Derek Chauvin murder trial (George Floyd)

MrStuffins

Jerrykay6 wrote: »

A 6'8 well-built African could do serious damage with a kick if he was let.

Strange choice of words.

Are your saying Africans are different in some way in this regard?

Mellor

Jerrykay6 wrote: »

A choke works by blocking the air traveling from the mouth up into the brain (via the trachea)..

That’s not how a choke works. Any choke or strangle.
The trachea isn’t connected to the brain. To cut off oxygen to the brain you compress the carotid artery. Which is on the side of the neck, where Chavin was kneeling.
So his throat being open to speak in no way means he couldn’t be choked.

Jerrykay6 wrote: »

i have been involved in martial arts for the better part of my life, while blood chokes are possible we are trained to use air chokes as they result in death (only under extreme self defense circumstances of course).

Not sure what martial art you train. But that’s also backwards.

KeepItLight

Mellor wrote: »

That’s not how a choke works. Any choke or strangle.
The trachea isn’t connected to the brain. To cut off oxygen to the brain you compress the carotid artery. Which is on the side of the neck, where Chavin was kneeling.
So his throat being open to speak in no way means he couldn’t be choked.

Wouldn't this kind of blood choke cause him to pass out within seconds?

Tony EH

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

What does "African" have to do with anything? A 5'5 skinny kid could also "do serious damage with a kick if he was let".

What indeed.

Mellor

KeepItLight wrote: »

Not that I'm an expert or martial artist, but don't blood chokes take only few seconds to cause the victim to pass out? Once you cut off the bloodflow to the brain, its goodnight pretty much right away.

One would assume the accusation here is referring to the air choke considering victim shouting 'I can't breathe' repeatedly.

A full closed off blood supply will puts you out it seconds. But a partially closed of blood supply can still have effect as oxygen saturation in the brain slowly reduces. And even though it’s cutting off blood not air, it very much creates a “can’t breath” sensation.
Plus they don’t always exist in isolation. The position was likely partial closing air and blood supply. So while some was getting through, it wasn’t enough and he slowly choked over 9 minutes.

Call me Al

The firefighter Genevieve Hansen is taking no prisoners with Chauvin's defence attorney.
She us not letting him off with anything.

She has just said in response to a question about the demeanour of bystanders being upset and angry at the scene "Well I don't know if you've seen anybody be killed but it's upsetting."

Chauvin is not doing well right now.

Jerrykay6

Mellor wrote: »

A full closed off blood supply will puts you out it seconds. But a partially closed of blood supply can still have effect as oxygen saturation in the brain slowly reduces. And even though it’s cutting off blood not air, it very much creates a “can’t breath” sensation.
Plus they don’t always exist in isolation. The position was likely partial closing air and blood supply. So while some was getting through, it wasn’t enough and he slowly choked over 9 minutes.

Nonsense, you do realise the brain is fed by more than just the carotid arteries?

Dyr

Mellor wrote: »

That’s not how a choke works. Any choke or strangle.
The trachea isn’t connected to the brain. To cut off oxygen to the brain you compress the carotid artery. Which is on the side of the neck, where Chavin was kneeling.
So his throat being open to speak in no way means he couldn’t be choked.

I like how everyone is using the term blood choke like yanks, there's an english word for cutting the blood supply to the brain: strangle.




Not sure what martial art you train. But that’s also backwards.[/QUOTE]

Not really, a lot of BJJ guys don't seem to get this because I assume they don't use actual chokes (air) much. Cutting off oxygen to the brain by compression of the carotoids results in unconsciousness in a clean, quick way, once you release the compression the blood and oxygen flows again. usually. Cutting off oxygen to the lungs by compressing the windpipe will also cut off oxygen to brain but its slower and more difficult, more importantly its more dangerous as the force required to compress the windpipe enough to block it can also cause it to collapse or swell, resulting in no air getting into the lungs after the pressure is released

US cops stopped using restraints with their batons across the throat years ago for this reason, the risk is too great with compression of the windpipe

Mellor

KeepItLight wrote: »

Wouldn't this kind of blood choke cause him to pass out within seconds?

See above.
It can take seconds, but that requires both side carotids to be compressed. Probably unlikely when Chavin was kneeling on one side of his neck.
More likely there was partial compression of multiple parts of the neck, his heart was working harder, but lungs couldn't keep up and he was using up circulating oxygen faster than he was receiving any - while not being 100% cut off. Eventually he went syncope and his heart stopped.

Jerrykay6

MrStuffins wrote: »

Strange choice of words.

Are your saying Africans are different in some way in this regard?

There are obviously outliers but you'd have to be foolish not to accept that many of West African descent have exceptional genetics when it comes to athletics.

Jerrykay6

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

What does "African" have to do with anything? A 5'5 skinny kid could also "do serious damage with a kick if he was let".

You'd rather take a kick from a 5'5 person as opposed to 6'8 George would you?

