Republic of Ireland v Luxembourg - Match Thread - K.O 19.45 - RTE and Sky Sports

gormdubhgorm

tayto lover wrote: »

. The problem is that Kenny has a very poor squad some of whom probably couldn’t play either style of football and can’t even get games at their clubs. It’s a magic wand a manager would want.

They have played both badly that is for sure. The worst of both worlds. I think it is not just a technical problem. But a mental one.

There is damn all leadership in that Irish team. Coleman, Duffy, Long that is it. Duffy a fella not designed for possession football who's career is on the slide.

Long an injury prone player in his 30's who can only last 20 minutes effectively in a game and is on loan at a second tier English team. Coleman a 32 year old past his peak and now lacks the same pace.

tayto lover

briany wrote: »

Another manager would have access to (assuming full fitness) many of the same players that Martin O' Neill had (Duffy, Randolph, Coleman, Brady, McClean, McCarthy, Long etc), and as I recall, O'Neill had that team getting some tidy results in his first two campaigns in charge. It wasn't all roses, but the team was at least in the mixer for qualification.

The only way I want to see Ireland play passing football is if it gets better results than the alternative, and ultimately this is the way the majority of fans think. Football is about getting more goals than your opponent, not who had the most possession or passes completed.

Fair enough and I respect that view.
I don’t support it though because it doesn’t do anything to make me enjoy it. Having said that I didn’t enjoy last night’s game one bit but I’m still prepared to give Kenny this competition to get it right. The U.21’s coming through will improve it in time I believe.

Augme

briany wrote: »

Another manager would have access to (assuming full fitness) many of the same players that Martin O' Neill had (Duffy, Randolph, Coleman, Brady, McClean, McCarthy, Long etc), and as I recall, O'Neill had that team getting some tidy results in his first two campaigns in charge. It wasn't all roses, but the team was at least in the mixer for qualification.

Those players were also regulars in premiership teamsat the time. Coleman is the only one who can say that now. If these players were lighting it up at their clubs and kenny just couldn't achieve the same I'd be all for sacking him as you'd expect a serious turn around in form.

briany

tayto lover wrote: »

Having said that I didn’t enjoy last night’s game one bit but I’m still prepared to give Kenny this competition to get it right. The U.21’s coming through will improve it in time I believe.

He probably will get this competition to get it right because these are strange times where public interest in the national team has been on the wane, and games are completely devoid of fans due to an ongoing lockdown. If this were normal times, fans in the ground would certainly have been voicing their displeasure directly to him and the team last night. As it is, he will get as little scrutiny as possible.

It's my opinion that any manager walking into the Ireland should look at the team and recognise that they're not a bunch of canny pass-smiths and the first thing to do is to drill the defensive organisation. Then, once that is achieved, look for ways to attack without compromising that foundation.

See, Kenny was talking about wanting to change the way Ireland play. It's the wrong rhetoric. He should have talked about, and be thinking about, wanting to build on the rugged defensive organisation of previous Ireland squads and adding an incisive attacking element. That's how underdog teams like Greece and Iceland have been successful in the past.

tayto lover

briany wrote: »

He probably will get this competition to get it right because these are strange times where public interest in the national team has been on the wane, and games are completely devoid of fans due to an ongoing lockdown. If this were normal times, fans in the ground would certainly have been voicing their displeasure directly to him and the team last night. As it is, he will get as little scrutiny as possible.

It's my opinion that any manager walking into the Ireland should look at the team and recognise that they're not a bunch of canny pass-smiths and the first thing to do is to drill the defensive organisation. Then, once that is achieved, look for ways to attack without compromising that foundation.

See, Kenny was talking about wanting to change the way Ireland play. It's the wrong rhetoric. He should have talked about, and be thinking about, wanting to build on the rugged defensive organisation of previous Ireland squads and adding an incisive attacking element. That's how underdog teams like Greece and Iceland have been successful in the past.

I think you’re last paragraph is correct except that Kenny saw what the U.21’s he managed had achieved and how they played. The problem I believe is that the younger and newer players have bought into his way but the older members apart from a very few have the skill required and thus have not bought into it. I think the fact that he has dropped a lot of them and only uses some of them as substitutes is proof of this. There’s quite a bit to go as yet if he is to succeed.

LuckyLloyd

We'll retain him through the end of his contract for all the wrong reasons: money, basically.

I can only cross my fingers that this nonsense doesn't rob us of our third seeding for the Euro 2024 qualification process.

sterz

Cross your fingers for a quality squad to magically appear while you're at it.

LuckyLloyd

sterz wrote: »

Cross your fingers for a quality squad to magically appear while you're at it.

