Derek Chauvin murder trial (George Floyd)

MrStuffins

KeepItLight wrote: »

Why are you so afraid to address my questions?

You asked why the other things would be in the autopsy.

I told you everything is recorded, including tattoos.

I then linked you to a post showing you that.

Pretty simple!

two wheels good

ELM327 wrote: »

I did not dodge the question, I answered it.
I believe he was likely to have suffered a cardiac event as he had swallowed all of the narcotics he was carrying when the police arrived so as not to be caught.

Speculation. It hasn't been established he took anything after the cops confronted him.

Rodin

Rodin wrote: »

Except that it's not unquestionable that he caused his death.

I can't wait to hear your argument...

Mellor

irelandrover wrote: »

Chavin. I think it will be very easy to show that. However the autopsies haven't found that he killed Floyd.

Both autopseys found the cause of death to be homicide.It's not the ME's role to speculate as to who that might be. But there's literally only one person it could be.

BattleCorp wrote: »

You are really hung up on Chauvin causing Floyd's death. Here, if this makes you happy, I think Chauvin caused Floyd's death, in conjunction with drugs, poor health, dodgy police restraint techniques etc.

That makes him guilty, at the very least, of the manslaughter charge.
Possibly the murder 3 charge.

Even if Chauvin caused Floyd's death, that doesn't necessarily mean that Chauvin is guilty of anything. There are circumstances where causing someone's death isn't a criminal offence. I'm not saying this is one of them, but it's a possibility.

Yes. There are instances where homicide is justified. Self defence for example.
But this wasn't self defence.

Once we've agree that Chauvin caused it (in contribution with health factors) then it is manslaughter. Health issues do not alleviate that.

walshb wrote: »

Chauvin was part of Floyd’s death, but not necessarily the only cause...

Ne doesn't need to be the only cause to be guilty of the lesser charges.
Poor health doesn't reduce criminality.

penny piper wrote: »

Is the autopsy quote you just gave there from Mr.Loyds family independent quote or by the Hennepin county medical examiner's office? didn't they find differences in the way Floyd died?

No. They found it was homicide.
One ruled the cause was asphyxiation. (ie he was choked to death)
The other ruled it was cardiac arrest due to restraint and neck compression. (ie his heart stopped because he was choked to death)

Basically the same thing, although the later would include blood chokes/strangle with neck compression.

Mellor

penny piper wrote: »

I do not think Chauvan deliberately set out to kill mr.floyd....

Nor do I. Would be actually insanity if that was his logi at the time.

But nobody has accused him of deliberately killing Flloyd. Not sure why this his to be repeated.

osarusan wrote: »

To restrain him, they laid him prone, then kneeled on him, and just laughed and joked as he told them they were killing him. When he stopped making any sound, they said stuff like “It’s time for school! Wake up!”

All of this was captured on body cam footage.

About 15 minutes later, when the paramedics arrived, they realised he was dead almost immediately. The autopsy was ruled a homicide due to '“sudden cardiac death due to the toxic effects of cocaine and physiological stress associated with physical restraint”.

That's obviously a ridiculous outcome to that case. Cops are clearly culpable to a degree. But I think the differences there are more interesting that the similarities.

The cause of death there is listed as '“sudden cardiac death...” and not homicide.
Also drugs are listed as part of the cause of death, rather than being listed as part of other non-fatal info.


I don't know what state that was in, but it would sounds like it the cops was completely indifferent to the suffer on the guy who was dying. That key info required in this case.

Windmill100000

Mellor wrote: »

Nor do I. Would be actually insanity if that was his logi at the time.

But nobody has accused him of deliberately killing Flloyd. Not sure why this his to be repeated.



That's obviously a ridiculous outcome to that case. Cops are clearly culpable to a degree. But I think the differences there are more interesting that the similarities.

The cause of death there is listed as '“sudden cardiac death...” and not homicide.
Also drugs are listed as part of the cause of death, rather than being listed as part of other non-fatal info.


I don't know what state that was in, but it would sounds like it the cops was completely indifferent to the suffer on the guy who was dying. That key info required in this case.

If you are crushing a man's neck and the man says "I cant breathe" until he goes limp and stops moving, what do you call that?

