all have to be home in our beds again by 11?

FintanMcluskey

Graham wrote: »

One of the benefits of not being the first is we get to see how different scenarios play out in other countries.

I'd say it's more likely we're influenced by the results from the UK who are several weeks ahead of NI.

It's quite likely we'll see similar reopening patterns repeated across the world.

We ain’t scientific pioneers, we’ve been the globes most suppressed & cautious nation for 14 months

Why the change?

The moneys gone

Simple as

And eh, we are reopening to align with the rest of the world, not become more relaxed

munchkin_utd

charlie14 wrote: »

How so ?
The H.S.E. is quoting vaccinated numbers using the same metric the U.K. did on their 50% for the start of phased re-opening are they not!!

I'll quote the boss....

“Biggest day yet in the #CovidVaccine rollout yesterday with 41,500 doses given out,” the Taoiseach tweeted.

It amounts to more than the equivalent of 1 per cent of the adult population of 3.8 million receiving a dose in a single day.

Micheál Martin said 25 per cent of eligible adults have so far received their first dose (948,000) while 10 per cent were fully vaccinated with two doses (381,000).

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/health/coronavirus-five-further-deaths-and-461-new-cases-reported-as-a-quarter-of-adults-get-first-vaccine-1.4546874

For herd immunity you need to count kids and infants, not only "eligible adults"

11521323

Graham wrote: »

I suppose you could think that.

I can't imagine why but there you go.

Conveniently dodged the second half of my question. They are irrelevant in that context.