Well, irrespective of the quality of the squad, all I ask for as a match going supporter is that we maximise our collective ability and are as competitive as possible. Last night wasn't that. The last 10 games haven't been that.

We need a manager who will get the best out of our players.

tayto lover

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

We'll retain him through the end of his contract for all the wrong reasons: money, basically.

I can only cross my fingers that this nonsense doesn't rob us of our third seeding for the Euro 2024 qualification process.

Even if we were number one seeds we haven’t the players.
This won’t change by kicking the ball away up the field to the opposition. We’ve seen enough of that imo. We’re better in the long run trying to play football and get the next bunch playing to a plan. It won’t happen immediately. By the end of this campaign I’ll also be shouting for Kenny’s head if things haven’t changed.

happyoutscan

So Luxembourg - with a population of 600,000 - have drawn with France and beaten us in the last couple of years.

Unless we persevere with actually trying to play passing/possession football instead of hoofball, our hoofing it won't give us enough of a return to merit its use and we'll be left further behind.

Personally, I feel that with no interest in the League (no offence intended to anyone) and the continued rise in popularity of GAA/Rugby that football in this country is dead and gone.

The_Kew_Tour

McCarthy, Kerr, Stan, Trap, O Neill, McCarthy (again) and now Kenny have all failed to get best out of the squad in certain campaigns.

A far far far bigger picture is needed to be looked at.

Oat23

briany wrote: »

See, Kenny was talking about wanting to change the way Ireland play. It's the wrong rhetoric. He should have talked about, and be thinking about, wanting to build on the rugged defensive organisation of previous Ireland squads and adding an incisive attacking element. That's how underdog teams like Greece and Iceland have been successful in the past.

Why is your ultimate aim to be an underdog team like Greece or Iceland though?

We've developed dozens of elite players over the past 50 years. Greece & Iceland could only dream of having the types of players we have had.

I say we developed them, it wasn't really us. It was England that developed them for us. Something we can no longer rely on.

But those lads were Irish. We can do so much more in the sport than be a well drilled defensive team that robs a few wins like you seem to want. We've spent a decade under Trap, O'Neill & Mick doing just that: papering over the cracks in the foundations of Irish football playing putrid football. Why would you want to continue that instead or pushing for real change? Let's start developing quality players ourselves over the next 10 years so we can have a team that plays an attractive brand of modern football that lets us truly compete in the sport.



The alternative is more kick and rush football where, maybe, with the expanded WC and Euros we qualify for the occasional finals with no hope of competing at them. Meanwhile nothing is done to address the underfunded youth development in this country because people are happy with the occasional finals appearances.



I'm not expecting us to ever win the Euros or a World Cup but I'm sick and tired of our fans idea of a successful national team being simply qualifying for the finals. We can do much more than just take part. We have done so in the past (90, 94, 2002..), but that was a different time where our style of football suited the era and we could rely on the far superior English academies to develop our lads.


I've been on here for the past decade getting dogs abuse for saying we need to hit rock bottom before we see real change and I still feel that way. I only wish it happened 5 or 6 years ago. The sooner everyone comes to terms with the fact we are a shockingly poor footballing nation that is only getting worse the sooner we can do something about it. Stop blaming the manager for trying to play football. Changing manager isn't going to fix the fundamental flaws we've had in our underage development structures for the past 15 years that have led to this result.

eagle eye

The_Kew_Tour wrote:

McCarthy, Kerr, Stan, Trap, O Neill, McCarthy (again) and now Kenny have all failed to get best out of the squad in certain campaigns.

Ireland qualifying for a World Cup or Euros is incredibly successful.
Making it to the knockout stages of a World Cup is a magnificent achievement.
McCarty, first time, and Trap did excellent jobs.
Kerr was very badly treated and I'd say we played the best football we ever did under him.

Fr Tod Umptious

happyoutscan wrote: »

So Luxembourg - with a population of 600,000 - have drawn with France and beaten us in the last couple of years.

Unless we persevere with actually trying to play passing/possession football instead of hoofball, our hoofing it won't give us enough of a return to merit its use and we'll be left further behind.

Personally, I feel that with no interest in the League (no offence intended to anyone) and the continued rise in popularity of GAA/Rugby that football in this country is dead and gone.

But was it every even alive ?
A prefect storm of good players and a good manager in the mid 80s propelled them to 6th in the rankings.
That momentum and another set of good players allowed it to continue to around WC 2002 ( where they were fortunate to be drawn against a non UEFA team for the playoff)

Since then it's been a decline, a world class manager in Trap did lift them a bit but they still came rock bottom of Euro 2012 and shipped 6 v Germany during his tenure.
All things that would have been inconceivable during the era previous.

