Department of Health built secret dossiers on children with autism

spaceHopper

What other secret files have been collated by the various departments and governments. I strongly suspect that the parties have their own files too. Funny how dirt against somebody alway some out at just the right time.

Minister for agriculture gets caught drink driving leaked.
Alan Shatter leaks that Mick Wallace was let off using his mobile while driving.
Gerry McCabe was accused of child abuse in files.

pleasant Co.

Jeeeez, good thing there's nothing to worry about with the public services card, nothing like this would ever happen.

spaceHopper

pleasant Co. wrote: »

Jeeeez, good thing there's nothing to worry about with the public services card, nothing like this would ever happen.

I'll never get one but you do know it will be rebranded the covid vaccine digital passport and you will have a unique health identifier number

The Black Oil

My guess because this is Ireland:

• No one from the Dept of Health appeared on Prime Time
• It's unlikely anyone will be sacked
• If they are, they'll get a golden parachute
• Government task force to look into this, 3 years down the road its findings won't be implemented
• Access to disability services will continue to be difficult for families
• Waiting lists will remain very high
• The whistleblower will have to watch his six
• The atrocious recruitment panel system for HSCPs will probably remain in situ

One eyed Jack

Anyone involved in this that tried to keep it under the radar really are some shower of shìtehawks. It’s made even worse by the evasive use of language in statements they now decide to make to the public when their behaviour is exposed -


Robert Watt, the interim Secretary General of the Department of Health, said he wanted to reassure all parents, families and interested parties that the department has never unlawfully held sensitive medical and educational information of children involved in dormant court cases.


Martin seeks review of department’s gathering of dossiers on children


The concerns aren’t about whether or not what they did was lawful or unlawful, why would parents or families care about that, it’s not parents or their families would be held liable for the actions of anyone who tried to cover up their behaviour.

The concerns for the parents and families is that the people and State bodies who were supposed to be providing support to parents and their families were gathering information surreptitiously on the families who had previously entered into litigation to try and get support from the State for their families.

It isn’t just the unethical behaviour or the breach of families trust in a system that’s supposed to support them that’s concerning, it’s also the devious way the people involved tried to cover up their actions, politicians who were responsible for the departments at the time, claiming they knew nothing, and current politicians trying to defend the behaviour by claiming those involved did nothing unlawful. That’s diverting from the point that what they did was unethical.

Calhoun

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Anyone involved in this that tried to keep it under the radar really are some shower of shìtehawks. It’s made even worse by the evasive use of language in statements they now decide to make to the public when their behaviour is exposed -


Robert Watt, the interim Secretary General of the Department of Health, said he wanted to reassure all parents, families and interested parties that the department has never unlawfully held sensitive medical and educational information of children involved in dormant court cases.


Martin seeks review of department’s gathering of dossiers on children


The concerns aren’t about whether or not what they did was lawful or unlawful, why would parents or families care about that, it’s not parents or their families would be held liable for the actions of anyone who tried to cover up their behaviour.

The concerns for the parents and families is that the people and State bodies who were supposed to be providing support to parents and their families were gathering information surreptitiously on the families who had previously entered into litigation to try and get support from the State for their families.

It isn’t just the unethical behaviour or the breach of families trust in a system that’s supposed to support them that’s concerning, it’s also the devious way the people involved tried to cover up their actions, politicians who were responsible for the departments at the time, claiming they knew nothing, and current politicians trying to defend the behaviour by claiming those involved did nothing unlawful. That’s diverting from the point that what they did was unethical.

As i said above this is not surprising to any parent who is engaging in the system. I could give you a few names and the slimeball tactics they pull but don't want to open that can of worms.

Are you really surprised the government of the day defended it? the only way you will see them changing tune is if something worse comes out from it or the minister itself is impacted heavily from the fallout.

The big shocker though is this is not limited to the department of health, the department of education and some of our educators are as slimey and scummy as the people in the HSE. The fact is Ireland is not a very tolerant country when it comes to anyone that does not fit into the "normal" box.

One eyed Jack

Calhoun wrote: »

As i said above this is not surprising to any parent who is engaging in the system. I could give you a few names and the slimeball tactics they pull but don't want to open that can of worms.

