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Derek Chauvin murder trial (George Floyd)

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    #632
    briany
    Registered Users Posts: 13,988 ✭✭✭✭briany


    1800_Ladladlad wrote: »
    he actually had 11 ng/ml of fentanyl and 19 ng/ml of methamphetamine in his bloodstream postmortem. The US media are reporting these significant findings as simply "traces" of fentanyl in the bloodstream. That's literally a lethal amount of fentanyl without even factoring in the meth.

    https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:-GaYvmz1ZBwJ:https://www.kare11.com/article/news/local/george-floyd/evidence-details-fentanyl-levels-george-floyds-body/89-70cf8552-1810-4462-a726-077b897e7378+&cd=4&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=ie

    Although the defence is arguing that fentanyl and methamphetamine, in addition to heart problems, was a greater factor in Floyd's death than the actions of the arresting officer charged with Floyd's murder, one Derek Chauvin, they likely face an uphill battle in convincing the court of this when you come to the question of tolerance he'd built up through use and whether the state he was in when under the knee of Chauvin was one consistent with undergoing an overdose.

    But following on from the logic that Floyd was a man at death's door even before the knee on his neck, it doesn't necessarily absolve Chauvin from being the greatest factor in Floyd's death at that time. If someone were to get in a physical altercation with someone suffering from a potentially imminently-fatal condition like end stage cancer or an undiagnosed heart condition, and that person died immediately following that, it doesn't necessarily absolve the accused party given the victim's compromised physical condition as you have to prove that the person was about to die whether or not the victim would have died around that time even if that altercation hadn't happened, and if you can't prove that, then you have to conclude that the altercation was the greater factor in the victim's death on that day and that still constitutes a killing.

    To add to all that, as a police officer, if the person you have restrained is repeatedly telling you that they are in physical distress, you have a duty of care to hear that and work with them to alleviate that. You don't just continue to nonchalantly kneel on their neck like they've not said anything at all. That is, at best, criminal negligence.


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    #633
    Tell me how
    Registered Users Posts: 21,680 ✭✭✭✭Tell me how


    Eric Cartman wrote: »
    Not supporting a violent, racist extremist political movement does not make someone biased ,

    What does not understanding what BLM is make someone Eric?

    Or, to be fair, you probably do understand it but just don't agree with the idea of the police treating people appropriately.

    What does misrepresenting what BLM is make someone might be a more accurate question to ask.


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    #634
    CtevenSrowder
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,909 ✭✭✭CtevenSrowder


    Tell me how wrote: »
    What does not understanding what BLM is make someone Eric?

    Or, to be fair, you probably do understand it but just don't agree with the idea of the police treating people appropriately.

    What does misrepresenting what BLM is make someone might be a more accurate question to ask.

    What an organisation claim to be and what they are are sometime two very different things.


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    #635
    osarusan
    Registered Users Posts: 16,639 ✭✭✭✭osarusan


    Minneapolis top homicide investigator not doing Chauvin any favours.

    https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-56616888
    The top homicide investigator in the US city of Minneapolis has said former police officer Derek Chauvin used "totally unnecessary" force when arresting George Floyd.

    ...

    He said officers were responsible for the safety and wellbeing of anyone they arrested.

    "Totally unnecessary," he said, when asked about Mr Chauvin's actions. "If your knee is on a person's neck, that can kill them."

    He added that he could see no reason for Mr Chauvin to keep his knee on Mr Floyd for more than nine minutes.

    "First of all, pulling him down to the ground facedown and putting your knee on a neck for that amount of time is just uncalled for," he said.

    "I saw no reason why the officers felt they were in danger, if that's what they felt... and that's what they would have to have felt to be able to use that kind of force."

    Does a high-ranking police officer testifying 'against' an officer like that represent something out of the ordinary in this kind of trial, or do trials like these often include testimony from police that offer both sides of the argument?


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    #636
    pjohnson
    Registered Users Posts: 23,732 ✭✭✭✭pjohnson


    osarusan wrote: »
    Minneapolis top homicide investigator not doing Chauvin any favours.

    https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-56616888



    Does a high-ranking police officer testifying 'against' an officer like that represent something out of the ordinary in this kind of trial, or do trials like these often include testimony from police that offer both sides of the argument?