Qualifying for Euro 2016 has to be prefaced with the fact that 3rd place teams made the playoffs for the first time.

Richard Hillman

Weepsie wrote: »

Luxembourg have gone from 150 to as high as 82 in the last 5-6 years in the world rankings. Ireland have steadily hovered in the 30s but are now drifting back.

That's on the back of them having some proper structures in place, that we don't. A country of 600,000 supports a 14 team top division and a 16 team second division. They have actively sought to coach players from a young age with the goal of them making it as professionals and to improve the national team. They have done this since 2004/5 when they were way down at 180 in the rankings.

Our league isn't given a second thought by it's association. Teams have gone bust and come back. Others will know better than me whats wrong with the league, and it's structures, but it radically needs to be changed and soon, and with the goal of having a talented selection of players here from whom we could at the very least see go to higher leagues or get people going to games and interested in the game.

They need to also look at what the IRFU and GAA do with schools, clubs etc and just copy them.

Rugby and GAA are absolutely embedded into a lot of schools, and their underage competitions are a big deal. The GAA are very cute in this regard with having finals at Croke Park. So many people from Dublin have actually played there as a kid and it sticks.

If the FAI are going to grow the schools game they need to create a proper tournament with a prize at the end. If it's a cash prize for the school, the schools will start to look at it or the prestige of playing at Lansdowne Road. There are a lot of new schools popping up around that the FAI could be going after that don't have the GAA or Rugby embedded.

Saying that, as a societal thing I think there is way too much emphasis on team sports in the country. And kids usually drop it when they hit their teens and never return. And as bad as our football performances are, our Olympic record is absolutely pathetic.

briany

Oat23 wrote: »

Why is your ultimate aim to be an underdog team like Greece or Iceland though?

It's not my 'ultimate aim', but it is to say that teams who are outmatched on quality (on paper) do well to get their defensive game down first by being well-drilled at it. That must be the foundation. If you don't have that, it doesn't matter if you can score two goals in a game when you concede three.

Pussyhands

We have better players than Luxembourg and they played better football than us. Coach needs the blame then.

It's not like Luxembourg have quality players. Vincent Thill was pretty threatening for them last night and he plays for a team in the relegation zone in Portugal.

Sinani is on loan from Norwich in Belgium playing for the worst team in the league.

Olivier Thill plays for a mid table Ukrainian side.

But looking at their results, they're not bad so the coach must take big credit. They were in the same group for the Euro qualifying as Portugal and Serbia again and their aggregate losses were 5-0 and 6-3 respectively.

They lost both games v group winners Ukraine by a single goal both times and one of those wins needed a 93 minute OG to win.

GazzaL

Fair play to Luxembourg, we were beaten by the better team from a proper footballing country.

gormdubhgorm

Oat23 wrote: »

Why is your ultimate aim to be an underdog team like Greece or Iceland though?

We've developed dozens of elite players over the past 50 years. Greece & Iceland could only dream of having the types of players we have had.

I say we developed them, it wasn't really us. It was England that developed them for us. Something we can no longer rely on

You make a good point on relying on England to develop Irish players. The truth is the English leagues (even the Championship in England) now look globally for players so the chances of Irish players competing against that and emerging is very slim.

When was the last creative elite player Ireland produced it is all past tense. I would argue that Iceland and Greece have produced better quality players overall than Ireland have in the intervening years. Iceland did it without a decent domestic league - centre of excellence route. Greece have an Ok domestic league with a population of just over 10m. Their good players go abroad after a period in Greece.

How are you going to stop young lads going straight over to England at 16 and being chewed up and spat out by the English system. When those young lads have been fed on a diet of SKY football and it is just a short plane journey away.

Most young lads who play soccer come from working class areas and follow English clubs. Many would look for the quick fix of big money. Not many would have much interest in going to smaller leagues such as Belgium. Holland, Portugal. Where it would be less competitive than England but the quality would be decent and technical.
It would mean learning a language and a new culture. Most Irish young lads who play soccer don't want to do that.

Also young lads are not going to stay in the LOI of Ireland for any length of time even if they are missed by English soccer clubs.
So the cycle will continue.

But those lads were Irish. We can do so much more in the sport than be a well drilled defensive team that robs a few wins like you seem to want. We've spent a decade under Trap, O'Neill & Mick doing just that: papering over the cracks in the foundations of Irish football playing putrid football. Why would you want to continue that instead or pushing for real change? Let's start developing quality players ourselves over the next 10 years so we can have a team that plays an attractive brand of modern football that lets us truly compete in the sport.