An accident?

Mellor

Windmill100000 wrote: »

If you are crushing a man's neck and the man says "I cant breathe" until he goes limp and stops moving, what do you call that?

An accident?

It’s called homicide. Of which there are multiple degrees. You don’t seem to get that.

Windmill100000

Mellor wrote: »

It’s called homicide. Of which there are multiple degrees. You don’t seem to get that.

I get it alright. I hope Chauvin gets the harshest possible sentence as well.

Mellor

Windmill100000 wrote: »

I get it alright. I hope Chauvin gets the harshest possible sentence as well.

I don't think you do. Because he isn't charge with the crime you are suggesting. (ie intentional murder). There is literally no chance of it happening. You are entitled to your opinion, but the prosecution didn't agree with you, and hasn't laid that charge out.

As I said, he hasn't been accused him of deliberately killing Floyd. As such it's not relevant to his guilt. or innocence

irelandrover

MrStuffins wrote: »

Correct. You don't know.

A "significant condition" means significant condition, not contributing factor.

Nowhere does it say any of these things contributed to his death. It actually gives the cause of death:

Why do you think the Floyd family got their own autopsy if both autopsies say the same thing? What were they hoping to find on the second autopsy?

Windmill100000

Mellor wrote: »

I don't think you do. Because he isn't charge with the crime you are suggesting. (ie intentional murder). There is literally no chance of it happening. You are entitled to your opinion, but the prosecution didn't agree with you, and hasn't laid that charge out.

As I said, he hasn't been accused him of deliberately killing Floyd. As such it's not relevant to his guilt. or innocence

Yes, I am entitled to my opinion. And, as stated, I hope gets the harshest sentence he is due.

Pa ElGrande

**WARNING: The video contains graphic content and language. Viewer discretion is advised.**

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0gQYMBALDXc

The footage is from the body-worn cameras of former Minneapolis police officers Thomas Lane and J. Alexander Kueng. The footage shows the arrest of Floyd and the moments leading up to his death.

First Body Cam:

6:20- Cop asks if he’s on something, and say’s he’s acting erratic, points out he’s got foam around his mouth too, George responds “A little bit, earlier”

7:42- Cop takes a pipe from his pocket.

9:00- Cop offers to roll the windows down for him if he put’s his legs in the vehicle. (He has been refusing to get in the vehicle since arriving at it.)

9:13- man on the street encourages George to comply with the cops.

9:35- George offers to get on the ground rather than in the car

9:45- George insists he is claustrophobic and continues to resist getting into the vehicle as cops try to get him inside it.

10:36- multiple officers try to get him into the vehicle and he crawls through to the far side and back out, refusing to comply

11:00- George says he can’t breath and continues to refuse to get in the vehicle.

11:05- Bystander asks if he’s going to jail, cop replies he’s under arrest for forgery.

11:14- George says he can’t breath again and the cop gives up on getting him in the car telling him to come out and lay on his side. George continues to insist he can’t breath as he cries, before asking to stay where he is on the ground.

12:36- Cop reports that medical assistance is already on their way.

14:02- Cop asks George what he’s on, George responds by telling him he can’t breathe.

14:09- By standards tell George to get into the car and George say’s he will, but he can’t move.

14:20- Cop is concerned someone might have laced George’s weed with something like PCP.

14:50- After George repeatedly insists he can’t breathe one of the cops points out that he’s doing a lot of yelling and that takes a lot of oxygen.

16:03- Cop expresses worry about George’s state, but is reassured that an ambulance is on the way.

16:15- bystander’s stop and begin arguing with the cop to get him off the ground. Accusing cops of ‘enjoying it’. Saying they could have had him in the car. (These are new bystanders who hadn’t witnessed their earlier struggle or George offering to lay on the ground rather than be in the car.)

16:40- George stops struggling.

17:35- Cops warn new bystanders not to come over as they insist he is not responsive.

18:00- Cop checks his pulse after bystanders urging. He is unable to find one. Outraged the bystanders demand to be shown his pulse.

19:00 other cops make attempts to find his pulse.

19:40- Bystanders begin yelling about the cop crushing his neck. They are yelling and seem to be trying to grow a crowd.

