Derek Chauvin murder trial (George Floyd)

Witcher · 31-03-2021 8:58pm

MrStuffins wrote: »

I don't think so, because both autopsies ruled the death as homicide and neither said that drugs were a contributor to his death.

MrStuffins wrote: »

As the cause of death?

Wrong

Here is the report: https://content.govdelivery.com/attachments/MNHENNE/2020/06/01/file_attachments/1464238/2020-3700%20Floyd,%20George%20Perry%20Update%206.1.2020.pdf

MrStuffins wrote: »

I read the autopsy report.

It says the cause of death was homicide

MrStuffins wrote: »

Just a quick one.

Do you agree that this was homicide and that Mr. Chauvin caused Mr. Floyd's death?

MrStuffins wrote: »

Whether or not this has not been lethal in other situations doesn't change that it was lethal in this case.

FYI, there were two autopsies which both rued the death to be homocide. See the quote below:

MrStuffins wrote: »

Two autopsies found that the cause of death was homicide. Mr. Floyd was killed by another human being.

Two autopsies found that the cause of death was homicide. Mr. Floyd was killed by another human being.

Two autopsies found that the cause of death was homicide. Mr. Floyd was killed by another human being.

Cause of death:

“cardiopulmonary arrest complicating law-enforcement subdual restraint, and neck compression.”

Not acceptable in this case as it killed him.

MrStuffins wrote: »

Not as much as the knee to his throat for 9+ minutes that caused his homicide

MrStuffins wrote: »

So you've admitted that drugs did not lead to Mr Floyd's death, you have agreed with the autopsies and their verdicts of homicide and you admit that Mr Chavin is culpable for the killing of Mr Floyd.

Great

MrStuffins wrote: »

Correct. This is what the autopsies have shown. Both of them.

MrStuffins wrote: »

What is not in doubt is that George Floyd died at the hand of that cop. It was homicide. You agree with this, correct?

MrStuffins wrote: »

I agree with you. This is what the trial is for. We'll hear all evidence.

The evidence i've seen so far includes two autopsies saying the cause of death was homicide, plus a video of him doing it. Pretty damning so far.

Murder? Perhaps, perhaps not. But if the trial finds that the cop was not responsible for his death i'll be very surprised.

MrStuffins wrote: »

Two autopsies have said otherwise.

MrStuffins wrote: »

The autopsy ruled the death as homicide.

We've all seen the video. Anyone trying the "well he had drugs in his system" is playing a game. There is no doubt that the police officer killed him. None!

MrStuffins wrote: »

Which both say he died by homicide

Just so we're all sure, did the autopsies definitely find that it was homicide?

I couldn't find the answer on the thread.....

BloodBath · 31-03-2021 9:01pm

Did you really have to quote 14 posts to post 2 lines of a question that would have worked without any quotes?

Witcher · 31-03-2021 9:02pm

BloodBath wrote: »

Did you really have to quote 14 posts to post 2 lines of a question that would have worked without any quotes?

I think you're missing my point

MrStuffins · 31-03-2021 9:02pm

Witcher wrote: »

Just so we're all sure, did the autopsies definitely find that it was homicide?

I couldn't find the answer on the thread.....

Yes, yes they did!

KeepItLight · 31-03-2021 9:07pm

MrStuffins wrote: »

I don't think so, because both autopsies ruled the death as homicide and neither said that drugs were a contributor to his death.

But you also shared

MrStuffins wrote: »

Here is the report: https://content.govdelivery.com/attachments/MNHENNE/2020/06/01/file_attachments/1464238/2020-3700%20Floyd,%20George%20Perry%20Update%206.1.2020.pdf

which states:
"Other significant conditions: Arteriosclerotic and hypertensive heart disease; fentanyl intoxication; recent methamphetamine use "

Now I dunno about you, but having the "Other significant conditions" in the autopsy seems to indicate that you drugs were a likely contributing factor. Maybe you should read the autopsies in full first before you keep telling everyone else to read them.

MrStuffins · 31-03-2021 9:12pm

KeepItLight wrote: »

But you also shared

which states:
"Other significant conditions: Arteriosclerotic and hypertensive heart disease; fentanyl intoxication; recent methamphetamine use "

Now I dunno.....

Correct. You don't know.

A "significant condition" means significant condition, not contributing factor.

Nowhere does it say any of these things contributed to his death. It actually gives the cause of death:

Cause of death: Cardiopulmonary arrest complicating law enforcement subdual, restraint, and neck compression

KeepItLight · 31-03-2021 9:20pm

MrStuffins wrote: »

Correct. You don't know.