For any team to be successful they have to be well drilled defensively. That is the basis for any team. In particular a more limited team technically. That is why Trap and MON went that way. Plus it is much easier to play that way and and simple instructions for players. Where they are not creative particularly in international football where managers have to get results quickly with minimal coaching time.

It is nice to have the ideal of Ireland playing attractive football. But what do you do if the players are not there? Also I don't view it as 'modern' it is just a different style of playing. A style of playing which needs technical players particularly in midfield. I cannot think one for Ireland except Jack Byrne who Kenny did not seem to favour

The alternative is more kick and rush football where, maybe, with the expanded WC and Euros we qualify for the occasional finals with no hope of competing at them. Meanwhile nothing is done to address the underfunded youth development in this country because people are happy with the occasional finals appearances.

Getting to a finals is an achievement for a nation of Ireland's size even in the expanded format. To have these grandiose ideas of competing in tournaments with attractive football is a nice ideal. But not feasible when young lads end up in the lower leagues of English football at best. Or end up leaving the game entirely disillusioned.

There is nothing wrong direct football if it is done strategically with a mixture of trying to string the odd pass together. That is what Ireland should be aiming for. Scotland seem to have found a decent mix of this. Football mixed with heart and passion.

I'm not expecting us to ever win the Euros or a World Cup but I'm sick and tired of our fans idea of a successful national team being simply qualifying for the finals. We can do much more than just take part. We have done so in the past (90, 94, 2002..), but that was a different time where our style of football suited the era and we could rely on the far superior English academies to develop our lads.

Qualifying is a success for a nation of Ireland's size, when you look at the dearth of talent at the moment it would be even more of an achievement

I've been on here for the past decade getting dogs abuse for saying we need to hit rock bottom before we see real change and I still feel that way. I only wish it happened 5 or 6 years ago. The sooner everyone comes to terms with the fact we are a shockingly poor footballing nation that is only getting worse the sooner we can do something about it. Stop blaming the manager for trying to play football. Changing manager isn't going to fix the fundamental flaws we've had in our underage development structures for the past 15 years that have led to this result.

Hard to argue with this. But the FAI call their centre's 'centre's of excellence.

https://www.fai.ie/domestic/take-part-programmes/emerging-talent

They brought in Dutch lads like Ruud Dokter back in 2013 as performance director.

I think personally the FAI is p!ssing against the wind. Young lads mindset will only ever think England. The LOI is barely hanging on and never gets supported by the Irish soccer public properly.Where is this development going to happen from?

Ireland need to get very lucky and find 4/5 class players together like the Given, Dunne. Robbie Keane, Duff times. Then have a team that looks attractive to English born lads who have quality . So they would consider playing for Ireland if they do not get the England call up.

Any English player who declares for Ireland has to think hard.

Do they want to accept lower wages, lower profile at their club because they are 'Irish'. Or are they happy with a couple of English caps, more wages, and a higher profile playing for England.

If you were English would you bother declaring for Ireland unless you had no other options?

noodler

tayto lover wrote: »

Even if we were number one seeds we haven’t the players.
This won’t change by kicking the ball away up the field to the opposition. We’ve seen enough of that imo. We’re better in the long run trying to play football and get the next bunch playing to a plan. It won’t happen immediately. By the end of this campaign I’ll also be shouting for Kenny’s head if things haven’t changed.

These arguments all held until we lost to Luxembourg at home.

Players have always been a problem. Hasn't stopped us dispatching lower seeds, particularly at home, and last night's performance can't be blamed on the playing pool.

How I'd long for Mick's horrible 0-1 win in Gilbraltar and subsequent 1-0 over Georgia.

The former in particular was not aesthetically pleasing but we were still in it after two games. It's so disheartening not even to have hope over the next six months, beating Luxembourg would have kept us motivated. Kept things in out own hands.

The games in the second half of the campaign will be dead runners and I can't remember the last time that's happened.

We only asked for maximum points from Azjarbaijan and Lux, to keep us going into the Serbia game with something to play for.

jacool

GazzaL wrote: »

Fair play to Luxembourg, we were beaten by the better team from a proper footballing country.

They were certainly no mugs, and have come on in leaps and bounds.
The most obvious case was when their captain hacked down Jason Knight. He was on a yellow card and the tackle deserved another yellow because he knew that Ireland were going to break down the right wing, with him out of position. He faked injury and when he came back on George Hamilton said "he's made a quick recovery there", oblivious to the truth of the incident. The ref was quick enough to book Josh Cullen for a lesser foul 2 minutes after.

For Ireland, I think they will leave Kenny there for this campaign.
If they do, he should just play the youth players and let them get used to each other and the tactical formation, as is.
Bar Coleman, the older brigade brought nothing to the occasion, so leave them off now, and try get something fresh going. They'll gain experience in these fan-free days without being exposed to the venting of their frustrations.

