Private school teachers prioritised for vaccinations

radiotrickster

Has anyone any idea who will take on the vaccinating of Beacon patients and take their supply of the vaccines? Or who already has taken the vaccines?

Princess Calla

Beasty wrote: »

The thing we don't know is are there other cases that have not been made public

I'd imagine there are a few gp's that have given doses to spouses and spouses of the secretary , immediate family etc who thought no harm as the hse won't check/ hasn't the resources to check up on every single dose.

There's probably others that looked after their buddies/business interests.

I do think it's either foolishness or arrogance for the big hospitals to break away from protocol especially after the Coombe....way too many eyes and possible whistleblowers.

Cyrus

Princess Calla wrote: »

No there's no benefit whatsoever in getting the vaccine, none, absolutely none.

With that in mind I'm not sure why they felt the need to skip the queue or keep it secret from their colleagues. Or indeed get the vaccine at all.

Exactly thanks for clarifying .

Cyrus

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Apart from the benefit of not dying of Covid and not getting long Covid and not getting Covid, you're absolutely right.

Chances of a fit and healthy teacher of working age dying of COVID is tiny , do you worry about getting COVID and having serious health issues ? Can’t say I do personally. Nor should I given my age and general health.

Cyrus

am_zarathustra wrote: »

There is a benefit, they can meet other vaccinated people inside or outside once they are fully vaccinated, which they will be. This could be very beneficial for someone with elderly parents.

Good point I forgot about that although I did say have a vaccine so they won’t qualify for that just yet

Finty Lemon

Ireland is 3rd in EU for cumulative rate of vaccination, behind Malta and Hungary (who are using the Russian product)
ECDC numbers April 2021

Our first vaccine rates are higher than Denmark, Sweden, France, Germany, Italy, Netherlands, Belgium, Norway, Austria, Portugal.
Finland has more 1st vaccinations done but only 2% of second shots (they went for a widespread first shot due to their recent spike and lock-down).

So despite the messing by a small number of private individuals taking personal liberties with supplied vaccines, Ireland is doing comparatively well with roll-out. Of course this may not suit everyone in media or politics to go by the numbers, they prefer scare-mongering and cheap catchphrases.

Comparisons with the UK need to take into account that BJ's government fast-tracked approval to get a 3 week head-start on the EU, plus used the product contrary to label by changing schedule of booster shots to get more product into arms to boost numbers

steddyeddy

Cyrus wrote: »

Exactly thanks for clarifying .

You're ignoring the glaringly obvious point that they got a vaccine of at the expense of those who have a much larger health risk associated with not getting it.

steddyeddy

Finty Lemon wrote: »

Ireland is 3rd in EU for cumulative rate of vaccination, behind Malta and Hungary (who are using the Russian product)
ECDC numbers April 2021

Our first vaccine rates are higher than Denmark, Sweden, France, Germany, Italy, Netherlands, Belgium, Norway, Austria, Portugal.
Finland has more 1st vaccinations done but only 2% of second shots (they went for a widespread first shot due to their recent spike and lock-down).

So despite the messing by a small number of private individuals taking personal liberties with supplied vaccines, Ireland is doing comparatively well with roll-out. Of course this may not suit everyone in media or politics to go by the numbers, they prefer scare-mongering and cheap catchphrases.

Comparisons with the UK need to take into account that BJ's government fast-tracked approval to get a 3 week head-start on the EU, plus used the product contrary to label by changing schedule of booster shots to get more product into arms to boost numbers

An equivalent statement would be "there's huge amounts of people who don't break the law do why worry about those who do"?

I find this is like arguing with Brexit or Trump supporters. You'll have people who simply ignore corruption and accuse those who care about it as scare-mongering.

The fact vaccines are being distributed does not negate the fact that teachers in the same school as the CEO's children were prioritised over cancer victims.

I feel that when I worked in a hospital I could simply move you or your family down the waiting list with the excuse "well most people are getting treated so I don't see the problem".

Eggs For Dinner

Cyrus wrote: »

Chances of a fit and healthy teacher of working age dying of COVID is tiny , do you worry about getting COVID and having serious health issues ? Can’t say I do personally. Nor should I given my age and general health.