    But Eric Cartman,Biker79,the Dunne, Penny Piper and DavidLyons all claimed Chauvin was in danger and his response totally justified?

    Do they know better than Minneapolis top homicide investigator?


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    #637
    penny piper
    Registered Users Posts: 524 ✭✭✭penny piper


    osarusan wrote: »
    Minneapolis top homicide investigator not doing Chauvin any favours.

    https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-56616888



    Does a high-ranking police officer testifying 'against' an officer like that represent something out of the ordinary in this kind of trial, or do trials like these often include testimony from police that offer both sides of the argument?


    He might have been/is a high ranking officer (Zimmerman?) but he had clearly no idea for over 28 years what the officers on the street in minneapolis are dealing with...isn't he basically an officer who is in the "office" most of the time?...he seemed like a pleasant man ....but one that is living in the past of how things were in his day and thinking they are the same now.......the defence lawyer did cross examine him......the last question that was allowed by the judge which I think should not have been (i think Nelson objected but the judge allowed it) shouldn't have been because zimmerman is not an expert it was the one which asked about what did he think about the knee on floyds neck for 9mins .It was bad for the defense in that the jury was left with his answer he gave to ponder over all week-end...good for the prosecution....


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    #638
    TomTomTim
    Registered Users Posts: 2,841 ✭✭✭TomTomTim


    osarusan wrote: »
    Minneapolis top homicide investigator not doing Chauvin any favours.

    https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-56616888



    Does a high-ranking police officer testifying 'against' an officer like that represent something out of the ordinary in this kind of trial, or do trials like these often include testimony from police that offer both sides of the argument?

    Reading that, his choice of words are interesting. He's not claiming Chauvin broke any rules or standards set by the department, the framing seems to be his own personal opinion, not standards set from above. Which begs the question, what is the relevance?

    “The man who lies to himself can be more easily offended than anyone else. You know it is sometimes very pleasant to take offense, isn't it? A man may know that nobody has insulted him, but that he has invented the insult for himself, has lied and exaggerated to make it picturesque, has caught at a word and made a mountain out of a molehill--he knows that himself, yet he will be the first to take offense, and will revel in his resentment till he feels great pleasure in it.”- ― Fyodor Dostoevsky, The Brothers Karamazov




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    #639
    penny piper
    Registered Users Posts: 524 ✭✭✭penny piper


    pjohnson wrote: »
    But Eric Cartman,Biker79,the Dunne, Penny Piper and DavidLyons all claimed Chauvin was in danger and his response totally justified?

    Do they know better than Minneapolis top homicide investigator?

    i'm not sure the "minneapolis top homicide investigator" even had a clue about some of the techniques of restraint that are/were acceptable to the minneapolis police dept as per manual.....he actually contradicted himself several times when questioned by Eric Nelson....He's an officer that sits in an office for how long did he say???? 28years..he's not out on the streets....times have changed how he could/would have restrained someone that long ago is not the same as what police officers have to face today....
    What action would you have taken?????
    what about the paramedics who arrived?
    The paramedic who took floyd's pulse took it as Chauvan/police officers were still restraining floyd.....why didn't they say something? The paramedics only asked the police officers to move when chauvan was about to be put into the ambulance....and also said they moved the ambulance basically for safety reasons as the first paramedic witness said the crowd was getting angry...


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    #640
    Eric Cartman
    Registered Users Posts: 26,280 ✭✭✭✭Eric Cartman


    pjohnson wrote: »
    But Eric Cartman,Biker79,the Dunne, Penny Piper and DavidLyons all claimed Chauvin was in danger and his response totally justified?

    Do they know better than Minneapolis top homicide investigator?

    I cant speak for the others , but I personally have never claimed the death of George floyd was justified.

    Chauvin was in danger , its just a pity a lethal cocktail of drugs, a heart condition and outdated restraint training culminated together to result in the death of a violent criminal high on drugs who decided to resist arrest.