A "significant condition" means significant condition, not contributing factor.

Nowhere does it say any of these things contributed to his death. It actually gives the cause of death:

Why would it be on the autopsy if it wasn't relevant? By the way, its "Other significant conditions". The "other" part referring to additional potential contributing factors to his death. Which would would understand if you had read the autopsy in full, or weren't purposefully misrepresenting it.

MrStuffins · 31-03-2021 9:34pm

KeepItLight wrote: »

Why would it be on the autopsy if it wasn't relevant? By the way, its "Other significant conditions". The "other" part referring to additional potential contributing factors to his death. Which would would understand if you had read the autopsy in full, or weren't purposefully misrepresenting it.

The autopsy concluded what the cause of death was.

It didn't say any of those "conditions" were contributing factors

KeepItLight · 31-03-2021 9:43pm

MrStuffins wrote: »

The autopsy concluded what the cause of death was.

It didn't say any of those "conditions" were contributing factors

Condition: Noun
2. The circumstances or factors affecting the way in which people live or work, especially with regard to their well-being.
"harsh working conditions"

Condition: verb
1. have a significant influence on or determine (the manner or outcome of something).
"national choices are conditioned by the international political economy"

Hence, its relevance to the autopsy.

MrStuffins · 31-03-2021 9:46pm

KeepItLight wrote: »

Condition: Noun
2. The circumstances or factors affecting the way in which people live or work, especially with regard to their well-being.
"harsh working conditions"

Condition: verb
1. have a significant influence on or determine (the manner or outcome of something).
"national choices are conditioned by the international political economy"

Hence, its relevance to the autopsy.

But not it's relevance to the cause of death

BattleCorp · 31-03-2021 9:47pm

MrStuffins wrote: »

I read the autopsy report.

It says the cause of death was homicide

Once again you only see what you want to see.

I'm not saying it wasn't homicide. I'm saying there were other factors.

And just because it was homicide (in the autopsy meaning of the word), that doesn't mean that it was a criminal act that killed him.

CIARAN_BOYLE · 31-03-2021 9:48pm

To me the question of this court case is what charge Chauvin will be found guilty of.

He has been charged with 3 different offences.

Second-degree unintentional murder
Third-degree murder
Manslaughter

I can't see a world where Chauvin doesn't get convicted but I do wonder which charge.

Chauvin had previously asked for a deal whereby he would plead to 3rd degree murder and take 10 years. William Barr (then US AG) refused the deal.

I wouldn't be surprised to see him being merely convicted of manslaughter.

KeepItLight · 31-03-2021 9:50pm

MrStuffins wrote: »

But not it's relevance to the cause of death

Why do you think its on the autopsy?

MrStuffins · 31-03-2021 9:52pm

BattleCorp wrote: »

Once again you only see what you want to see.

I'm not saying it wasn't homicide. I'm saying there were other factors.

And just because it was homicide (in the autopsy meaning of the word), that doesn't mean that it was a criminal act that killed him.

It means he was killed by a human being.

That human being is Mr. Chauvin.

The jury will decide on criminality.

penny piper · 31-03-2021 9:52pm

MrStuffins wrote: »

Correct. You don't know.

A "significant condition" means significant condition, not contributing factor.

Nowhere does it say any of these things contributed to his death. It actually gives the cause of death:

Didn't he have enough fentanyl intoxication in his body to kill someone who wasn't used to the drug as he was used to ? ....plus recent methamphetamine use....you don't think that contributed along with restraint methods minneapolis police officers used? I do not think Chauvan deliberately set out to kill mr.floyd.....I think it was a combination of factors...

Officer Thomas Lane's body camera showed clearly floyd saying he couldn't breath before he even got into the police car and for some uknown reason saying he was going to die...he was also foaming at the mouth before he was even asked to get into the car.....he didn't follow any of the instructions the officers asked him to do ....and appeared himself to throw himself out of the car.. when he fell on the pavement he was kicking the officers....when the police officers went to him first ...he was in the driving seat of that car clearly under the influence.... regarding chauvan having his hand in his pocket....wasn't he wearing gloves and it only appeared that way from a distance...

MrStuffins · 31-03-2021 9:55pm

KeepItLight wrote: »

Why do you think its on the autopsy?

Autopsies are meant to be extensive. They mention all sorts. This one mentions his tattoos for example

MrStuffins · 31-03-2021 9:57pm

penny piper wrote: »

Didn't he have enough fentanyl intoxication in his body to kill someone who wasn't used to the drug as he was used to ?