And here is the nub of the whole issue. Those who are unlikely to die or suffer serious effects of Covid, not worrying about it sufficiently to see that they are the very ones who will pass it on to others who are vulnerable.

Life is not all about you!!!

Cyrus

Eggs For Dinner wrote: »

And here is the nub of the whole issue. Those who are unlikely to die or suffer serious effects of Covid, not worrying about it sufficiently to see that they are the very ones who will pass it on to others who are vulnerable.

Life is not all about you!!!

Speak for yourself I can be unconcerned about getting COVID and still follow the guidelines . They are mutually exclusive concepts.

steddyeddy

Cyrus wrote: »

Speak for yourself I can be unconcerned about getting COVID and still follow the guidelines . They are mutually exclusive concepts.

You have been speaking for yourself and you have repeatedly downplayed the guidelines.

Cyrus

steddyeddy wrote: »

You have been speaking for yourself and you have repeatedly depended on downplayed the guidelines.

In English?

steddyeddy

Cyrus wrote: »

In English?

Fixed.

First Up

steddyeddy wrote:

The fact vaccines are being distributed does not negate the fact that teachers in the same school as the CEO's children were prioritised over cancer victims.

There's a touch of Groundhog Day about this but the question has to be asked; if the HSE left vaccines unused in the Beacon, should they not be the ones explaining why they didnt find cancer victims to give them to?

And a supplementary question; if vaccines were due to expire in less than two hours, why would the Beacon be expected to find deserving users when the HSE couldn't?

Cyrus

steddyeddy wrote: »

You have been speaking for yourself and you have repeatedly downplayed the guidelines.

We are speaking about different guidelines I assume as I never downplayed the ones applicable to the public.

Finty Lemon

steddyeddy wrote: »

An equivalent statement would be "there's huge amounts of people who don't break the law do why worry about those who do"?

I find this is like arguing with Brexit or Trump supporters. You'll have people who simply ignore corruption and accuse those who care about it as scare-mongering.

The fact vaccines are being distributed does not negate the fact that teachers in the same school as the CEO's children were prioritised over cancer victims.

I feel that when I worked in a hospital I could simply move you or your family down the waiting list with the excuse "well most people are getting treated so I don't see the problem".

Agree that the actions of Bracon management were very wrong and need to be actioned on. But their actions do not prove elitism, privilege or institutional bias. They were a solo run that was in clear breach of guidelines laid down.
It should not be used to erode public confidence in a fair and relatively well run public vaccination process.

FishOnABike

Another supplementary question. If you know from earlier in the day that a number of candidates have been double booked elsewhere (and it seems a certain percentage of no shows is common) why would you make up the vaccine solution hours before it might be needed?

Treppen

First Up wrote: »

There's a touch of Groundhog Day about this but the question has to be asked; if the HSE left vaccines unused in the Beacon, should they not be the ones explaining why they didnt find cancer victims to give them to?

And a supplementary question; if vaccines were due to expire in less than two hours, why would the Beacon be expected to find deserving users when the HSE couldn't?

Still at it I see, yes blame everyone else to deflect from the issue.

First Up

FishOnABike wrote: »

Another supplementary question. If you know from earlier in the day that a number of candidates have been double booked elsewhere (and it seems a certain percentage of no shows is common) why would you make up the vaccine solution hours before it might be needed?

The Beacon knew nothing about double bookings. It seems the HSE only realised it after the Beacon reported the no shows.

Anyone dispensing vaccines will do so as quickly as possible, which means having them ready. Some no shows may be inevitable but 200 is outside the statistical range.

First Up

Treppen wrote: »

Still at it I see, yes blame everyone else to deflect from the issue.

Yes, I'm still pointing out the obvious.

caveat emptor

It's almost as if there is a concerted attempt to justify this. Weird opinion to hold. Everyone knows it was wrong. No justifying it.

steddyeddy

First Up wrote: »

Yes, I'm still pointing out the obvious.