Big Ears

Pussyhands wrote: »

We have better players than Luxembourg and they played better football than us. Coach needs the blame then.

It's not like Luxembourg have quality players. Vincent Thill was pretty threatening for them last night and he plays for a team in the relegation zone in Portugal.

Sinani is on loan from Norwich in Belgium playing for the worst team in the league.

Olivier Thill plays for a mid table Ukrainian side.

But looking at their results, they're not bad so the coach must take big credit. They were in the same group for the Euro qualifying as Portugal and Serbia again and their aggregate losses were 5-0 and 6-3 respectively.

They lost both games v group winners Ukraine by a single goal both times and one of those wins needed a 93 minute OG to win.

They've quite a lot of players playing in top divisions in clubs across Europe, certainly not the bunch of part-timers people would associate the Luxembourg team from 15-20 years ago.
In the last 12 months they've beaten the Republic of Ireland, Montenegro, Cyprus and Azerbaijan.
Now they're still at a level that we really should be getting the better of them, but they're not bad, they're decent on the ball and they've a solid enough team.

The result looks a lot worse because of the size of their country (which has also grown a lot in the last 15-20 years) and historically how poor they've been.
However if anyone thinks I'm saying it's okay to lose to them because of that...... I'm not !

As for the post mentioning we've no way to stop young lads going to England at 16, due to Brexit players can't actually leave to play in England until 18 now.
Unless a club can move their whole family with them, it'll be left with Irish clubs to develop them.
Hopefully the bringing in the underage LOI will pay dividends over team, and despite the comment of young lads won't want to go to Belgium etc.......I actually think this will become more common.
Josh Cullen and Jack Byrne going outside of the usual route will change the perception of players doing that, and I envisage we'll be a lot less England centric going forward.

The LOI clubs will have to produce our players and if anyone in England or on the continent wants them, they'll have to pay compensation (or a transfer )at least. Hopefully this can be reinvested back into developing players and over time we can get a solid system and structure in place.


I do feel at U13 level we should have a lot more clubs playing LOI though, I'd worry about the funnel being too small and players having a lot of travel at a very young age. Reduce the amount of clubs at U15, and then by U17 have it that it's mostly the Senior LOI clubs, plus the odd area team (Mayo or Kerry District side etc).

Hercule Poirot

Big Ears wrote: »

As for the post mentioning we've no way to stop young lads going to England at 16, due to Brexit players can't actually leave to play in England until 18 now.
Unless a club can move their whole family with them, it'll be left with Irish clubs to develop them.

.

Actually Ireland are exempt from this rule due to a previously arrangement between the UK and Ireland that predates Britain leaving the EU so they can still snap up our teenagers.

Can't remember the exact name of it but the Guardian Football Weekly podcast talked about it when they did a special on the impact of Brexit on English football teams

tayto lover

noodler wrote: »

These arguments all held until we lost to Luxembourg at home.

Players have always been a problem. Hasn't stopped us dispatching lower seeds, particularly at home, and last night's performance can't be blamed on the playing pool.

How I'd long for Mick's horrible 0-1 win in Gilbraltar and subsequent 1-0 over Georgia.

The former in particular was not aesthetically pleasing but we were still in it after two games. It's so disheartening not even to have hope over the next six months, beating Luxembourg would have kept us motivated. Kept things in out own hands.

The games in the second half of the campaign will be dead runners and I can't remember the last time that's happened.

We only asked for maximum points from Azjarbaijan and Lux, to keep us going into the Serbia game with something to play for.

Beating Luxembourg still wouldn’t mean that we’d qualify though. Regardless of our style play or who is manager we weren’t getting out of this group imo. Yes you’re right in saying that the games in the second half of the campaign will be dead rubbers but they can now be used to try new players and new systems. I reckon Kenny will bring more players in from the U.21’s.

johnnyryan89

Hercule Poirot wrote: »

Actually Ireland are exempt from this rule due to a previously arrangement between the UK and Ireland that predates Britain leaving the EU so they can still snap up our teenagers.

Can't remember the exact name of it but the Guardian Football Weekly podcast talked about it when they did a special on the impact of Brexit on English football teams

No they can't.

noodler

tayto lover wrote: »

Beating Luxembourg still wouldn’t mean that we’d qualify though. Regardless of our style play or who is manager we weren’t getting out of this group imo. Yes you’re right in saying that the games in the second half of the campaign will be dead rubbers but they can now be used to try new players and new systems. I reckon Kenny will bring more players in from the U.21’s.

It wouldn't have meant we'd have qualified alright.

But it's heartbreaking to have Serbia come here later in the campaign knowing that even scraping a win wouldn't get us into 2nd.