20:56- Ambulance arrives and they take George away.

23:30- (Returning to the other two in the car0 Bystanders come and tell them they better tell their family. They ask what happened to him and the bystander says he f***ed up and didn’t listen to the cops. (Think it’s the same bystander who was urging him to get in the car and listen to them)

24:20- cop returns to the store for the counterfeit bill and asks who gave it to them.

26:00- more medics show up while he’s in the shop, asking where he is, and he explains there was a crowd, so the other medics moved him. Turning back to the workers they describe a man looking like George Floyd as the one who gave them the fake bill.

29:00- Cop takes counterfeit bill to an evidence envelope.



2nd cop cam perspective: (30:34)

32:30- Cop asks to see Floyds hands, George apologizes, opening the door, cop asks to see both hands and when he’s slow to do so cop pulls a gun on him demanding to see both hands.

32:46- cop aggressively tells him to keep his hands on the wheel

32:00- Floyd tells the officer he got shot like that before, and the officer responds he should put his hands on the wheel when asked to.

33:00- cop tells Floyd to put his hands on his head, when he does so the cop puts his gun away. Floyd then takes his hands off his head.

33:24- Cop asks Floyd to step out of the vehicle and step away, Floyd asks him not to shoot him, saying he just lost his mom. Cop tells him he won’t shoot him.

33:55- cop pulls him out of the car when he fails to comply and they cuff him. Cop tells him to stop resisting.

34:40- cop questions the other two from the vehicle while Floyd is sat down by the other officer.

35:40- he asks why Floyd is acting weird and they claim it’s because he’s been shot before. He asks if he’s on something and they say no, but he has problems saying he smokes joints but he’s a good guy.

36:40- he explains to them that someone used a fake bill and that’s why they had them get out of the car.

36:50- Cop asks another officer to watch the car to make sure they don’t go in it.

38:28- Floyd says he’s claustrophobic, and the cop says he’s still going in the car as the other officer hands him the pipe he’s found on Floyd.

38:50- Floyd asks officer if he can crack it for him (I’m assuming the window) and the cop assures him he will. Floyd thanks him. The cop checks his pocket one last time before saying he’s good, and Floyd refuses to get in the car.

39:30- Officer tells him he’ll roll down the windows for him if he gets in the car. Bystander urges him to listen to the cops, the cop tries to urge him into the car before going to the other side to try and get him inside. Warning him he’ll pull him in.

40:40- cop tries to pull him in, telling him to take a seat. Floyd fights against them to stay out of the car. Coming right through the car and out the other door by 41:22.

41:40- Floyd says he can’t breathe. Other officers show up to try and help get him into the car. Before giving up and letting him out of the car. Cop pulls his leg and takes his shoes off (not sure if this is procedure of an accident). Cop thanks the others for helping. Floyd is yelling so much at this point that hearing the cops becomes difficult from this perspective.

44:30- Cops tell Floyd he’s talking fine. And a few seconds later ask him what he’s on.

47:30- Officer says he thinks he’s passing out as his legs go limp. They continue waiting for an ambulance.

48:00- Bystanders begin yelling at cops and drawing a crowd.

48:35- Bystanders begin yelling at each other and as well as at the cops to check a pulse and to let them see his pulse. Cops look for his pulse.

51:03- angle changes to show cops have been blocking him from the street, ambulance shows up.

52:50- Cop stays in the ambulance, explains what happens.

53:36- Cop starts CPR on Floyd in an attempt to revive him.

56:00- They set him up to the automated CPR machine.

1:00:28- Cop leaves the ambulance gets into another vehicle. Explains to the people in that vehicle what happened as he fidgets with cuffs. He hasn’t taken off the medical gloves. Another person in the car tries to cheer up the officer, who is clearly agitated and upset by the situation.

Police Officer Lanes interview


A Police training manual


George Floyd’s Complete Autopsy Report (Full)

pjohnson

Windmill100000 wrote: »

Yes, I am entitled to my opinion. And, as stated, I hope gets the harshest sentence he is due.

Well America is set to let the Martens free so its "justice" actually doesnt mind letting murderers away with it.

penny piper

Windmill100000 wrote: »

If you are crushing a man's neck and the man says "I cant breathe" until he goes limp and stops moving, what do you call that?