But it's not obvious. No one is saying they should have been wasted.

First Up

caveat emptor wrote:

It's almost as if there is a conceded attempt to justify this. Weird opinion to hold. Everyone knows it was wrong. No justifying it.

I'm not trying to justify it but I dispute it being described as corruption or the emotive stuff about cancer patients being by-passed.

The Beacon made an expedient decision after being let down twice by the HSE.

The investigation will show if it was anything more than poor judgement under pressure.

caveat emptor

First Up wrote: »

I'm not trying to justify it but I dispute it being described as corruption or the emotive stuff about cancer patients being by-passed.

The Beacon made an expedient decision after being let down twice by the HSE.

The investigation will show if it was anything more than poor judgement under pressure.

In fairness the investigation will show whatever they want to be shown.

First Up

caveat emptor wrote:

In fairness the investigation will show whatever they want to be shown.

Ah, another open mind on Boards.

caveat emptor

First Up wrote: »

Ah, another open mind on Boards.

How open is your mind? most people know full well that paid for, internal investigation by a corporate lawyer is nothing more than window dressing.

Princess Calla

First Up wrote: »

I'm not trying to justify it but I dispute it being described as corruption or the emotive stuff about cancer patients being by-passed.

The Beacon made an expedient decision after being let down twice by the HSE.

The investigation will show if it was anything more than poor judgement under pressure.

But why pick that school....what was/is so special about that school.

If you want to go the school route why not pick a school on your doorstep.

Contact details are easy to find, any secretary /personal assistant worth their salt would have them within minutes....you can walk to some of the local schools within minutes.

So again leaving the emotive stuff about cancer patients being bypassed aside, I ask the question what was/is so special about this school that it was chosen?

I will follow up with the question what was/is so special about the 20 teachers chosen and why the secrecy around it?

steddyeddy

First Up wrote: »

I'm not trying to justify it but I dispute it being described as corruption or the emotive stuff about cancer patients being by-passed.

The Beacon made an expedient decision after being let down twice by the HSE.

The investigation will show if it was anything more than poor judgement under pressure.

So cancer patients attending and living near the Beacon were lying about being passed over?

FishOnABike

First Up wrote: »

The Beacon knew nothing about double bookings. It seems the HSE only realised it after the Beacon reported the no shows.

Anyone dispensing vaccines will do so as quickly as possible, which means having them ready. Some no shows may be inevitable but 200 is outside the statistical range.

City West had approx 500 no shows out of 1300 scheduled vaccinations but didn't have to find teachers in their CEO's children's school to give 'excess' doses to.

HSE chief executive Paul Reid has denied that any doses were wasted: "You don't go opening all these vials, and then have a scurry around at the end of the day to use the vials, you organised the vials, and the administration of the vials as your day is progressing so you don't go piercing vials for 572 people, you do it as a is progressing so it wouldn't be all that waste. "

Having them ready is as simple as removing a vial from the fridge and wiping the top of the vial with an alcohol swab.

The vial needs to be used within six hours of the seal being broken when it is pierced by needle drawing the first dose from the vial.

The no show rate should have been discernable during the course of the day. Unless you want to have 'excess' doses at the end of the day, there is no reason why vials should be lying around for approaching six hours.

Enzokk

First Up wrote: »

I'm not trying to justify it but I dispute it being described as corruption or the emotive stuff about cancer patients being by-passed.

The Beacon made an expedient decision after being let down twice by the HSE.

The investigation will show if it was anything more than poor judgement under pressure.

So let me get this right, you are okay with the CEO of Beacon bypassing the guidelines he was supposed to follow, miss out local teachers that would have been just as worthy to receive the vaccines and are probably closer to the hospital to receive their dose and decide to offer the vaccines to the private school where his children go to, all because the HSE made double bookings?

Because had he given the vaccines to local teachers where he had no involvement it would have still been a breach of guidelines, but at least it would have been understood. What doesn't seem to compute is not that he found teachers for these vaccines, its that he found teachers at the fee paying school where his children go to. That is the problem here, not that the HSE screwed up but the decision he took on who would be worthy of these vaccines.

pjohnson

First Up wrote: »

The Beacon knew nothing about double bookings. It seems the HSE only realised it after the Beacon reported the no shows.