    In the order of things that could have prevented georges death :

    Not trying to use a forged 20
    Not being high on fentanyl and meth
    Not having a heart condition caused by drug abuse
    Not resisting arrest
    Not having a violent criminal past and being known to cops
    Chauvin having been trained in a better technique


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    #641
    briany
    Registered Users Posts: 13,988 ✭✭✭✭briany


    Eric Cartman wrote: »
    Chauvin was in danger

    He wasn't in danger by the time he had Floyd prone on the ground, handcuffed, with his knee on Floyd's neck. Floyd had been restrained. There isn't really any excuses for continuing to kneel on the neck of an already restrained man, and if Chauvin and his colleagues thought that Floyd continued to pose a threat; if they couldn't deal with a weakened, handcuffed man, they didn't have any business being police. To reiterate - no excuse for kneeling on the neck for that long while Floyd was begging for breath. Chauvin acted with extreme callousness.


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    #642
    penny piper
    Registered Users Posts: 524 ✭✭✭penny piper


    briany wrote: »
    He wasn't in danger by the time he had Floyd prone on the ground, handcuffed, with his knee on Floyd's neck. Floyd had been restrained. There isn't really any excuses for continuing to kneel on the neck of an already restrained man, and if Chauvin and his colleagues thought that Floyd continued to pose a threat; if they couldn't deal with a weakened, handcuffed man, they didn't have any business being police. To reiterate - no excuse for kneeling on the neck for that long while Floyd was begging for breath. Chauvin acted with extreme callousness.

    Who knows how weakened he was by then ...he wasn't a "small slim man" that the firefighter thought she saw (hansen) he was 6ft 6 high on drugs...yes he was restrained but.maybe they (the officers) did think he still posed a danger....

    I'm not positive but i thought the first paramedic when giving evidence told Nelson that Floyd was turned slightly to the left.....

    Didn't Floyd have a history of using that term "I can't breathe" when he faced the police in previous situations...


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    #643
    MrStuffins
    Registered Users Posts: 19,198 ✭✭✭✭MrStuffins


    osarusan wrote: »
    "Totally unnecessary," he said, when asked about Mr Chauvin's actions. "If your knee is on a person's neck, that can kill them."

    He added that he could see no reason for Mr Chauvin to keep his knee on Mr Floyd for more than nine minutes.

    "First of all, pulling him down to the ground facedown and putting your knee on a neck for that amount of time is just uncalled for," he said.

    "I saw no reason why the officers felt they were in danger, if that's what they felt... and that's what they would have to have felt to be able to use that kind of force."

    This is it in a nutshell. Mr Chauvin had no reason to kill Mr Floyd.

    Completely unjustifiable!


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    #644
    DavidLyons_
    Registered Users Posts: 1,255 ✭✭✭DavidLyons_


    Eric Cartman wrote: »
    I cant speak for the others , but I personally have never claimed the death of George floyd was justified.

    Chauvin was in danger , its just a pity a lethal cocktail of drugs, a heart condition and outdated restraint training culminated together to result in the death of a violent criminal high on drugs who decided to resist arrest.

    In the order of things that could have prevented georges death :

    Not trying to use a forged 20
    Not being high on fentanyl and meth
    Not having a heart condition caused by drug abuse
    Not resisting arrest
    Not having a violent criminal past and being known to cops
    Chauvin having been trained in a better technique

    The poster you’ve quoted there mentions me in his lies there. I have him on ignore because he constantly argues in bad faith and only saw the post because you quoted it.

    If he reads this, I would like him to quote my post that he alludes to because this is my very first post in this thread.

    For what it’s worth, I believe that the drugs and medical condition of Floyd were contributory to his death in addition the police officer’s actions.

    Floyd was a violent criminal and I hope Chauvin walks as the world is a better place without people like Floyd. The people in his community are safer and better off for him not being around.

    The heroes picked by BLM to champion have been laughable.


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    #645
    Eric Cartman
    Registered Users Posts: 26,280 ✭✭✭✭Eric Cartman


    DavidLyons_ wrote: »
    The poster you’ve quoted there mentions me in is lies there. I have him on ignore because he constantly argues in bad faith and only saw the post because you quoted it.

    If he reads this, I would like him to quote my post that he alludes to because this is my very first post in this thread.

    Nobody (as far as I can see) has justified / supported the killing of floyd so I doubt they’ll quote anything


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    #646
    Faugheen
    Site Banned Posts: 12,341 ✭✭✭✭Faugheen


    pjohnson wrote: »
    But Eric Cartman,Biker79,the Dunne, Penny Piper and DavidLyons all claimed Chauvin was in danger and his response totally justified?

    Do they know better than Minneapolis top homicide investigator?

