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Derek Chauvin murder trial (George Floyd)
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All_in_Flynn wrote: »Can you explain why he didn't take his knee off his neck after Floyd lost consciousness?
I've yet to see a single valid or even semi reasonable theory as to why he kept his knee on his neck even after Floyd clearly was no longer responsive.
Nope, as I wasn't there, but I've plenty of personal examples of people who pretend to pass out. But they're anecdotal so not expecting anyone to believe it. But it does happen, and sometimes at a huge cost while they continue to pretend and all types of medical people are called. They usually make a sudden recovery once transported to a hospital and they find a chance to leg it.ohnonotgmail wrote: »I've yet to see a valid reason as to why he kept his knee on his neck after floyd was handcuffed on the ground.
The neck I can't comment on, but it's not unusual to keep someone contained even while handcuffed. Being handcuffed does not immediately make someone a non-threat, they can still bite, kick, headbutt, spit, knee, push, elbow, run...standardg60 wrote: »None of that applies here given the simple fact he was hand-cuffed.
See above. Being handcuffed does not immediately make someone a non-threat.
These are all general examples, not specific to Floyd. I don't know enough about that case to make a comment, I'm only commenting on things which people seem to believe without having actual experience of it, as I've had 9 years experience of it (here in Ireland, so not as bad as it can be in the USofA).0 -
Potential-Monke wrote: »Nope, as I wasn't there, but I've plenty of personal examples of people who pretend to pass out. But they're anecdotal so not expecting anyone to believe it. But it does happen, and sometimes at a huge cost while they continue to pretend and all types of medical people are called. They usually make a sudden recovery once transported to a hospital and they find a chance to leg it.
That's not an excuse. Chauvin had a duty of care to Floyd. He didn't check to see if he was ok. This even after another officer suggested to him that they should turn Floyd as it looked like he'd passed out.
Honestly, this rationale of maybe he thought he was faking it/was distracted doesn't stand up to any scrutiny.0 -
Potential-Monke wrote: »
The neck I can't comment on, but it's not unusual to keep someone contained even while handcuffed. Being handcuffed does not immediately make someone a non-threat, they can still bite, kick, headbutt, spit, knee, push, elbow, run...
if you cant control a man who is handcuffed face down on the ground without kneeling on their neck then you have no business being a police officer. especially when you have 3 other officers present.0 -
Potential-Monke wrote: »Nope, as I wasn't there, but I've plenty of personal examples of people who pretend to pass out. But they're anecdotal so not expecting anyone to believe it. But it does happen, and sometimes at a huge cost while they continue to pretend and all types of medical people are called. They usually make a sudden recovery once transported to a hospital and they find a chance to leg it.
The neck I can't comment on, but it's not unusual to keep someone contained even while handcuffed. Being handcuffed does not immediately make someone a non-threat, they can still bite, kick, headbutt, spit, knee, push, elbow, run...
See above. Being handcuffed does not immediately make someone a non-threat.
These are all general examples, not specific to Floyd. I don't know enough about that case to make a comment, I'm only commenting on things which people seem to believe without having actual experience of it, as I've had 9 years experience of it (here in Ireland, so not as bad as it can be in the USofA).
If you don't know enough about the Floyd case to make any comments about it, then why are you making comments in the Floyd case thread?0 -
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how is video of a shootout relevant to a case that didn't involve firearms?0 -
ohnonotgmail wrote: »how is video of a shootout relevant to a case that didn't involve firearms?
It illustrates very clearly how quickly things can escalate when dealing with intoxicated suspects.0 -
ohnonotgmail wrote: »if you cant control a man who is handcuffed face down on the ground without kneeling on their neck then you have no business being a police officer. especially when you have 3 other officers present.
Have you much experience in doing this/been in a similar situation?0 -
penny piper wrote: »Have you much experience in doing this/been in a similar situation?
how much experience do you have?0 -
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ohnonotgmail wrote: »how much experience do you have?
What do you mean? You made a post I asked you the question.0 -
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It illustrates very clearly how quickly things can escalate when dealing with intoxicated suspects.