Jerrykay6

Mellor wrote: »

See above.
It can take seconds, but that requires both side carotids to be compressed. Probably unlikely when Chavin was kneeling on one side of his neck.
More likely there was partial compression of multiple parts of the neck, his heart was working harder, but lungs couldn't keep up and he was using up circulating oxygen faster than he was receiving any - while not being 100% cut off. Eventually he went syncope and his heart stopped.

Fentanyl is known to decrease BP which would contribute to his brain being inadequately perfused.

KB1980

BattleCorp wrote: »

It might not be murder. Kneeling on someone's kneck is an acceptable way of restraining someone in Minneapolis. At least it was until the Floyd incident. If the cop was restraining him as per police training, that might lessen the likelihood of it being murder. If the drugs in Floyd's system restricted his breathing further, then this also would lessen the likelihood of it being murder.

There's plenty of evidence still to be heard before we can say 100% that it was murder.



A police officer doesn't have the right to kill anyone. What they do have is the right to protect themselves and others and sometimes this means they have to use force. They can also use force when making an arrest if the person resists.

Did Chauvin use too much force? I can't say for sure. I'll wait to see what the court decides.



This is dumb. If the authorities are likely to use excessive force on minorities, you'd expect that the minorities would suffer less if the didn't resist arrest.



You grew up hating the police. Your views are especially biased so.

If the court found Chauvin not guilty, would you support that decision?

I am sure if you were the victim of something similar your remarks would be different. Not everyone is lucky enough to go through life without being the victim of some remarks/bias.

There has been far too many similar cases of police killing unarmed men and now is the time for them to answer.

Yes, we will wait for the verdict but I think it's fair to say that the defence has made their cases and whether found guilty or not I know what my verdict is.

MrStuffins

Jerrykay6 wrote: »

Fentanyl is known to decrease BP which would contribute to his brain being inadequately perfused.

Not as much as the knee to his throat for 9+ minutes that caused his homicide

Jerrykay6

MrStuffins wrote: »

Not as much as the knee to his throat for 9+ minutes that caused his homicide

Knee on the neck would likely raise BP not lower it.

MrStuffins

Jerrykay6 wrote: »

Knee on the neck would likely raise BP not lower it.

If lowered it to a full stop in this case according to two autopsies

Jerrykay6

MrStuffins wrote: »

If lowered it to a full stop in this case according to two autopsies

To be perfectly honest I really couldn't give a bollox about the treatment of violent criminals in America. In lieu of the inevitable "well then why are you posting" my response would be that that is an excellent point and I'm off to bed.

Mellor

Bambi wrote: »

I like how everyone is using the term blood choke like yanks, there's an english word for cutting the blood supply to the brain: strangle.

Strangle is the more technically accurate word.
Choke is more common in everyday parlance. As is chokehold as a general name.

Nothing to do with yanks tbh. The above applies in the US also. A rear naked choke can be either a choke or a strangle mechanically. But the name is generalised as choke.

Not really, a lot of BJJ guys don't seem to get this because I assume they don't use actual chokes (air) much.

You are assuming incorrectly.
Air choke are pretty common in BJJ and other martial arts.

Cutting off oxygen to the brain by compression of the carotoids results in unconsciousness in a clean, quick way, once you release the compression the blood and oxygen flows again. usually. Cutting off oxygen to the lungs by compressing the windpipe will also cut off oxygen to brain but its slower and more difficulty, more importantly its more dangerous as the force required to compress the windpipe enough to block it can also cause it to collapse or swell, resulting in no air getting into the lungs after the pressure is released

Not really likely tbh. You might crack a cartilage, or suffer tracea abrasions.
I mean, it's definitely possiblethat the windpipe could remain collapsed. But it's extremely rare. I've heard of it happening once, non fatally.
It's never occurred in professional MMA/BJJ afaik where thousands and thousands of people are training and competing.

And the same applies to Blood chokes/strangles btw. In extreme cases, they can cause carotid tears, or blood clots leading to strokes. But as with the above, very rare.

US cops stopped using restraints with their batons across the throat years ago for this reason, the risk is too great with compression of the windpipe

There's obviously a pretty big difference between using arms/clothing, and a hard metal bar - which is basically a big lever to increase the force and focus it over a smaller area. That will definitely severely damage cartilage. Which is obviously excessive force and a massive liability for cops.

Mellor

Jerrykay6 wrote: »

Nonsense, you do realise the brain is fed by more than just the carotid arteries?

I don't see how that is relevant to anything in the post you quoted, let alone contradicts any of it. The other arteries are the vertebral arteries, inside the spine - nothing I said excludes their existence.

Hilariously that your pulling this card after you claimed air travels from mouth to brain via the trachea. :pac::pac::pac:

It's a little bit telling that the posters leaping to the defense of Chauvin are ignoring his history of undue force. Doing it to a fourteen year old for seventeen minutes...

pjohnson

[Deleted User] wrote: »

It's a little bit telling that the posters leaping to the defense of Chauvin are ignoring his history of undue force. Doing it to a fourteen year old for seventeen minutes...

What else did you expect from them?