Anyone dispensing vaccines will do so as quickly as possible, which means having them ready. Some no shows may be inevitable but 200 is outside the statistical range.

First Up wrote: »

Yes, I'm still pointing out the obvious.

Ehhh for someone "pointing out the obvious" you dont appear to have realised that in order to actually dispense them as quickly as possible would mean that it would go to the people nearest the location who had yet to recieve one.

First Up

Princess Calla wrote:

But why pick that school....what was/is so special about that school.


If you want to go the school route why not pick a school on your doorstep.

A fair question. Expedience may have been part of it - knowing who to call etc - but it obviously suited the CEO too.

It was a short cut to a solution when time was short. Enough for the permanently outraged but let's see what else McCague turns up.

caveat emptor

First Up wrote: »

A fair question. Expedience may have been part of it - knowing who to call etc - but it obviously suited the CEO too.

It was a short cut to a solution when time was short. Enough for the permanently outraged but let's see what else McCague turns up.

He'll turn up what he is told to turn up. That's the point of paying for an investigation. Slight conflict of interest.

First Up

pjohnson wrote:

Ehhh for someone "pointing out the obvious" you dont appear to have realised that in order to actually dispense them as quickly as possible would mean that it would go to the people nearest the location who had yet to recieve one.

Closest doesn't necessarily mean quickest. St Gerard's to the Beacon is about 10 minutes. How much faster than that could other schools have been contacted and organised for vaccination?

Cluedo Monopoly

First Up wrote: »

A fair question. Expedience may have been part of it - knowing who to call etc - but it obviously suited the CEO too.

It was a short cut to a solution when time was short. Enough for the permanently outraged but let's see what else McCague turns up.

I doubt you actually believe what you post.

Princess Calla

First Up wrote: »

Closest doesn't necessarily mean quickest. St Gerard's to the Beacon is about 10 minutes. How much faster than that could other schools have been contacted and organised for vaccination?

Well I think most practically minded people would think staff in the school I can see from my office window, will arrive quicker than staff from a school a motorway drive away.

So why did he pick this particular school.... applying the "reasonableness test" what would a completely impartial person* do....pick the school they can physically see or pick one miles away?

*Leaving aside a completely impartial person would just follow the given guidelines.

First Up

Cluedo Monopoly wrote:

I doubt you actually believe what you post.

I'm happy to see you are capable of doubt. Your usual style is dogged certainty.

First Up

Princess Calla wrote:

Well I think most practically minded people would think staff in the school I can see from my office window, will arrive quicker than staff from a school a motorway drive away.

There's apartments even closer. Why not them if distance was the only consideration?

The had less than two hours until the vaccines expired to decide what to do with them. We have been dissecting their decision for a week. Most posters here have made up their minds. I'll wait until the whole picture is clear.

AndrewJRenko

First Up wrote: »

I'm not trying to justify it but I dispute it being described as corruption or the emotive stuff about cancer patients being by-passed.

The Beacon made an expedient decision after being let down twice by the HSE.

The investigation will show if it was anything more than poor judgement under pressure.

There should have been no pressure involved. This scenario was entirely predictable, and if you're going to take on responsibility for vaccination, that includes responsibility for dealing with a small number of left overs. This should have been part of the plan, and not a pressure situation.

First Up wrote: »

Closest doesn't necessarily mean quickest. St Gerard's to the Beacon is about 10 minutes. How much faster than that could other schools have been contacted and organised for vaccination?

The school that is three minutes walk away could clearly have been done faster, but weren't chosen for obvious reasons.

First Up

AndrewJRenko wrote:

There should have been no pressure involved. This scenario was entirely predictable, and if you're going to take on responsibility for vaccination, that includes responsibility for dealing with a small number of left overs. This should have been part of the plan, and not a pressure situation.

200 no shows; then the HSE give back 5 vaccines, then give back 15 more. One hour 45 minutes before they expire.

A pity they didn't call you for advice.

