Derek Chauvin murder trial (George Floyd)

penny piper

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

yes. another case in the same city 10 years prior to this event. the city paid out 3.5M in compensation.

The case of david smith was just the same but the family was given 3.5 million in compensation.....the police officers involved who did no different to police officer chauvan were off duty for aprox a month ...allowed back to work...and cleared of any criminal wrongdoing..... seems chauvan is been treated differently for some reason....

Tell me how

penny piper wrote: »

The case of david smith was just the same but the family was given 3.5 million in compensation.....the police officers involved who did no different to police officer chauvan were off duty for aprox a month ...allowed back to work...and cleared of any criminal wrongdoing..... seems chauvan is been treated differently for some reason....

Probably because cases of police brutality cannot be simply swept under the rug with tax payer funded payouts.

MrStuffins

penny piper wrote: »

I didn't say that the cause of death was drugs.....It was a contributing factor..

Wrong. And neither autopsy says so.

Both say he died at the hand of another human being

MrStuffins

penny piper wrote: »

seems chauvan is been treated differently for some reason....

It's called "progress".

micar

Two questions if anyone has the answer

Did the autopsy show if he had drugs in his system?

Was the $20 note fake?

MrStuffins

MrStuffins wrote: »

It's called "progress".

Jesus. It's progressive to claim racism where none exists? BLM claim that Floyd was killed because of systemic racism. Politicians who are now in power supported their spurious claims.

This is progress apparently.

Be careful what you wish for.

micar

micar wrote: »

Two questions if anyone has the answer

Did the autopsy show if he had drugs in his system?

Was the $20 note fake?

Yup and yup

MrStuffins

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Jesus. It's progressive to claim racism where none exists? BLM claim that Floyd was killed because of systemic racism. Politicians who are now in power supported their spurious claims.

This is progress apparently.

Be careful what you wish for.

No idea what I have to do with BLM?

Cop kills someone 10 years ago, goes back to work

Cop kills someone today, gets charged with the crime.

Progress

BattleCorp

MrStuffins wrote: »

Wrong. And neither autopsy says so.

Both say he died at the hand of another human being

You are conveniently ignoring may other things cited in the autopsy that may affect the outcome of the trial.

The Hennepin County autopsy said he died of cardiopulmonary arrest complicating law enforcement subdual, restraing, and neck compression.

Cardiopulmonary arrest is the cessation of adequate heart function and respiration and results in death without reversal. Often this condition is found in patients with coronary artery disease. Source. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK563231/

Floyd had coronary artery disease. That can cause cardiopulmonary arrest on its own.

George Floyd's diseases from the Hennepin County autopsy:

Natural diseases
A.

Arteriosclerotic heart disease, multifocal, severe
B.

Hypertensive heart disease
1.

Cardiomegaly (540 g) with mild biventricular
dilatation
2.

Clinical history of hypertension
C.

Left pelvic tumor (incidental, see microscopic description)

.

Wouldn't it be fair to say that someone with that sort of heart condition is far more likely to die from neck compression than someone who is in the whole of their health? After all, this technique has been used hundreds of thousands if not millions of times and we don't have hundreds of thousands of deaths from it. Percentage wise, the number of people who die from it is a fraction of one percent. So his heart condition may play a part.

Floyd also had a cocktail of drugs in his system. That cocktail of drugs along with a coronary heart disease and an enlarged heart may also have played a part in him dying.

Thirdly, Floyd had no bruising on his neck area indicating excessive pressure was applied. In fact the Hennepin autopsy said he had no life-threatening injuries present. I fully accept that someone can be killed and have no life-threatening injuries present but you can't take one part of an autopsy and ignore all the rest because it doesn't suit.

I'm not denying that Chauvin played a part in Floyd's death. I'm just open to the possibility that the part Chauvin played wasn't criminal. I'm not saying that it wasn't criminal, I'm just saying it's a possibility.

Add in the argument that Chauvin was using an acceptable restraint technique (albeit not according to protocol) but there may be extenuating circumstances to that.

It's not as cut and dried as you seem to think it is.

MrStuffins

BattleCorp wrote: »

You are conveniently ignoring may other things cited in the autopsy that may affect the outcome of the trial.....

I'm not reading a novel.

I linked to the autopsy report above so I'm not ignoring anything. Apart from your novel

AbusesToilets

MrStuffins wrote: »

I'm not reading a novel.