Are you really surprised the government of the day defended it? the only way you will see them changing tune is if something worse comes out from it or the minister itself is impacted heavily from the fallout.

The big shocker though is this is not limited to the department of health, the department of education and some of our educators are as slimey and scummy as the people in the HSE. The fact is Ireland is not a very tolerant country when it comes to anyone that does not fit into the "normal" box.

I’ll be honest Calhoun even for what I knew of the way the various Government departments operate and the way organisations like the HSE and TUSLA operate, this was a new low.

I was genuinely surprised reading the article I linked to of the response by Madigan towing the party line rather than demonstrating a bit of humility or compassion for the families involved.

Everything I've seen has the HSE thinking they are golden and acted fully within the law, lets say I believe that (I don't) but what about a doctor handing over medical records without consent, surely you'd have a case to be answered there ? It's a massive breech of trust and privacy.

walshb

What’s the hoopla here all about?

Is what happened not something that can be expected in these type cases?

Claire Byrne had a very articulate medical barrister on today pointing out both sides here....he made absolute sense.

The information gathered is secure. Nobody’s information is being made public here.

This whistleblowing malarky is gone full circle crazy now..

It’ll get to the stage where nobody will do anything of consequence due to fear of someone ratting them out...

OscarMIlde

One eyed Jack wrote: »

It isn’t just the unethical behaviour or the breach of families trust in a system that’s supposed to support them that’s concerning, it’s also the devious way the people involved tried to cover up their actions, politicians who were responsible for the departments at the time, claiming they knew nothing, and current politicians trying to defend the behaviour by claiming those involved did nothing unlawful. That’s diverting from the point that what they did was unethical.

There was also a very interesting slant in all the government replies relating to the gathering of information on over 40 families with DORMANT cases. Obviously the whistleblower found the evidence relating to the dormant cases, as the intelligence gathering is still ongoing. However, as this appears to be standard practice of the government in relation to these cases, it would make you wonder what intelligence gathering was carried out on the now settled cases. That could bring the affected families involved amount to over a hundred cases at least.

Shane Corr, the whistleblower, is a very brave, and very decent man to have put his career on the line to let this injustice be known.

This was psychological warfare against highly vulnerable, highly stressed families. These families were pursuing legal action due to either inadequate, or in the case of many of the adult litigants, non-existent, service provision. These families had all the stress and burden of caring for their autistic children, with little or no state support. They also had the additional stress of the financial burden that would fall upon them if their case failed, and they had to pay legal costs of the state.

The government treated these people not as citizens deserving of support and equal treatment, but as enemies of the state. The fact that this evidence gathering is still ongoing and has been judged as fair game by the HSE and the dept of education shows how far the rot goes.

Heads should roll for this. Any doctors, psychologists, social workers and teachers who broke the confidentiality of their clients should face criminal and professional sanctions. People facing the consequences for these decisions is the only thing that will change this cultural attitude.

Calhoun

One eyed Jack wrote: »

I’ll be honest Calhoun even for what I knew of the way the various Government departments operate and the way organisations like the HSE and TUSLA operate, this was a new low.

I was genuinely surprised reading the article I linked to of the response by Madigan towing the party line rather than demonstrating a bit of humility or compassion for the families involved.

As someone engaged with a human rights solicitor as I said it doesn't surprise me. You have to be so careful when dealing with the HSE as they will use lots of dirty tricks when speaking with them.

I have heard stories where they have had to be forced to the steps of the court house before relenting and providing support they should.

It's all about self preservation of a bloated organization they are so fearful of setting precedent in court and having to pay more on vulnerable children it makes sense for them to go to these levels.

SEPT 23 1989

This is the same state that fought against girls who had very little time left who should have been spending that time with their children and families

OscarMIlde

walshb wrote: »

What’s the hoopla here all about?

Is what happened not something that can be expected in these type cases?

Claire Byrne had a very articulate medical barrister on today pointing out both sides here....he made absolute sense.

The information gathered is secure. Nobody’s information is being made public here.