    Ha. It’s funny that in cases like this the same posters just happen to appear.


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    #647
    Nozebleed
    Registered Users Posts: 1,727 ✭✭✭Nozebleed


    i think when they bring the experts in to discuss the restraint technique by chauvin...the knee on the back/neck is not going to be as important as the drug ingestion. its clear after only 4 days testimony that floyd was in serious bad health before the officers restraining technique had a maojr impact. in my opinion this is a clear overdose...if anything chauvin and collegues are guilty of lack of appropriate medical care for someone having an overdose.


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    #648
    penny piper
    Registered Users Posts: 524 ✭✭✭penny piper


    MrStuffins wrote: »
    This is it in a nutshell. Mr Chauvin had no reason to kill Mr Floyd.

    Completely unjustifiable!

    That was evidence from a police officer that even didn't know what was allowed in the minneapolis police dept manual when questioned by eric nelson....he was also an officer that hadn't even been working on the streets of minneapolis in 28 years ...an office worker.. he wasn't a training officer..he wasn't an expert...he was giving a personal opinion..shouldn't have been allowed....imo... you obviously didn't see the trial ....chauvan is on trial....Chuavin hasn't been convicted of killing anyone yet.......


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    #649
    briany
    Registered Users Posts: 13,988 ✭✭✭✭briany


    penny piper wrote: »
    Who knows how weakened he was by then ...he wasn't a "small slim man" that the firefighter thought she saw (hansen) he was 6ft 6 high on drugs...yes he was restrained but.maybe they (the officers) did think he still posed a danger....

    I'm not positive but i thought the first paramedic when giving evidence told Nelson that Floyd was turned slightly to the left.....

    Didn't Floyd have a history of using that term "I can't breathe" when he faced the police in previous situations...

    If you've been restrained, then that should minimise the danger you pose. If four police officers are still afraid of a single handcuffed man prone on the ground, they're not really fit for their job. What was the end-game with that knee to the neck? Do it until Floyd said, "OK, I promise to be good. Now, let me up, pretty please."?

    What some people appear to be arguing is a sort of 'Schroedinger's Floyd' whereby he's simultaneously an incredibly big strong man who needed to be restrained above and beyond the typical while also being so weakened from the drugs and heart condition that his death had little to do with Chauvin, who was just acting in a normal capacity. And they'll hop back and forth between those two as it suits them.


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    #650
    Eric Cartman
    Registered Users Posts: 26,280 ✭✭✭✭Eric Cartman


    briany wrote: »
    If you've been restrained, then that should minimise the danger you pose. If four police officers are still afraid of a single handcuffed man prone on the ground, they're not really fit for their job. What was the end-game with that knee to the neck? Do it until Floyd said, "OK, I promise to be good. Now, let me up, pretty please."?

    What some people appear to be arguing is a sort of 'Schroedinger's Floyd' whereby he's simultaneously an incredibly big strong man who needed to be restrained above and beyond the typical while also being so weakened from the drugs and heart condition that his death had little to do with Chauvin, who was just acting in a normal capacity. And they'll hop back and forth between those two as it suits them.

    He’s hopped up on fentanyl and crystal meth , its going to be very hard to keep him still , not all heart conditions make someone weak and frail but they can kill you in an instant , its completely likely that george was very hard to restrain and then suddenly die of an overdose, heart conditions and being hard to restrain are not mutually exclusive


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    #651
    briany
    Registered Users Posts: 13,988 ✭✭✭✭briany


    Eric Cartman wrote: »
    He’s hopped up on fentanyl and crystal meth , its going to be very hard to keep him still , not all heart conditions make someone weak and frail but they can kill you in an instant , its completely likely that george was very hard to restrain and then suddenly die of an overdose, heart conditions and being hard to restrain are not mutually exclusive

    So, what you're saying is that it is perfectly likely that he died of an overdose exacerbated by a bad heart, and the knee to the neck was incidental?


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    #652
    MrStuffins
    Registered Users Posts: 19,198 ✭✭✭✭MrStuffins


    Faugheen wrote: »
    Ha. It’s funny that in cases like this the same posters just happen to appear.

    Sitting in the same room, thanking each other's posts before reading them

    AnSME7.gif

    Sure there were two people with the same name posting at the same time yesterday. Not very subtle :pac:


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    #653
    MrStuffins
    Registered Users Posts: 19,198 ✭✭✭✭MrStuffins


    penny piper wrote: »
    That was evidence from a police officer ......