Lol the first sentence of the reporter illustrates the bias that CBS took to begin with in showing a clearly edited video. Do you always rely on American media for your obviously prejudiced views?
Maybe you should move there, if you're not already.0 -
All_in_Flynn wrote: »That's not an excuse. Chauvin had a duty of care to Floyd. He didn't check to see if he was ok. This even after another officer suggested to him that they should turn Floyd as it looked like he'd passed out.
Honestly, this rationale of maybe he thought he was faking it/was distracted doesn't stand up to any scrutiny.
I'm not making the point to defend Chauvin, I'm making my experience of dealing with handcuffed prisoners known, because people who haven't been a cop seem to think that just because someone is handcuffed, they're not a threat.ohnonotgmail wrote: »if you cant control a man who is handcuffed face down on the ground without kneeling on their neck then you have no business being a police officer. especially when you have 3 other officers present.
You'd be surprised, very surprised. Took 7 of us one night to hold down 1 person. And 3 of those were big hefty men. But again, without experience of it, you really don't know what it's like to arrest, handcuff, detain and deal with aggressive prisoners.standardg60 wrote: »If you don't know enough about the Floyd case to make any comments about it, then why are you making comments in the Floyd case thread?
I'm giving my personal experience of what it's like to deal with people, to clarify the air that just because someone is handcuffed doesn't mean they're no longer a threat, something the lieutenant incorrectly claimed in his testimony. Because everyone else seems to know how to do this, without having actually done it. By the book and real life rarely match up.ohnonotgmail wrote: »but nothing like that happened in the case under discussion so why is it relevant?
To show how quickly something can change. It may not be directly relevant to this case, but it's certainly relevant to show how quickly a situation can change. Who knows what could have happened if Floyd was picked up. He has a history of drug related and charges and held a gun to a womans abdomen while robbing her house. He's not an angel as people make him out to be. If he's capable of holding a gun to someone, what else is he capable of?
Again, none of this is to excuse what happened, nor am I defending Chauvin. I'm just giving my own personal experience of dealing with criminals and what they will do/say to avoid getting arrested. If you want to believe me, I let a handcuffed person up from the ground in the early part of my career for similar comments that he was making. As soon as he was up, he headbutt me and tried to run.
I don't agree with the knee on the neck, but I don't agree with people making broad claims with no experience to back it up. People think police work is black and white, and that officers are fully trained for all potential scenarios, whereas it couldn't be further from the truth. They're trained to deal with situations which vary on a case by case basis. I only want to give my own experience of what I encountered, but in no way am I trying to use any of it as an excuse for any actions in this case.0 -
Potential-Monke wrote: »I'm not making the point to defend Chauvin, I'm making my experience of dealing with handcuffed prisoners known, because people who haven't been a cop seem to think that just because someone is handcuffed, they're not a threat.
You'd be surprised, very surprised. Took 7 of us one night to hold down 1 person. And 3 of those were big hefty men. But again, without experience of it, you really don't know what it's like to arrest, handcuff, detain and deal with aggressive prisoners.
I'm giving my personal experience of what it's like to deal with people, to clarify the air that just because someone is handcuffed doesn't mean they're no longer a threat, someone the lieutenant incorrectly claimed in his testimony. Because everyone else seems to know how to do this, without having actually done it. By the book and real life rarely match up.
To show how quickly something can change. It may not be directly relevant to this case, but it's certainly relevant to show how quickly a situation can change. Who knows what could have happened if Floyd was picked up. He has a history of drug related and charges and held a gun to a womans abdomen while robbing her house. He's not an angel as people make him out to be. If he's capable of holding a gun to someone, what else is he capable of?
Again, none of this is to excuse what happened, nor am I defending Chauvin. I'm just giving my own personal experience of dealing with criminals and what they will do/say to avoid getting arrested. If you want to believe me, I let a handcuffed person up from the ground in the early part of my career for similar comments that he was making. As soon as he was up, he headbutt me and tried to run.