This whistleblowing malarky is gone full circle crazy now..

It’ll get to the stage where nobody will do anything of consequence due to fear of someone ratting them out...

That's bull****. The department of health can't dip into people's medical files to gain information about them without informing them or obtaining their consent. Also the information was not secure. Shane Corr stumbled across this information in network drives that were accessible to anyone who worked in that department. This is information, gathered by social workers, doctors, and psychologists under the understanding that it remains confidential, being shared surreptitiously within and between government departments for the sole intent of gaining an advantage in litigation cases.

Imagine you were a parent of an autistic child. Your child has significant behavioural issues, has no language and cannot communicate what is wrong. He has no service provision as officially he is now an adult and no longer has any educational needs. Either you or your spouse needs to give up work full time in order to care for them.
You take action against the state to try and obtain a service for your child. While undertaking this action you are aware that the state is fighting these battles tooth and nail, hoping to not set any precedents forcing them to provide services to children like yours. You are aware that if your case fails you may be liable to pay all costs, and could lose everything. You decide to abandon the legal action.
Your child's conditions worsens. They spend hours every day shouting and wailing. Your marriage begins to suffer as you and your spouse struggle with the financial, emotional, and social burden of caring for your child. You attend counselling sessions to try and improve your marriage and cope with the stress.

Imagine learning that as you poured your heart out and laid bare your life in therapy sessions that your counseler was sharing your personal information with the government in order to use this information against you in any further legal action you may take.

Because this isn't some imaginary tale. This is exactly the type of information sharing that was detailed in that programme. This isn't normal information exchange. This is Stasi style dossiers on people who were merely trying to advocate and fight for their children.

spaceHopper

I think Calhoun spelled it out clearly to but.

walshb wrote: »

What’s the hoopla here all about?

hidden dirty tricks campaign, doctors know they shouldn't hand over files but fear what the department will do to them in revenge if they don't

Is what happened not something that can be expected in these type cases?

No it very much isn't what you say to your priest, doctor and solicitor is totally private

Claire Byrne had a very articulate medical barrister on today pointing out both sides here....he made absolute sense.

What did he say, they didn't break the law, they failed to get consent to gather the data that's a breach of GDPR

They filed to inform the families that they had the data so they had no opportunity to see and correct any mistake in the data. Again a breach of GDPR

The information gathered is secure. Nobody’s information is being made public here.

Anybody in the department could access the data, that's not secure again a breach of GDPR. This is a small country we have no idea who looked at the data and if they knew any of the families involved.

This whistleblowing malarky is gone full circle crazy now..

In the morning I'll be sober you will still be....

Calhoun

https://m.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/revealed-department-ofhealths-top-official-called-head-of-rteahead-of-tv-expose-on-dossier-40245321.html

Update on this story, shows you the level these people will go.

As pointed by people elsewhere there was more than likely a threat with the above conversation. As there is prison term.rrkated to state secrets.

crossman47

spaceHopper wrote: »

I'll never get one but you do know it will be rebranded the covid vaccine digital passport and you will have a unique health identifier number

Which we should have - it would have made the vaccine roll out so much easier.

spaceHopper

crossman47 wrote: »

Which we should have - it would have made the vaccine roll out so much easier.

They've never had problems accessing my records with name date of birth. Lately the GP asked for my PPS, not sure why.

There is no need for a new number, a PPS would do.

pleasant Co.

pleasant Co. wrote: »

Jeeeez, good thing there's nothing to worry about with the public services card, nothing like this would ever happen.

spaceHopper wrote: »

I'll never get one but you do know it will be rebranded the covid vaccine digital passport and you will have a unique health identifier number

walshb wrote: »

What’s the hoopla here all about?

Is what happened not something that can be expected in these type cases?

Claire Byrne had a very articulate medical barrister on today pointing out both sides here....he made absolute sense.

The information gathered is secure. Nobody’s information is being made public here.

This whistleblowing malarky is gone full circle crazy now..

It’ll get to the stage where nobody will do anything of consequence due to fear of someone ratting them out...

How would most people feel if their doctor/psychiatrist, rather than acting in your best interest and treat your illness was compiling a dossier of information to be used against you at a later stage in court proceedings?