Eric Cartman

[Deleted User] wrote: »

It's a little bit telling that the posters leaping to the defense of Chauvin are ignoring his history of undue force. Doing it to a fourteen year old for seventeen minutes...

Surely if Chauvin has done this many times before and for longer without killing anyone then it only helps his innocence ... thought it was the right thing to do and nobody ever trained him differently ?

penny piper

h

Call me Al wrote: »

The firefighter Genevieve Hansen is taking no prisoners with Chauvin's defence attorney.
She us not letting him off with anything.

She has just said in response to a question about the demeanour of bystanders being upset and angry at the scene "Well I don't know if you've seen anybody be killed but it's upsetting."

Chauvin is not doing well right now.

I don't think you were watching the same court case as me....Chauvin's lawyer did an excellent job with Miss Hansen...infact the judge even reprimanded her in the way she was answering questions .....
When she said about seeing anybody killed and saying it was upsetting ...Chauvin's lawyer immediately told her to answer the questions she had been asked.....She also stated in her statement that what she had seen was a small slim guy....wasn't floyd aprox 6ft6 ?
Chauvin's lawyer earlier had impeached another of the prosecution's witnesses...

KB1980

penny piper wrote: »

h


I don't think you were watching the same court case as me....Chauvin's lawyer did an excellent job with Miss Hansen...infact the judge even reprimanded her in the way she was answering questions .....
When she said about seeing anybody killed and saying it was upsetting ...Chauvin's lawyer immediately told her to answer the questions she had been asked.....
Chauvin's lawyer earlier had impeached another of the prosecution's witnesses...

She came across as a very credible witness and what she said will certainly have made an impact on the jury. Irrespective of being reprimanded by the judge what she said was heard by the jury. Chauvin's lawyer was really digging at the bottom of the barrel with his line of questioning, trying to argue that 4 police men were afraid of concerned individuals shouting because they were being ignored by the police. I don't know about anybody else but if I was standing there watching that and seeing what they were doing to that man I'd be pretty upset too! His trying to compare the focus she would have putting out a fire to the focus of a police officer doing his job i.e. leaning on someone's neck while having his hands in his pockets, what a joke!

MrStuffins

Eric Cartman wrote: »

Surely if Chauvin has done this many times before and for longer without killing anyone then it only helps his innocence ... thought it was the right thing to do and nobody ever trained him differently ?

You admit yourself that you think Mr. Chauvin killed Mr Floyd. So no matter what way you look at it, the man isn't "Innocent".

Saying he did it before and didn't kill anyone is like when there's a dog owner who's excuse when their dog mauls someone's face off is like "Well, he'd never done that before".

Doesn't change the fact that he did it this time.

Call me Al

penny piper wrote: »

h


I don't think you were watching the same court case as me....Chauvin's lawyer did an excellent job with Miss Hansen...infact the judge even reprimanded her in the way she was answering questions .....
When she said about seeing anybody killed and saying it was upsetting ...Chauvin's lawyer immediately told her to answer the questions she had been asked.....
Chauvin's lawyer earlier had impeached another of the prosecution's witnesses...

Apparently we weren't lol.
No doubt seeing someone die when you're prevented from trying to save them focuses the mind.

She was taking none of it from Nelson.

Eric Nelson: A stressful situation can impact your memory.

Genevieve Hansen: Absolutely. That's why we're lucky it was videotaped.

GreeBo

Jerrykay6 wrote: »

A 6'8 well-built African could do serious damage with a kick if he was let.

How much damage could a 6'8 well-built German do?

ELM327

MrStuffins wrote: »

You admit yourself that you think Mr. Chauvin killed Mr Floyd. So no matter what way you look at it, the man isn't "Innocent".

Saying he did it before and didn't kill anyone is like when there's a dog owner who's excuse when their dog mauls someone's face off is like "Well, he'd never done that before".

Doesn't change the fact that he did it this time.

Innocent until proven otherwise.

MrStuffins

ELM327 wrote: »

Innocent until proven otherwise.

I was simply pointing out that the poster I quoted himself thinks that Mr. Chauvin is culpable for the "manslaughter" of Mr. Floyd as he put it.

osarusan

https://www.twincities.com/2020/06/23/minneapolis-police-chief-says-floyds-death-was-murder/

Arradondo said in his statement, first reported by the Star Tribune and also provided to the AP, that both Chauvin and Thao took training on the dangers of positional asphyxiation in 2014. The training, which covered how to get an arrestee from a prone position into a recovery or seated position, was required after a 2013 settlement with the family of David Cornelius Smith, a handcuffed Black man who died in 2010 after police pinned him face down.

Arradondo said the department also changed its policy in June 2014 to explicitly require moving an arrestee from a prone position to a recovery position when the highest degree of restraint is used, and to require continuous monitoring of the person’s condition.

He also said trainees continue to discuss the risks of in-custody deaths, and there’s “simply no way that any competent officer” would be unaware of the need to move an arrestee so he or she can breathe freely.

That seems to make it harder for the defence to use the 'just following training' argument.