I don't agree with the knee on the neck, but I don't agree with people making broad claims with no experience to back it up. People think police work is black and white, and that officers are fully trained for all potential scenarios, whereas it couldn't be further from the truth. They're trained to deal with situations which vary on a case by case basis. I only want to give my own experience of what I encountered, but in no way am I trying to use any of it as an excuse for any actions in this case.
except in this case we do know what he was trained to do and it wasn't to keep their knee on a suspects neck after they were handcuffed on the ground.0 -
penny piper wrote: »What do you mean? You made a post I asked you the question.
Honestly, if you want to indulge in semantics rather than rationally debate then all you do is expose yourself as having a pre-determined reason for posting in the first place.
I answered a question you posed earlier in the thread which you have conveniently ignored.0 -
Potential-Monke wrote: »I'm not making the point to defend Chauvin, I'm making my experience of dealing with handcuffed prisoners known, because people who haven't been a cop seem to think that just because someone is handcuffed, they're not a threat.
You'd be surprised, very surprised. Took 7 of us one night to hold down 1 person. And 3 of those were big hefty men. But again, without experience of it, you really don't know what it's like to arrest, handcuff, detain and deal with aggressive prisoners.
I'm giving my personal experience of what it's like to deal with people, to clarify the air that just because someone is handcuffed doesn't mean they're no longer a threat, something the lieutenant incorrectly claimed in his testimony. Because everyone else seems to know how to do this, without having actually done it. By the book and real life rarely match up.
To show how quickly something can change. It may not be directly relevant to this case, but it's certainly relevant to show how quickly a situation can change. Who knows what could have happened if Floyd was picked up. He has a history of drug related and charges and held a gun to a womans abdomen while robbing her house. He's not an angel as people make him out to be. If he's capable of holding a gun to someone, what else is he capable of?
Again, none of this is to excuse what happened, nor am I defending Chauvin. I'm just giving my own personal experience of dealing with criminals and what they will do/say to avoid getting arrested. If you want to believe me, I let a handcuffed person up from the ground in the early part of my career for similar comments that he was making. As soon as he was up, he headbutt me and tried to run.
I don't agree with the knee on the neck, but I don't agree with people making broad claims with no experience to back it up. People think police work is black and white, and that officers are fully trained for all potential scenarios, whereas it couldn't be further from the truth. They're trained to deal with situations which vary on a case by case basis. I only want to give my own experience of what I encountered, but in no way am I trying to use any of it as an excuse for any actions in this case.
Lol again, you have just claimed to not know enough about the case to make a comment but you seem to have an in-depth knowledge of Floyd's history?
Given that revelation i have absolutely no reason to accept the bona fides of the rest of your testimony0 -
Potential-monke..
Appreciate your input and sharing the experiences you've gone through..
Have you ever had someone in your custody that went limp/no pulse under you or any of your colleagues..
For me in this situation, things seem to be playing out in a normal way.. guy high on drugs, he's showing resistance, he is met with force, gets pulled from the car put face down.. there comes a point where he's out and then dead.. is this the time to get off him or do you stay in place with the same positions thinking he's pretending to pass out.
Also out of interest, are you legally bound to provide potential life saving measures to a person in your custody?0 -
Potential-Monke wrote: »
You'd be surprised, very surprised. Took 7 of us one night to hold down 1 person. And 3 of those were big hefty men. But again, without experience of it, you really don't know what it's like to arrest, handcuff, detain and deal with aggressive prisoners.
So, let's take the scenario you have described, here. You've laid out the bit about restraining him, but what's the finish to it? At what point do you take the arrested person from the scene down to the station? Can you wait until they've calmed down and go willingly into the back of the police car, or is that always too risky? Do you radio another police unit for backup to help wrestle him away?
Chauvin and the other officers did not appear to have an exit strategy to this particular encounter. Floyd had been resisting, but he was down on the ground, had stopped moving and even become unconscious, and I don't think anyone will argue the point that an unconscious man provides any particular further threat or resistance. And yet Chauvin persisted with the knee. This is disturbing. He seemed content to hold that knee there for an indeterminate amount of time.0 -
So, let's take the scenario you have described, here. You've laid out the bit about restraining him, but what's the finish to it? At what point do you take the arrested person from the scene down to the station? Can you wait until they've calmed down and go willingly into the back of the police car, or is that always too risky? Do you radio another police unit for backup to help wrestle him away?