On the flip side, there's a certain contradiction between people who get outraged over the state collecting medical information on it's citizens in an instance like this but at the same time are in full support of Health ID, vaccine passport or whatever name they decide to put on it.

In 2017, there was outrage at the idea Public Services Card being mandatory to access services . Three years later and we are now discussing the idea of a health certificate not only to access services but to participate in society???

Water John

The Data Protection Commissioner (DPC) is launching an investigation:
https://www.thejournal.ie/dpc-data-watchdog-department-of-health-children-with-autism-5395664-Mar2021/

Holding info like vaccination schedule is quite different than gathering physc, family and educational Reports to build a hostile dossier.

AndrewJRenko

spaceHopper wrote: »

They've never had problems accessing my records with name date of birth. Lately the GP asked for my PPS, not sure why.

There is no need for a new number, a PPS would do.

How confident are you that you know enough about this topic to speak definitively on the 'no need for a unique health identifier' compared to the folks who've worked on this issue for years now?

spaceHopper

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

How confident are you that you know enough about this topic to speak definitively on the 'no need for a unique health identifier' compared to the folks who've worked on this issue for years now?

I've been in and out of hospitals, GP and blood bank for the last few years and I've never had to give anything other than my Name, address DOB. For the blood bank they ask for photo ID but they are a different case as somebody is receiving you blood.

I already have a PPS number and if it's good enough for revenue then it has to be sufficient for everybody else.

If you tried to being out a national ID card here nobody would allow it but if you bring out a public service card for SW then expand it out and grow the scope of it, well they nearly got way with it.

Telephone calls between Solicitors and suspects been taped and monitored.
Alan Shatter being feed information from the Garda commissioner about a TD
Garda McCabe being accused of child abuse "accidently"
Clare Daly TD stopped for making an illegal right turn get breathalysed and makes it into the papers.
A minister caught drink driving and trying to dodge a checkpoint gets published.
Public service card
Destruction of taped testimony from the mother and baby homes, sealing of the records, changing of testimony
Secret files on Children with Autism.

It's a right little state we live in

I genuinely believe that each party and probably several arms of the state have file on people in the public eye and their families or for one reason or another such as the Autistic kids and their families.

Water John

Water John wrote: »

The Data Protection Commissioner (DPC) is launching an investigation:
https://www.thejournal.ie/dpc-data-watchdog-department-of-health-children-with-autism-5395664-Mar2021/

Holding info like vaccination schedule is quite different than gathering physc, family and educational Reports to build a hostile dossier.

Holding vaccine info versus mandating vaccination to access services and move freely is also quite different.

AndrewJRenko

spaceHopper wrote: »

I've been in and out of hospitals, GP and blood bank for the last few years and I've never had to give anything other than my Name, address DOB. For the blood bank they ask for photo ID but they are a different case as somebody is receiving you blood.

I already have a PPS number and if it's good enough for revenue then it has to be sufficient for everybody else.
.

Current experiences in hospital tell you precisely nothing about the value and importance of the unique health identifier,, given the current poor levels of integration of health systems that the identifier can provide.

https://www.ehealthireland.ie/a2i-hids-programme/individual-health-identifier-ihi-/

I'm no expert on the issue, but I'd suggest that the teams who spend their professional careers working on this facility might know a bit more about it than the person who's been in hospital a few times.

spaceHopper

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Current experiences in hospital tell you precisely nothing about the value and importance of the unique health identifier,, given the current poor levels of integration of health systems that the identifier can provide.

https://www.ehealthireland.ie/a2i-hids-programme/individual-health-identifier-ihi-/

I'm no expert on the issue, but I'd suggest that the teams who spend their professional careers working on this facility might know a bit more about it than the person who's been in hospital a few times.

So then let then use my PPS number and stop wasting money forcing another number on me.

They abused the public service card, tried to bring out a national ID card by stealth got their ass handed to them by the DPC. Now they want this new number with a card to follow but you reap what you sow and after the public service card I won't be getting one.

AndrewJRenko

spaceHopper wrote: »

So then let then use my PPS number and stop wasting money forcing another number on me.