An accident?

I think it should be noted from the police officer's own camera shown that george floyd when first approached in a car (where he was sitting in the driving seat)...as soon as the police came up to him ....he was sayiig "i'm gonna die" ...."i can't breathe" when he was up against the wall...when he was asked to get into the police car.....long before anyone restrained him as in the latter end.....

osarusan

penny piper wrote: »

I think it should be noted from the police officer's own camera shown that george floyd when first approached in a car (where he was sitting in the driving seat)...as soon as the police came up to him ....he was sayiig "i'm gonna die" ...."i can't breathe" when he was up against the wall...when he was asked to get into the police car.....long before anyone restrained him as in the latter end.....

This is true, he was saying how he couldn't breathe before the knee restraint happened. He was also saying stuff like 'tell my kids I love them' soon after had had been restrained on the ground.

So I can see the defence using that as an example of how they would not necessarily take what he said seriously. But I don't think that goes very far as an argument.

Disregarding anything Floyd did or said, they have a duty of care even to him, once he no longer represented an imminent threat. Chauvin had already had training that dealt with the dangers of positional asphyxiation. He was in a position to monitor Floyd's condition, which is considered an essential element of that restraint technigue, but either failed to do so, or didn't stop the restraint after noticing.

I just can't see how the defence argue their way out of that.

Fandymo

startrek56 wrote: »

it was fairly clear even on video he was not breathing/dead, cop should have known

It’s fairly clear after the fact. In the heat of the moment it probably wasn’t as clear.

Fandymo

startrek56 wrote: »

it was fairly clear even on video he was not breathing/dead, cop should have known

It was clear after the fact. Probably not quite so clear in the heat of the moment

penny piper

osarusan wrote: »

This is true, he was saying how he couldn't breathe before the knee restraint happened. He was also saying stuff like 'tell my kids I love them' soon after had had been restrained on the ground.

So I can see the defence using that as an example of how they would not necessarily take what he said seriously. But I don't think that goes very far as an argument.

Disregarding anything Floyd did or said, they have a duty of care even to him, once he no longer represented an imminent threat. Chauvin had already had training that dealt with the dangers of positional asphyxiation. He was in a position to monitor Floyd's condition, which is considered an essential element of that restraint technigue, but either failed to do so, or didn't stop the restraint after noticing.

I just can't see how the defence argue their way out of that.

I think the defense will use the fact that chauvan carried out the restraint technique as per the minneapolis police dept training manuel which advocates knee to neck restraint...and that the reason he didn't stop restraining floyd was because of a term called excited delirium (something to do with people who have been taking drugs) idk about the term to be honest.....

ThewhiteJesus

penny piper wrote: »

I think the defense will use the fact that chauvan carried out the restraint technique as per the minneapolis police dept training manuel which advocates knee to kneck restraint...and that the reason he didn't stop restraining floyd was because of a term called excited delirium (something to do with people who have been taking drugs) idk about the term to be honest.....

People on drugs are so dangerous as they hardly feel pain and feel invincible, any cop hates dealing with them, especially a man this big who's calling for his momma, clearly not compos mentis, doesn't mean he deserved to die obviously but you can see why restraint was needed

UsBus

Just watched the whole arrest footage there shown on sky news. The whole incident was escalated by George Floyd refusing arrest. Once he ended up lying on the street, I don't understand why the cops would feel the need to put a knee on the neck, no need to restrain in that way. Instead of pandering to him, they should have enforced getting him into the back of the car, I would have thought 3 of them could achieve that. Seems so pointless and unfortunate how it materialised with his death. No excusing the length of time compressing his neck like that.

Lundstram

Felt so bad for the 19 shop worker yesterday. Seems like a great lad but he says his life has been hell since this began and been driven out of his community for reporting the fake bill.

On the flip side, the fire brigade worker is one of the most unlikable people I've ever seen in a court room. The judge was 100% to give her a dressing down.