Chauvin and the other officers did not appear to have an exit strategy to this particular encounter. Floyd had been resisting, but he was down on the ground, had stopped moving and even become unconscious, and I don't think anyone will argue the point that an unconscious man provides any particular further threat or resistance. And yet Chauvin persisted with the knee. This is disturbing. He seemed content to hold that knee there for an indeterminate amount of time.
All gone quiet, i reckon they are re-evaluating their plan of attack, having under-estimated our intelligence.0 -
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standardg60 wrote: »Lol again, you have just claimed to not know enough about the case to make a comment but you seem to have an in-depth knowledge of Floyd's history?
Given that revelation i have absolutely no reason to accept the bona fides of the rest of your testimony
I never claimed to have in depth knowledge, a quick Google showed me that. Does his criminal record not have a part to play in all this?
And you're completely free to believe and not believe what you want. Just giving my experience, you're the one twisting words to suit your agenda (saying I appear to have in depth knowledge when it's nothing of the sort).MeMen2_MoRi_ wrote: »Potential-monke..
Appreciate your input and sharing the experiences you've gone through..
Have you ever had someone in your custody that went limp/no pulse under you or any of your colleagues..
For me in this situation, things seem to be playing out in a normal way.. guy high on drugs, he's showing resistance, he is met with force, gets pulled from the car put face down.. there comes a point where he's out and then dead.. is this the time to get off him or do you stay in place with the same positions thinking he's pretending to pass out.
Also out of interest, are you legally bound to provide potential life saving measures to a person in your custody?
Yup, people have genuinely gone limp/unconscious on me about 3 times in 9 years. Two of those were due to a heroin overdose, the third one they had an epileptic fit. First two required an ambulance, third required someone first aid trained and then an ambulance.
Regarding when they go limp do you get off them, usually you would try to make sure they're not faking and then administer help as needed. Obviously didn't happen in this case, but American cops have far more to be worrying about than Irish cops, so I can't say at what point they would/should have. I do know from other shooting specific videos, most suspects who are shot are approached, handcuffed and then first aid is administered. Safety of yourself and everyone else appears to be first and foremost over there, then the suspect gets looking after.
And yes, legally obliged to protect everyone, arrested criminals included and often so more important because of legislation, once arrested the person is in your custody until returned to the station, then the member in charge takes over (in most places in Ireland).So, let's take the scenario you have described, here. You've laid out the bit about restraining him, but what's the finish to it? At what point do you take the arrested person from the scene down to the station? Can you wait until they've calmed down and go willingly into the back of the police car, or is that always too risky? Do you radio another police unit for backup to help wrestle him away?
Chauvin and the other officers did not appear to have an exit strategy to this particular encounter. Floyd had been resisting, but he was down on the ground, had stopped moving and even become unconscious, and I don't think anyone will argue the point that an unconscious man provides any particular further threat or resistance. And yet Chauvin persisted with the knee. This is disturbing. He seemed content to hold that knee there for an indeterminate amount of time.
Most of the time, yes, wait until they've calmed down a bit, because unlike the USA, Gardai have standard i30's with no protection for the driver from the back. If they're bad enough, the paddy wagon will be called, and if they don't willingly go in, they're forced in (hold the legs, get them in, horse the rest of the body after it, close and lock door before they can get their feet back out. If it's bad enough, yes, always radio more people. Aside from the prisoner, you have their mates/buddies/other scum who like to interfere also.
This case is an extreme example of when things go bad. I agree there was no need for the knee, even if it was just on his shoulder, it's not necessary imo. But again, I was trained as a Garda, not an American cop, so I can't say how much difference there is. In Ireland, we try to put people into the recovery position if they're too hostile to keep on their feet, but even then you have absolute scum with life changing diseases spitting on you and trying to bite you, so it's not always possible. In those situations, you'd try to keep them in the recovery position but hold their face/head down, which from the outside looks like unnecessary pressure being applied to their head/neck, but it's actually for protection of everyone.