I linked to the autopsy report above so I'm not ignoring anything. Apart from your novel

Arguing in bad faith then. Noted.

KB1980

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Jesus. It's progressive to claim racism where none exists? BLM claim that Floyd was killed because of systemic racism. Politicians who are now in power supported their spurious claims.

This is progress apparently.

Be careful what you wish for.

Easy to say that when you've never been the victim of racism. Plenty of examples of how unarmed black men in the US have been shot in the back. Frankly I am happy such racism is being addressed and I will call it out whenever I see it.

penny piper

MrStuffins wrote: »

No idea what I have to do with BLM?

Cop kills someone 10 years ago, goes back to work

Cop kills someone today, gets charged with the crime.

Progress

So you don't think it has anything to do with the riots/protests/whatever BLM like to call it? constantly using the race card... that's not what I'd call progress... I don't think
the poster said anything about you having anything to do with blm either..
As I have posted before a 16 year old autistic boy eric parsa from new orleans in 2020 was held down by 7 officers ...he died in the same way as floyd....none of the officers have been held to account....

AbusesToilets

BattleCorp wrote: »

You are conveniently ignoring may other things cited in the autopsy that may affect the outcome of the trial.

The Hennepin County autopsy said he died of cardiopulmonary arrest complicating law enforcement subdual, restraing, and neck compression.

Cardiopulmonary arrest is the cessation of adequate heart function and respiration and results in death without reversal. Often this condition is found in patients with coronary artery disease. Source. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK563231/

Floyd had coronary artery disease. That can cause cardiopulmonary arrest on its own.

George Floyd's diseases from the Hennepin County autopsy:

.

Wouldn't it be fair to say that someone with that sort of heart condition is far more likely to die from neck compression than someone who is in the whole of their health? After all, this technique has been used hundreds of thousands if not millions of times and we don't have hundreds of thousands of deaths from it. Percentage wise, the number of people who die from it is a fraction of one percent. So his heart condition may play a part.

Floyd also had a cocktail of drugs in his system. That cocktail of drugs along with a coronary heart disease and an enlarged heart may also have played a part in him dying.

Thirdly, Floyd had no bruising on his neck area indicating excessive pressure was applied. In fact the Hennepin autopsy said he had no life-threatening injuries present. I fully accept that someone can be killed and have no life-threatening injuries present but you can't take one part of an autopsy and ignore all the rest because it doesn't suit.

I'm not denying that Chauvin played a part in Floyd's death. I'm just open to the possibility that the part Chauvin played wasn't criminal. I'm not saying that it wasn't criminal, I'm just saying it's a possibility.

Add in the argument that Chauvin was using an acceptable restraint technique (albeit not according to protocol) but there may be extenuating circumstances to that.

It's not as cut and dried as you seem to think it is.

Thw defense is likely to frame Chauvin as having acted in accordance with established protocol, in good faith that what he was doing didn't present a undue risk to the suspect. A situation compounded by Floyd's actions, and hia physical condition.

The case is likely to come down to whether he is judged to have been negligent on his duty of care towards Floyd, which seems likely.

MrStuffins

penny piper wrote: »

As I have posted before a 16 year old autistic boy eric parsa from new orleans in 2020 was held down by 7 officers ....he died in the same way as floyd....none of the officers have been held to account....

I'm struggling to understand your point.

Eric Parsa: killed by cops, cops aren't held to account

David Smith: killed by cops, cops aren't held to account

George Floyd and beyond: killed by police, who shouldn't be held to account because the others weren't?

BattleCorp

AbusesToilets wrote: »

Thw defense is likely to frame Chauvin as having acted in accordance with established protocol, in good faith that what he was doing didn't present a undue risk to the suspect. A situation compounded by Floyd's actions, and hia physical condition.

The case is likely to come down to whether he is judged to have been negligent on his duty of care towards Floyd, which seems likely.

Like I said earlier, I'm in two minds as to whether Chauvin acted illegally or not. I'm certain Chauvin played a significant part in Floyd's death, it's just that I feel there's a niggling sliver of reasonable doubt there given Floyd's heart diseases (multiple) and his drug use. I think someone in the whole of their health probably wouldn't have died in the same circumstances, but I can't say that for certain.

BattleCorp

MrStuffins wrote: »

I'm not reading a novel.

I linked to the autopsy report above so I'm not ignoring anything. Apart from your novel

That's not the autopsy that I linked to, it's a link to what cardiopulmonary arrest is and the causes.......and Floyd had the causes of it (coronary artery disease).