1800_Ladladlad

The new york times profiled multiple jurors by their profession, age, race, and statements on political movements. This is irresponsible and dangerous. The fact that the jurors are anonymous, enrages the media because they don't get to dox the jurors, which would have lead to BLM cult descending on their homes to intimidate jurors

“Nice life you’ve got here. Hope you vote the right way in this trial; it’d be a shame if someone had the ability to find your identities and leak enough details about your personal life for you to be publicly identified. We hope bad things happen.”

https://twitter.com/nytimes/status/1377244332395220992

penny piper

George Floyd's friend Morries Lester Hall who was with Floyd in the car the day he was arrested (and who orignally said he would be the voice of george floyd in his trial) has refused to testify at the trial ....stating that he would plead the 5th amendment if he was asked to testify for either side....he had previously stated numerous time that Floyd had not resisted arrest and that he himself had tried to diffuse any situation with floyd/police officers...he had been on the state's witness list but applied to hennepin district court and filed a motion against been called as witness..to avoid self incrimination...

wicklowstevo

penny piper wrote: »

George Floyd's friend Morries Lester Hall who was with Floyd in the car the day he was arrested (and who orignally said he would be the voice of george floyd in his trial) has refused to testify at the trial ....stating that he would plead the 5th amendment if he was asked to testify for either side....he had previously stated numerous time that Floyd had not resisted arrest and that he himself had tried to diffuse any situation with floyd/police officers...he had been on the state's witness list but applied to hennepin district court and filed a motion against been called as witness..to avoid self incrimination...

worried about the difference between his statements and what's on the body cam footage . or some crime he was committing at the time ?

in a normal trial a prosecution witness like that refusing to testify would be a major red flag for defence and judge and jury

penny piper

wicklowstevo wrote: »

worried about the difference between his statements and what's on the body cam footage . or some crime he was committing at the time ?

in a normal trial a prosecution witness like that refusing to testify would be a major red flag for defence and judge and jury

He had outstanding warrants out for his arrest...felony possession of a firearm..
felony domestic assault....and felony drug possession at the time of floyd's death..he left the city two days after floyd's death and went to texas.....seems like a nice guy....:rolleyes:

Eric Cartman

1800_Ladladlad wrote: »

The new york times profiled multiple jurors by their profession, age, race, and statements on political movements. This is irresponsible and dangerous. The fact that the jurors are anonymous, enrages the media because they don't get to dox the jurors, which would have lead to BLM cult descending on their homes to intimidate jurors

“Nice life you’ve got here. Hope you vote the right way in this trial; it’d be a shame if someone had the ability to find your identities and leak enough details about your personal life for you to be publicly identified. We hope bad things happen.”

https://twitter.com/nytimes/status/1377244332395220992

"There are two white men and four white women" , if theres a split jury or a less than out and out murder verdict those 6 people are 100% getting the blame even though it may not be them. Sadly they'll be hunted, exposed, doxxed and likely attacked if the outcome isn't what twitter wants.

MrStuffins

Eric Cartman wrote: »

"There are two white men and four white women" , if theres a split jury or a less than out and out murder verdict those 6 people are 100% getting the blame even though it may not be them. Sadly they'll be hunted, exposed, doxxed and likely attacked if the outcome isn't what twitter wants.

Agenda-driven rubbish!

Green Peter

MrStuffins wrote: »

Agenda-driven rubbish!

I have no doubt he'll be aquitted before a jury when the evidence is scrutinized in the calm of the court room and not on CNN or biased media, I'll go with 11 to 1 which will cover the black jurors from a backlash that they may have been the one against. You heard it here first!

Nozebleed

following the girlfriends testimony its clear to see the BLM narrative is falling to pieces..

penny piper

Chauvan's lawyer has so far shown floyd's gf....was unsure of what she had said previously and discredited her.... also asking her what nicname floyd had for her....which was "mama".....

The paramedic was absolutely terrible ...very unsure of what he was saying to both the prosecution/defense.....he seemed to have played a very little part in anything....seemed to be the police officer/his partner that was doing everything... the paramedic also stated when questioned by Nelson that he agreed that Floyd was laid slightly on his left hand side.....

At the moment the case is clearly going in the defense's favour....Nelson excellent ..

I still have the opinion Nelson is trying to show/will show that chauvan carried out the restraint technique according to the minneapolis police dept manual knee to neck ....and and added to the state of excited delirium was the reason chauvan continued the restraint....