    Forgive me if I believe the word of the top homicide investigator in Minneapolis over you pal


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    #654
    Nozebleed
    Registered Users Posts: 1,727 ✭✭✭Nozebleed


    briany wrote: »
    So, what you're saying is that it is perfectly likely that he died of an overdose exacerbated by a bad heart, and the knee to the neck was incidental?

    how much force was used in relation to the knee restraint has yet to be determined. was it enough to kill a man? i dont see it to be honest..evidence GF was already struggling before before any knee restraint was in effect. doesnt mean the knee restraint was appropriate given the condition of GF was in after taking a lethal cocktail of drugs.


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    #655
    MrStuffins
    Registered Users Posts: 19,198 ✭✭✭✭MrStuffins


    Eric Cartman wrote: »
    its completely likely that george was very hard to restrain and then suddenly die of an overdose

    If only there was a way to ascertain what the actual cause of death was.

    Like two autopsies!


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    #656
    MrStuffins
    Registered Users Posts: 19,198 ✭✭✭✭MrStuffins


    Nozebleed wrote: »
    how much force was used in relation to the knee restraint has yet to be determined. was it enough to kill a man?

    Yes.

    From the autopsy:
    Cause of death:
    “cardiopulmonary arrest complicating law-enforcement subdual restraint, and neck compression.”


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    #657
    growleaves
    Registered Users Posts: 7,859 ✭✭✭growleaves


    MrStuffins wrote: »
    Sitting in the same room, thanking each other's posts before reading them

    ???

    Ukrainian bot farm?


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    #658
    briany
    Registered Users Posts: 13,988 ✭✭✭✭briany


    Nozebleed wrote: »
    how much force was used in relation to the knee restraint has yet to be determined. was it enough to kill a man? i dont see it to be honest..evidence GF was already struggling before before any knee restraint was in effect. doesnt mean the knee restraint was appropriate given the condition of GF was in after taking a lethal cocktail of drugs.

    People keep saying the drugs he'd ingested were lethal. This needs qualifying:- lethal for who? Lethal for a first time user or lethal for someone who'd been using and had built up a tolerance?

    Now, before anyone says, "Lethal for someone with a bad heart, maybe?", they still have to come back to a pretty tenuous central argument in order to downplay Chauvin's culpability - that the knee on the neck was pretty much a coincidence.


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    #659
    Eric Cartman
    Registered Users Posts: 26,280 ✭✭✭✭Eric Cartman


    briany wrote: »
    People keep saying the drugs he'd ingested were lethal. This needs qualifying:- lethal for who? Lethal for a first time user or lethal for someone who'd been using and had built up a tolerance?

    Now, before anyone says, "Lethal for someone with a bad heart, maybe?", they still have to come back to a pretty tenuous central argument in order to downplay Chauvin's culpability - that the knee on the neck was pretty much a coincidence.

    Meth use really screws up the lungs https://www.webmd.com/connect-to-care/addiction-treatment-recovery/methamphetamine/meth-use-and-lung-health

    It might be easy enough to sway the jury that a normal person would still have been able to breath and chauvin wouldnt have killed them but in georges case his lungs were trashed by drugs and chauvin was just the final nail in a coffin that was already basically sealed


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    #660
    briany
    Registered Users Posts: 13,988 ✭✭✭✭briany


    Eric Cartman wrote: »
    Meth use really screws up the lungs https://www.webmd.com/connect-to-care/addiction-treatment-recovery/methamphetamine/meth-use-and-lung-health

    It might be easy enough to sway the jury that a normal person would still have been able to breath and chauvin wouldnt have killed them but in georges case his lungs were trashed by drugs and chauvin was just the final nail in a coffin that was already basically sealed

    If Chauvin was the final nail, he's still responsible for Floyd's death given where and when it happened.


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    #661
    Eric Cartman
    Registered Users Posts: 26,280 ✭✭✭✭Eric Cartman


    briany wrote: »
    If Chauvin was the final nail, he's still responsible for Floyd's death given where and when it happened.

    Absolutely, its possible he is , but in a low end manslaughter kind of way , not a calculated murder kind of way that many want him to be convicted of


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