I don't agree with the "we were never getting out of the group" concession from the start. We never accept that and results tend to bear it out.

We were a goal away from qualifying last time, got to a playoff against Denmark the previous time, qualified the time before that, WC 2014 was the last time we had dead rubbers at the end but even then I believe a win in Austria at the end would have kept us in it, qualified before that, Paris playoff before that.

I'm a bit worried the players are starting to believe what you said about having no chance.

kksaints

Hercule Poirot wrote: »

Actually Ireland are exempt from this rule due to a previously arrangement between the UK and Ireland that predates Britain leaving the EU so they can still snap up our teenagers.

Can't remember the exact name of it but the Guardian Football Weekly podcast talked about it when they did a special on the impact of Brexit on English football teams

They don't need work permits after the age of 18 but they can't transfer to an English club before they are 18.

https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/soccer/international/fifa-make-no-allowance-for-minors-moving-from-republic-of-ireland-to-british-clubs-1.4427913

Kermit.de.frog

The more Irish players we can get playing on the continent at whatever level reasonably high the better imo.

The biggest issue from last night was Stephen Kenny being outwitted by the Luxembourg manager. A team that has won 5 games from 120 odd away qualifiers were the better team.

No amount of complaining about squad strength can get away from that.

noodler

noodler wrote: »

These arguments all held until we lost to Luxembourg at home.

Players have always been a problem. Hasn't stopped us dispatching lower seeds, particularly at home, and last night's performance can't be blamed on the playing pool.

How I'd long for Mick's horrible 0-1 win in Gilbraltar and subsequent 1-0 over Georgia.

The former in particular was not aesthetically pleasing but we were still in it after two games. It's so disheartening not even to have hope over the next six months, beating Luxembourg would have kept us motivated. Kept things in out own hands.

The games in the second half of the campaign will be dead runners and I can't remember the last time that's happened.

We only asked for maximum points from Azjarbaijan and Lux, to keep us going into the Serbia game with something to play for.

Excellent post. Agree 100%

Kermit.de.frog

No win in 10 games and a 1-0 home defeat to Luxembourg. No goal in 8 of those games.

It's over. He'll get the mercy of a couple more games I guess up to Portgual away because there is time but there is no coming back from last night.

What's happened here is another sad Steve Staunton scenario. The job given to someone hopelessly out of their depth and these are the consequences for the fans and for the manager himself.

It's the old FAI decided to have their ludicrous 'succession' plan for McCarthy.

It's cost us the Euros and now the World Cup qualification.

Humiliated yet again.

Soups123

tayto lover wrote: »

Beating Luxembourg still wouldn’t mean that we’d qualify though. Regardless of our style play or who is manager we weren’t getting out of this group imo. Yes you’re right in saying that the games in the second half of the campaign will be dead rubbers but they can now be used to try new players and new systems. I reckon Kenny will bring more players in from the U.21’s.

Kenny is not going to change Irish football Tayto it’s delusional to think he will. Changing philosophy like that cannot come from one man in international football.

It’s also not as easy as saying bring in more u21s and give them experience, they have to be good enough and there is nothing to suggest we’ve a special bunch coming through.

His job at international level is to bring in the best players you can and play the best system that suits them, blend youth in when good enough but international is results business.

Kenny does not have the experience, ability or anything in his history to suggest he can be the man who can transform the footballing philosophy of the country

tayto lover

Soups123 wrote: »

Kenny is not going to change Irish football Tayto it’s delusional to think he will. Changing philosophy like that cannot come from one man in international football.

It’s also not as easy as saying bring in more u21s and give them experience, they have to be good enough and there is nothing to suggest we’ve a special bunch coming through.

His job at international level is to bring in the best players you can and play the best system that suits them, blend youth in when good enough but international is results business.

Kenny does not have the experience, ability or anything in his history to suggest he can be the man who can transform the footballing philosophy of the country

Even people who were regarded as experienced failed with this group.
It’s not as if we are entitled to get out of groups. We simply don’t have the players and no system will guarantee success. The top managers in Europe wouldn’t make any difference to players who can’t even get a game in the Championship or Div 1 or 2. We have to try other ways.

~Rebel~

6 wrote: »

The biggest issue from last night was Stephen Kenny being outwitted by the Luxembourg manager. A team that has won 5 games from 120 odd away qualifiers were the better team.

No amount of complaining about squad strength can get away from that.

True... but you do have to ask the question of how much of that comes from a manager in place for 10 pandemic games versus a manager in place for 10 years.

And of course the broader connotations of that. Would we ever have the patience to look to a long term view of steady building and progress like that? I don’t think so.