They abused the public service card, tried to bring out a national ID card by stealth got their ass handed to them by the DPC. Now they want this new number with a card to follow but you reap what you sow and after the public service card I won't be getting one.

It's nothing to do with the PSC card. Don't cut off your nose to spite your face.

cee_jay

spaceHopper wrote: »

So then let then use my PPS number and stop wasting money forcing another number on me.

They abused the public service card, tried to bring out a national ID card by stealth got their ass handed to them by the DPC. Now they want this new number with a card to follow but you reap what you sow and after the public service card I won't be getting one.

The PSC is basically your PPSN though?
The PSC basically allows approved services use your PPSN to get only the information required for the service you are accessing. So in hospital for example, you have said they ask for your name and DOB. PSC card makes sure they get the right information for this, just based on your PPSN.
I would argue the use of the PSC could actually cut down on data breaches as upfront only the information legally allowed to be shared is outlined, and that is the only information that would ever be shared.

spaceHopper

cee_jay wrote: »

The PSC is basically your PPSN though?
The PSC basically allows approved services use your PPSN to get only the information required for the service you are accessing. So in hospital for example, you have said they ask for your name and DOB. PSC card makes sure they get the right information for this, just based on your PPSN.
I would argue the use of the PSC could actually cut down on data breaches as upfront only the information legally allowed to be shared is outlined, and that is the only information that would ever be shared.

If they are essentially the same thing then we don't need the PSC, add the features need to the PPSN. THe PSC was introduce with one reason stated then became necessary for everything suddenly, they tried to make it a requirement for a driving license and passport. They also introduce biometric data collection to
it after it was introduced.

https://www.ndls.ie/images/Documents/PSC%20web%20page%20text%20for%20NDLS.pdf

(U-Turn on driving license https://www.thejournal.ie/psc-driving-licence-3926469-Mar2018/ )

https://psc.gov.ie/passport-service-announces-new-measures-to-combat-fraud-and-identity-theft-2/

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/facial-recognition-used-in-public-services-card-programme-department-says-1.4170870

cee_jay

I'm afraid of dragging this thread off topic, but forget the actual PSC card - the service is MyGovID https://www.mygovid.ie/en-IE/HowSecureIsIt and the PSC is just a way of verifying you are who you say you are.
The use of MyGovID is very clear on what information can be passed between public service bodies - so if I am going for Health services, this is the information they are allowed to collect based on your PPSN. It enforces Data Protection, rather than just leaving it open to abuse.

Treppen

It's kind of sad that when one private person acts underhand a thread can get 2,500 posts.

But when a state department can collude against children and their families by appropriating personal data it's not as outrageous.

I reckon this story would have gotten more traction if the kids were all from fee charging schools.

spaceHopper

cee_jay wrote: »

I'm afraid of dragging this thread off topic, but forget the actual PSC card - the service is MyGovID https://www.mygovid.ie/en-IE/HowSecureIsIt and the PSC is just a way of verifying you are who you say you are.
The use of MyGovID is very clear on what information can be passed between public service bodies - so if I am going for Health services, this is the information they are allowed to collect based on your PPSN. It enforces Data Protection, rather than just leaving it open to abuse.

You're right we are going way off topic but,
This is a thread about the government abusing its data collection powers and you don't see that the PSC is a very dangerous thing.

Where do you stand on the DOH collecting data on autistic children, on their parents and siblings? Right or wrong?

The DPC took them to task on an number of things and she was right.

Before the DPC commissioner became involved, the ICCL have raised concerns but were classed as hysterical.

The legislation it's based on has been amended 74 times it's near impossible to understand.

The government exempted it's self from much of GPDR regulations.

The Auditor general office raised that there was never a business case set out for the card.

It's stopped 4 or 5 million if fraud, it cost 60 million.

There is no over site of what is done with data or how well it is secured.

The DPC's statement on it is well worth reading, even just the first half

https://www.dataprotection.ie/en/news-media/press-releases/dpc-statement-matters-pertaining-public-services-card

If nobody opposed the card we would have a national ID card by stealth.