Luckily, I've never been in a situation where my force has caused damage or anything like it. I was always wary, because I learned very early on that the law is on the criminals side, and I wasn't gonna put my life/job/freedom on the line. Left it years ago and never looked back, wouldn't do it again if you paid me millions per year.standardg60 wrote: »All gone quiet, i reckon they are re-evaluating their plan of attack, having under-estimated our intelligence.
Showing your agenda now, not everyone is sitting here, waiting for your witty replies to retort.0 -
Potential-Monke wrote: »I never claimed to have in depth knowledge, a quick Google showed me that. Does his criminal record not have a part to play in all this?
And you're completely free to believe and not believe what you want. Just giving my experience, you're the one twisting words to suit your agenda (saying I appear to have in depth knowledge when it's nothing of the sort).
Yup, people have genuinely gone limp/unconscious on me about 3 times in 9 years. Two of those were due to a heroin overdose, the third one they had an epileptic fit. First two required an ambulance, third required someone first aid trained and then an ambulance.
Regarding when they go limp do you get off them, usually you would try to make sure they're not faking and then administer help as needed. Obviously didn't happen in this case, but American cops have far more to be worrying about than Irish cops, so I can't say at what point they would/should have. I do know from other shooting specific videos, most suspects who are shot are approached, handcuffed and then first aid is administered. Safety of yourself and everyone else appears to be first and foremost over there, then the suspect gets looking after.
And yes, legally obliged to protect everyone, arrested criminals included and often so more important because of legislation, once arrested the person is in your custody until returned to the station, then the member in charge takes over (in most places in Ireland).
Most of the time, yes, wait until they've calmed down a bit, because unlike the USA, Gardai have standard i30's with no protection for the driver from the back. If they're bad enough, the paddy wagon will be called, and if they don't willingly go in, they're forced in (hold the legs, get them in, horse the rest of the body after it, close and lock door before they can get their feet back out. If it's bad enough, yes, always radio more people. Aside from the prisoner, you have their mates/buddies/other scum who like to interfere also.
This case is an extreme example of when things go bad. I agree there was no need for the knee, even if it was just on his shoulder, it's not necessary imo. But again, I was trained as a Garda, not an American cop, so I can't say how much difference there is. In Ireland, we try to put people into the recovery position if they're too hostile to keep on their feet, but even then you have absolute scum with life changing diseases spitting on you and trying to bite you, so it's not always possible. In those situations, you'd try to keep them in the recovery position but hold their face/head down, which from the outside looks like unnecessary pressure being applied to their head/neck, but it's actually for protection of everyone.
Luckily, I've never been in a situation where my force has caused damage or anything like it. I was always wary, because I learned very early on that the law is on the criminals side, and I wasn't gonna put my life/job/freedom on the line. Left it years ago and never looked back, wouldn't do it again if you paid me millions per year.
Showing your agenda now, not everyone is sitting here, waiting for your witty replies to retort.
A quick Google led you to only Floyd's allegedly violent past then? You must have skipped a lot to get there.
Interesting that you haven't been a guard in years too.
Irish 'cops' is a new one on me too but the most telling thing for me is your use of USofA. I have never heard any one here use that term.0 -
standardg60 wrote: »A quick Google led you to only Floyd's allegedly violent past then? You must have skipped a lot to get there.
Interesting that you haven't been a guard in years too.
Irish 'cops' is a new one on me too but the most telling thing for me is your use of USofA. I have never heard any one here use that term.
No, a quick Google of "George Floyds arrest history" brought me, unsurprisingly, to his arrest history... Is it not relevant?
And what's interesting about not being a Guard in a few years? Are you one? Do you have first hand experience of dealing with violent, resisting criminals?
And just because you don't use the word cops, doesn't mean other people don't. Are they not cops in Ireland? Just because it's not a widely used term, doesn't make it incorrect. And I say USofA and 'Merica because I hold that country in a pretty low regard. They're ironic uses. But you probably wouldn't get that just from reading a few lines from a random poster on t'internet. And your agenda (I'm right, everyone else is wrong, wah, wah, wah).
cop1
/kɒp/
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Police · Informal
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INFORMAL
noun
1.
a police officer.