I expect more from Kenny and more from our team, but just churning the manager over year after year won’t help either. There’s a lot more than that that’s required for us to be in a position where we can scoff at other middling teams.

I dare say while a team like Luxembourg have undergone a decade of steady progress, we’re currently right in the middle of a decade of regress. The sinking ship and rising sub have met halfway.

Kermit.de.frog

~Rebel~ wrote: »

I dare say while a team like Luxembourg have undergone a decade of steady progress, we’re currently right in the middle of a decade of regress. The sinking ship and rising sub have met halfway.

The Irish team has been in slow and steady decline since 2002 in my opinion.

This is the worst team we ever had now.

Also the game is dying in this country. It's hard to compete for kids when they can't even get joy from the national team.

Brian?

Brian? wrote: »

Ok I’ll give you Germany and Dortmund, 25 years ago.

The rear of the teams people are naming aren’t successful teams.

How on earth are they not successful teams

tayto lover

People run down the LOI but many of the players on view last night came from it and are just of that standard ie very average. Apart from Coleman very few if any of them have improved after moving to England. Most are only getting an odd game with their teams when injuries or bans happen.That’s the standard now.
Luxembourg at least had one Champions League player and he stood out. Ours are miles from that.

Luxemburg are ranked 96. Minnows.
ROI ranked 42.


Never heard Luxemburg being talked up as much in decades of following football.
No valid excuse can be made for the Irish team losing at home to them.

As for Kenny Cunningham last night. :rolleyes: How he is still in a punditry job is beyond me.

briany

~Rebel~ wrote: »

I expect more from Kenny and more from our team, but just churning the manager over year after year won’t help either. There’s a lot more than that that’s required for us to be in a position where we can scoff at other middling teams.

The argument to say that Kenny should not be sacked would have been equally appropriate for Kerr and Staunton - two managers who each only got one proper campaign to show their talents. Perhaps if they'd been allowed to stay on, they would have developed a game plan which got good results. Maybe the only difference between Kenny and those two men right now - what's saving Kenny's job - is that there was the money floating about to give each of those men a severance.

Kenny wants Ireland to play a more confident passing style. I don't think there's anything wrong with this ambition at all except that if it continues to yield disappointing results, then it starts to become an advertisement against playing that way. At least as far as the Ireland team is concerned, anyway.

It may not do much good to keep chopping and changing the manager, but equally it's not much good to simply get a manager in who wants to play a certain way if the domestic system has not produced players who can play that way effectively.

The pressure is now on for Kenny to demonstrate at some point in this campaign that the system he is trying to impose can yield a good result. This has not happened so far.

Can people see Kenny being in charge for the next campaign? Imo, it's highly unlikely, and it's a waste of time him trying to push his "philosophy", which btw already looks like a failed project.

Pussyhands

How much tactics can an international coach really implement? I would think it's more down to man management and motivation and trying to have a formation that players etc are used to.

Kenny only has the players for a few days. How can he instruct his players in detail how to play? He can't teach his players how to press or where they should be positionally, at least not in good detail.

I think it might have been Harry Redknapp who said it's not an international managers job to improve players, they don't have them long enough to do that. How can Enda Stephens or Dara O'Shea suddenly switch into being possession players when they don't play that way week in week out?

sterz

I can see him being in charge if the rest of the campaign shows some progress. Put in good performances vs Portugal and Serbia and then who knows. A draw away in Lisbon isn't out of the question, and two home games vs Azerbaijan and Serbia coule be six points in the bag.

Now this is all a bit far fetched at the moment considering we haven't won a game in 11 atttempts, can't score and our last win in a qualifying campaign was vs Gibraltar at home in June 2019, but I'll stay optimistic for the moment.

If it goes pear shaped then I'd say that's it. But I don't know where they go from there.

tayto lover

Pussyhands wrote: »

How much tactics can an international coach really implement? I would think it's more down to man management and motivation and trying to have a formation that players etc are used to.

Kenny only has the players for a few days. How can he instruct his players in detail how to play? He can't teach his players how to press or where they should be positionally, at least not in good detail.

I think it might have been Harry Redknapp who said it's not an international managers job to improve players, they don't have them long enough to do that. How can Enda Stephens or Dara O'Shea suddenly switch into being possession players when they don't play that way week in week out?

The same thing would happen if we went defensive and just played long balls to a hold-up man or into space. Last night I saw 10 and 15 yard passes knocked out over the sideline and first touches that knocked the ball straight to an opponent.
It doesn’t matter who the manager is or what system you play if you can’t do the basics. We could hardly put two passes together in their half. You’d swear some of them never saw a ball before and these were the so-called experienced players.
I think Kenny will introduce more youth into the team for future games.