Here's the link to the Hennepin County autopsy.

https://www.mercurynews.com/2020/06/05/read-george-floyd-autopsy-report-with-cause-of-death-and-other-factors/

Rodin

The factors in this case are too subtle and nuanced to be understood by a normal lay jury.

BattleCorp

Rodin wrote: »

The factors in this case are too subtle and nuanced to be understood by a normal lay jury.

It'll be explained to them in a manner they are likely to understand. At least I hope that's what will happen.

Rodin

BattleCorp wrote: »

It'll be explained to them in a manner they are likely to understand. At least I hope that's what will happen.

Im not sure they're capable.
But for this... if that...reasonable doubt...

Green Peter

KB1980 wrote: »

Easy to say that when you've never been the victim of racism. Plenty of examples of how unarmed black men in the US have been shot in the back. Frankly I am happy such racism is being addressed and I will call it out whenever I see it.

Far more unarmed black men shot in the back by armed black men

This is the trouble with American policing.

There's enough wriggle room in the law.


Chauvin unquestionably caused the death of George Floyd (my person opinion and not that of Boards.ie) I suspect he'll be let off.

lawrencesummers

BattleCorp wrote: »

Like I said earlier, I'm in two minds as to whether Chauvin acted illegally or not. I'm certain Chauvin played a significant part in Floyd's death, it's just that I feel there's a niggling sliver of reasonable doubt there given Floyd's heart diseases (multiple) and his drug use. I think someone in the whole of their health probably wouldn't have died in the same circumstances, but I can't say that for certain.

So the fact that he has some medical conditions contributed to his death?

What about the fact that he first had to go unconscious from the actions of the police before he died? What about the fact that he was completely subdued long before going unconscious? What about the fact that at no stage in the process did the police check on his vitals or listen to him saying he was having difficulty breathing. They never adjusted where they were applying pressure to him.

I can say for certain that anybody dealt with like this would have died, it just might have taken longer so some and the chances are that someone not as well built as him would probably have died sooner because a bigger person is able to take that pressure better.

The biggest issue for me here is the length of time that he was subdued, and the length he is unconscious for.

What were they actually waiting for? What were 4 strong male officers waiting for when they had a handcuffed man completely subdued?

MrStuffins

BattleCorp wrote: »

That's not the autopsy that I linked to.....

I read the autopsy report.

It says the cause of death was homicide

KB1980

Green Peter wrote: »

Far more unarmed black men shot in the back by armed black men

Well don't the police have a duty of care to the public?? Can't compare police shooting someone in the back to a lay person doing the same !!

penny piper

MrStuffins wrote: »

I'm struggling to understand your point.

Eric Parsa: killed by cops, cops aren't held to account

David Smith: killed by cops, cops aren't held to account

George Floyd and beyond: killed by police, who shouldn't be held to account because the others weren't?

I am not saying at all that mr.chauvan or any other police officer who commits a crime shouldn't be held to account...but in Mr.Chauvan's case with the background of BLM protests/riots I think Mr.Chauvan's case has been turned into a racist case/media circus .....I don't see how he can get a fair trial...only to be used as an example..... which is wrong....

lawrencesummers

MrStuffins wrote: »

I read the autopsy report.

It says the cause of death was homicide

That leads into the question of whether Chauvin followed procedures or not, and if not does he have a history of not doing so against people.

If the prosecution establish that he didn’t follow procedure and this isn’t the first time then I think they will find him guilty of Murder, they will try to establish that he approached his job in a fashion that would inevitably lead to this kind of thing thereby pre-meditation.

This also depends on the charges and the local laws, burden of proof etc.

MrStuffins

penny piper wrote: »

I am not saying at all that mr.chauvan or any other police officer who commits a crime shouldn't be held to account...

So, considering you compare this case to the other cases, I assume you think Chauvin is also culpable.

So I also assume you think he should be held accountable here?

KeepItLight

MrStuffins wrote: »

I'm not reading a novel.

I linked to the autopsy report above so I'm not ignoring anything. Apart from your novel

What novel are you talking about here?

Rodin

[Deleted User] wrote: »

This is the trouble with American policing.

There's enough wriggle room in the law.


Chauvin unquestionably caused the death of George Floyd (my person opinion and not that of Boards.ie) I suspect he'll be let off.

Except that it's not unquestionable that he caused his death.