Garda
/ˈɡɑːdə/
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noun
the state police force of the Republic of Ireland.
"her husband was a detective in the Garda"
Anyway, you don't have to worry your little head anymore, I'm done in this thread. Couldn't be ar$ed. Better things to be doing.0 -
His arrest history is as relevant as the history of both Chauvin and his partner in the prosecution of the case, both of whom you've conveniently chosen to 'not Google'.
Glad you've at least decided (or your prompters), that you're way in over your head here.0 -
standardg60 wrote: »His arrest history is as relevant as the history of both Chauvin and his partner in the prosecution of the case, both of whom you've conveniently chosen to 'not Google'.
Glad you've at least decided (or your prompters), that you're way in over your head here.
Ok, last one because I'm useless at not biting. Chauvin and his partner were not the ones being arrested, so why would I google theirs to make a point about dealing with arresting resisting criminals?
"(or your prompters)" - What the actual fuk are you talking about? You're coming across as a bit unhinged if I'm being honest. You're making up situations to suit your own personal (and unknown) agenda. Prompters? I genuinely have no idea where you're going with this.
Lay off the internet for a bit, it doesn't appear to be doing you any good. And I'm far from in over my head, I just think that "debating" a point with someone who has an obvious agenda and doesn't want to listen to anything that doesn't suit it, is pointless.0 -
Potential-Monke wrote: »Yup, people have genuinely gone limp/unconscious on me about 3 times in 9 years. Two of those were due to a heroin overdose, the third one they had an epileptic fit. First two required an ambulance, third required someone first aid trained and then an ambulance.
Regarding when they go limp do you get off them, usually you would try to make sure they're not faking and then administer help as needed. Obviously didn't happen in this case, but American cops have far more to be worrying about than Irish cops, so I can't say at what point they would/should have. I do know from other shooting specific videos, most suspects who are shot are approached, handcuffed and then first aid is administered. Safety of yourself and everyone else appears to be first and foremost over there, then the suspect gets looking after.
And yes, legally obliged to protect everyone, arrested criminals included and often so more important because of legislation, once arrested the person is in your custody until returned to the station, then the member in charge takes over (in most places in Ireland).
I agree officer safety is paramount no qualms about this.
When I watched the videos in simples terms the pendulum of being in the right is with the cops, as the encounter continues to unfold it swings in the wrong direction for the cops, imo they ended up being in complete dereliction of their duty of care to the person in their custody. In the sense they stayed on top of a dead man.0 -
Potential-Monke wrote: »Ok, last one because I'm useless at not biting. Chauvin and his partner were not the ones being arrested, so why would I google theirs to make a point about dealing with arresting resisting criminals?
"(or your prompters)" - What the actual fuk are you talking about? You're coming across as a bit unhinged if I'm being honest. You're making up situations to suit your own personal (and unknown) agenda. Prompters? I genuinely have no idea where you're going with this.
Lay off the internet for a bit, it doesn't appear to be doing you any good. And I'm far from in over my head, I just think that "debating" a point with someone who has an obvious agenda and doesn't want to listen to anything that doesn't suit it, is pointless.
You have done nothing but contradict yourself since you started posting. You claimed to have no knowledge of the case but that gradually unwinded due to your own posts. I am perfectly willing to debate the case in question subject to the evidence available but wading in with 'personal experiences' which are completely irrelevant to the case in question and following that up with biased references deserve the response that i gave you.0 -
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MeMen2_MoRi_ wrote: »
I don't understand how he's come to that conclusion. 1st degree murder requires premeditation, and not premeditation in the sense of deciding you're going to kill someone immediately before, which would be 2nd degree, but deliberation and planning.0 -
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https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9446675/Cop-car-George-Floyd-pulled-searched-twice-Drugs-eight-months-search.html
Not looking good for the prosecution.
Drugs with GF DNA found in the police car he was in briefly.0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_BZkxLQ6zlk
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