Cyrus

First Up wrote: »

200 no shows; then the HSE give back 5 vaccines, then give back 15 more. One hour 45 minutes before they expire.

A pity they didn't call you for advice.

In fairness we appear to have a number of world class health care administrators posting here , the future for the hse is bright !

Princess Calla

First Up wrote: »

There's apartments even closer. Why not them if distance was the only consideration?

The had less than two hours until the vaccines expired to decide what to do with them. We have been dissecting their decision for a week. Most posters here have made up their minds. I'll wait until the whole picture is clear.

Exactly why didn't he pick them , or one of the local businesses , or the local dunnes.

Why pick the school?, what was the advantage of picking a school miles away.

Why break procedure and not follow guidelines?

Why if you know there's an admin problem do you continue opening all the vials .....

Why in his mind , was contacting that school the best course of action? What was the benefit of them getting vaccinated above everyone else?

First Up

I suspect all of those questions - and quite a few others - will have occurred to McCague.

AndrewJRenko

First Up wrote: »

200 no shows; then the HSE give back 5 vaccines, then give back 15 more. One hour 45 minutes before they expire.

A pity they didn't call you for advice.

The HSE didn't give back anything, as you well know. That's the second time that I've caught you trying to spin yarns about the HSE role.

The Beacon were responsible for deciding how many vials were open.

RandomViewer

First Up wrote: »

200 no shows; then the HSE give back 5 vaccines, then give back 15 more. One hour 45 minutes before they expire.

A pity they didn't call you for advice.

Where are you getting an hour and 45minutes from? Its six hours at room temperature after the vial is opened, 10 doses to a vial, unopened vials can be stored in a standard fridge, seems to be some effort to conflate Pfizer and AZ here

First Up

AndrewJRenko wrote:

The HSE didn't give back anything, as you well know. That's the second time that I've caught you trying to spin yarns about the HSE role.

The Beacon were responsible for deciding how many vials were open.

I previously summarised what I have learned from media reports - The Beacon was told to prepare to deliver 1,269 vaccines but 200 didn't turn up for their appointments. The HSE admitted they had double booked and undertook to find other users but left the Beacon holding 20, with time running out.

If you have a different version of events, please share it here or better still, give it to Eugene McCague

AndrewJRenko

First Up wrote: »

I previously summarised what I have learned from media reports - The Beacon was told to prepare to deliver 1,269 vaccines but 200 didn't turn up for their appointments. The HSE admitted they had double booked and undertook to find other users but left the Beacon holding 20, with time running out.

If you have a different version of events, please share it here or better still, give it to Eugene McCague

Which confirms that;

1) the HSE didn't give back anything, as you well know. [That's the second time that I've caught you trying to spin yarns about the HSE role]

2) The Beacon were responsible for deciding how many vials were open.

First Up

RandomViewer wrote:

Where are you getting an hour and 45minutes from? Its six hours at room temperature after the vial is opened, 10 doses to a vial, unopened vials can be stored in a standard fridge, seems to be some effort to conflate Pfizer and AZ here

I bow to your superior expertise and knowledge of vaccines. According to the Beacon's statement that I read, there was one hour and 45 minutes left when they contacted St Gerard's. I don't know how things got to that point.

Again, I expect all of this will be clear from the investigation.

First Up

AndrewJRenko wrote:

1) the HSE didn't give back anything, as you well know. [That's the second time that I've caught you trying to spin yarns about the HSE role]

OK, I'll explain it more slowly for you.

The Beacon dispensed the vaccines; the HSE arranged for the people to turn up at the Beacon to get them. 200 of those people didn't turn up as expected so the vaccines were unused.

AndrewJRenko wrote:

2) The Beacon were responsible for deciding how many vials were open.

I presume the number of vials opened corresponded to the number of people the HSE had told the Beacon to expect.

BettyS

First Up wrote: »

Closest doesn't necessarily mean quickest. St Gerard's to the Beacon is about 10 minutes. How much faster than that could other schools have been contacted and organised for vaccination?

You seem to know a lot of specifics. Personally invested in the case?