So, you mean not enough to kill him then?

penny piper · 31-03-2021 10:06pm

MrStuffins wrote: »

So, you mean not enough to kill him then?

Enough to kill anyone else who hadn't had the drug before...but as he was so used to it ....no it wouldn't kill him...but at the same time it wouldn't help him either...

.just like to add the firefighter witness's claim she saw what she thought was bodily fluid.....that fluid is on the ground not near mr.floyd so obviously didn't come from him. it was there before mr.floyd was on the floor. you can see this from officer j.alexanders kuengs footage on his body camera...Personally, I think those police officers had an extremely hard time trying to restrain george floyd......he was saying he couldn't breathe when he was up against the wall and then sat down.......those witnesses only heard him saying something that he had been saying from when he first spoke to the police

MrStuffins · 31-03-2021 10:07pm

penny piper wrote: »

Enough to kill anyone else who hadn't had the drug before...but as he was so used to it ....no it wouldn't kill him...

Great!

KeepItLight · 31-03-2021 10:09pm

MrStuffins wrote: »

Autopsies are meant to be extensive. They mention all sorts. This one mentions his tattoos for example

These are the autopsy notes you shared. In full. No mention of tattoos here or any other superfluous information. Just the high level, relevant facts:

Cause of death: Cardiopulmonary arrest complicating law enforcement subdual,
restraint, and neck compression
Manner of death: Homicide
How injury occurred: Decedent experienced a cardiopulmonary arrest while
being restrained by law enforcement officer(s)

Other significant conditions: Arteriosclerotic and hypertensive heart disease;
fentanyl intoxication; recent methamphetamine use.

Please direct any media inquiries to Carolyn Marinan, Hennepin County
Communications at carolyn.marinan@hennepin.us
Comments:
Manner of death classification is a statutory function of the medical examiner,
as part of death certification for purposes of vital statistics and public health.
Manner of death is not a legal determination of culpability or intent, and
should not be used to usurp the judicial process. Such decisions are outside
the scope of the Medical Examiner’s role or authority.
Under Minnesota state law, the Medical Examiner is a neutral and independent
office and is separate and distinct from any prosecutorial authority or law
enforcement agency.

If you are trying to pass off the bolded part as irrelevant factors re: the cause of death, then you are either being purposefully dishonest, or you have powers of deduction the likes of which I've never encountered before

penny piper · 31-03-2021 10:11pm

MrStuffins wrote: »

Great!

You take out of context what suits your own agenda.....very clever

MrStuffins · 31-03-2021 10:13pm

penny piper wrote: »

You take out of context what suits your own agenda.....very clever

The drugs didn't kill him. You agree with this.

By the way.......

MrStuffins wrote: »

So, considering you compare this case to the other cases, I assume you think Chauvin is also culpable.

So I also assume you think he should be held accountable here?

Any more insights here by the way? I think I missed your riposte

MrStuffins · 31-03-2021 10:18pm

KeepItLight wrote: »

These are the autopsy notes you shared. In full. No mention of tattoos.....

This is the post you're looking for......

BattleCorp wrote: »

That's not the autopsy that I linked to, it's a link to what cardiopulmonary arrest is and the causes.......and Floyd had the causes of it (coronary artery disease).

Here's the link to the Hennepin County autopsy.

https://www.mercurynews.com/2020/06/05/read-george-floyd-autopsy-report-with-cause-of-death-and-other-factors/

osarusan · 31-03-2021 10:20pm

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

I can't see a world where Chauvin doesn't get convicted but I do wonder which charge.

The case of Tony Timpa is worth examining as a comparison. Very similar to Floyd in some ways.

He called the police on himself, as he was coming off his schizophrenia and depression meds and was having a psychotic episode. Dallas police sent officers trained to deal with such situations, and by the time they arrived he had already been handcuffed by security staff at a nearby business.

To restrain him, they laid him prone, then kneeled on him, and just laughed and joked as he told them they were killing him. When he stopped making any sound, they said stuff like “It’s time for school! Wake up!”

All of this was captured on body cam footage.

About 15 minutes later, when the paramedics arrived, they realised he was dead almost immediately. The autopsy was ruled a homicide due to '“sudden cardiac death due to the toxic effects of cocaine and physiological stress associated with physical restraint”.

Yet charges of excessive force against the officers involved were dismissed.