Zeek12

6 wrote: »

Luxemburg are ranked 96. Minnows.
ROI ranked 42.


Never heard Luxemburg being talked up as much in decades of following football.
No valid excuse can be made for the Irish team losing at home to them.

As for Kenny Cunningham last night. :rolleyes: How he is still in a punditry job is beyond me.

I think minnows is exaggerating their weakness to be fair. San Marino are ranked 210. Gibraltar and Lichtenstein are ranked around 190 and 180. Those are the sort of countries you'd call minnows.

Luxembourg are ranked over 100 places higher than SM and Gibraltar.
Just for some perspective, Georgia who have caused us (and a number of other decent sides) real headaches in qualifying groups are ranked less than 10 places higher than Luxembourg.

Not excusing the performance but we have no God given right to think we'll always beat a team like Luxemboug anymore. They narrowly lost 3-2 to Serbia, just like us, in their EURO 2020 qualifying, and Ukraine scraped past them thanks to an O.g. in injury time.

Totally agree with you on Cunningham though. He offers nothing from an analysis standpoint and the standard of the RTE panel in general (including Maloney as presenter) is really poor at the moment.

whiterebel

I think Kenny will get to see these qualifiers through as apparently that's when the contact runs to. The players he used last night weren't able to pass, sad to say. Enda Stevens, in particular had a terrible game. Browne looked like the lad who showboated when we were lads because he owned the ball, not much style and no substance.
He left out players who at least brought a bit of urgency and ability when the came on such as McClean and Brady. Brady looked rusty, but better than what we had. Why he didn't bring on Christie for Doherty, I'll never know.
He needs to find a mix of experience to go with some of the youth.
Anyone who has the choice to declare for RoI or England now will run in the opposite direction.

ben.schlomo

whiterebel wrote: »

I think Kenny will get to see these qualifiers through as apparently that's when the contact runs to. The players he used last night weren't able to pass, sad to say. Enda Stevens, in particular had a terrible game. Browne looked like the lad who showboated when we were lads because he owned the ball, not much style and no substance.
He left out players who at least brought a bit of urgency and ability when the came on such as McClean and Brady. Brady looked rusty, but better than what we had. Why he didn't bring on Christie for Doherty, I'll never know.
He needs to find a mix of experience to go with some of the youth.
Anyone who has the choice to declare for RoI or England now will run in the opposite direction.

Brady was as bad as the rest of them. One decent cross doesn't equate to being good. His set piece deliveries have been rancid for years yet somehow he's still on them. You know what you get with McClean, running, miss hit crosses and some headless stuff, that's nothing new. Brady needs first team football with a Championship team, he's not EPL standard these days.

Loafing Oaf

sterz wrote: »

I can see him being in charge if the rest of the campaign shows some progress. Put in good performances vs Portugal and Serbia and then who knows. A draw away in Lisbon isn't out of the question, and two home games vs Azerbaijan and Serbia coule be six points in the bag.

Did you smash it

ben.schlomo wrote: »

Brady was as bad as the rest of them. One decent cross doesn't equate to being good. His set piece deliveries have been rancid for years yet somehow he's still on them..

Setup Browne for a good headed chance on Saturday off a set piece. Put two corners on Duffy and doherty’s head for Finland away. Brady is as good as we have for crossing and set pieces.

Stevens and Doherty are complete no marks at crossing and attacking.

partyguinness

In hindsight is it any real surprise? Are the ROI really that much better than the Luxembourgs of the world?

Let's look at the squad...basically average Championship/League 1 level with a sprinkling of very average bottom half PL players who are mostly defenders in and out of their club sides.

ROI does not have any international class players playing at the top level.

For all the slagging off of Kenny...the players themselves need to get a grip out on the pitch and beat a team. They are not robots.

Bob Harris

The gap between Ireland and Luxembourg is not all that big. If you look at the level our players are playing at and theirs you'd to expect a fairly even match which is what we saw. While none of their players play in any big club in a top Euro league their starting 11 nearly all play in the top tier in the the country they are in so they are not the part timers they were 10/20 years ago.

While Ireland had 6 PL starters on Saturday - 4 of those are at relegation threatened sides and none of these 6 are superstars by any means. Coleman the best of them and a shadow of the player he was 2-3 seasons ago.
Robinson's scoring record is shocking and then Shane Long comes on to replace him who hasn't scored an international goal in 5 years.

We do not have quality players and we can't expect to round up a hotch-potch of mediocre players who are playing a very average standard of football for their clubs and think they'll perform like Brazil.

We're 42nd in the FIFA rankings and looking at the teams down as far as 100 we'd struggle to beat any of them.