So I can see a world where Chauvin is found not guilty. Looking at it from the Irish context, we might think there is no way in the world that it can't be against the law in some way, but the protections offered to police can go well beyond what we imagine or consider right.

KeepItLight · 31-03-2021 10:24pm

MrStuffins wrote: »

This is the post you're looking for......

No it isn't. That is a post from another user.

This is the post I was referring to. And the autopsy I'm talking about. The one you shared.

MrStuffins wrote: »

Here is the report: https://content.govdelivery.com/attachments/MNHENNE/2020/06/01/file_attachments/1464238/2020-3700%20Floyd,%20George%20Perry%20Update%206.1.2020.pdf

Why are you trying to misrepresent people instead of addressing the question?

MrStuffins · 31-03-2021 10:26pm

KeepItLight wrote: »

No it isn't. That is a post from another user.

This is the post I was referring to. And the autopsy I'm talking about. The one you shared.

Why are you trying to misrepresent people instead of addressing the question?

Does the message I quoted not include the full autopsy?

penny piper · 31-03-2021 10:27pm

MrStuffins wrote: »

The drugs didn't kill him. You agree with this.

By the way.......

Any more insights here by the way? I think I missed your riposte

I didn't say the drugs killed him ..

Re read my posts instead of just taking out of context remarks to suit your own agenda...

Zatoichi · 31-03-2021 10:35pm

RTE Headline: US jury shown video of a 'smiling' George Floyd in shop

The jury watched video today that showed a cheerful-looking Mr Floyd in his final minutes inside a grocery store before he ended up below Derek Chauvin on the road outside, a scene that the cashier, Christopher Martin, told the jury he watched in disbelief.

...He appears to be filled with energy and constantly in motion, at one point almost dancing on the spot, shifting his weight from one foot to the other.

Just 'happy' and 'smiling'. Totally not someone clearly on drugs swaying and randomly jumping up and down. No, smiling and happy and totally at peace. Making 'cheerful conversation' just like any normal person. Absolutely pathetic manipulation of events.

"I thought that George didn't really know it was a fake bill," the 19-year-old told the jury. He considered letting Cup Foods just dock it from his wages, but ended up telling his manager and a few minutes later police were arresting Mr Floyd on suspicion of passing a counterfeit.

He also said George was in earlier with the same friend, the latter also tried passing a fake bill but was refused. The real reason the cashier accepted George's bill because he knew he was on drugs and didn't want to aggravate him.

Mr Martin told the jury that he made conversation with Mr Floyd, asking him if he played baseball. Mr Floyd seemed to take time to find his words but replied that he played football, he told the court.

What he actually said was he 'found it hard to form words' BECAUSE HE WAS ON DRUGS.

KeepItLight · 31-03-2021 10:35pm

MrStuffins wrote: »

Does the message I quoted not include the full autopsy?

Why are you so afraid to address my questions? I shared the link to your post with the autopsy you shared. Several times.

I also printed it out in full. And highlighted the specific part of it we are talking about, so you can't wriggle your way out of it.

Your response is to ignore my questions, share a different autopsy report shared by another user and double down on that.

At this point, I am not engaging with you any more. You are purposefully trying to derail this thread and not engaging with other posters in good faith.

lawrencesummers · 31-03-2021 10:37pm

osarusan wrote: »

The case of Tony Timpa is worth examining as a comparison. Very similar to Floyd in some ways.

He called the police on himself, as he was coming off his schizophrenia and depression meds and was having a psychotic episode. Dallas police sent officers trained to deal with such situations, and by the time they arrived he had already been handcuffed by security staff at a nearby business.

To restrain him, they laid him prone, then kneeled on him, and just laughed and joked as he told them they were killing him. When he stopped making any sound, they said stuff like “It’s time for school! Wake up!”

All of this was captured on body cam footage.

About 15 minutes later, when the paramedics arrived, they realised he was dead almost immediately. The autopsy was ruled a homicide due to '“sudden cardiac death due to the toxic effects of cocaine and physiological stress associated with physical restraint”.

Yet charges of excessive force against the officers involved were dismissed.

So I can see a world where Chauvin is found not guilty. Looking at it from the Irish context, we might think there is no way in the world that it can't be against the law in some way, but the protections offered to police can go well beyond what we imagine or consider right.

I wouldn’t say a “world” where it can happen, but if there is one country in the world where it could happen then it’s the US.

Your example highlights the absurdity of the country, store security guards having handcuffs. A job occupied by people who don’t tend to command a high level of intelligence at the best of times and they are allowed to use handcuffs.