Derek Chauvin murder trial (George Floyd)

cheezums

this weight on the back argument is stupid. the alleged cause of death is the knee on the neck, not the back.

lawrencesummers

This guy Fowler would make an exceptional Bond Villain.

cheezums

Prosecution destroying this defense witness pretty comprehensively.

bazermc

cheezums wrote: »

Prosecution destroying this defense witness pretty comprehensively.

Yep and just like last night they are taking longer then Nelson took for the defense evidence in chief

bazermc

Be great if the prosecution lawyer when he has finished the questioning pathologists says, “I’m done with this guy”

MeMen2_MoRi_

bazermc wrote: »

Be great if the prosecution lawyer when he has finished the questioning pathologists says, “I’m done with this guy”

Think from when prosecution pulled the affidavit, fowler has been floundering in deep water.

All_in_Flynn

Why oh why did the defence think it was a good idea to bring up carbon monoxide poisoning? It took the prosecution about 30 seconds to get the witness to admit there was zero evidence of carbon monoxide poisoning and that he has absolutely no proof that the car was even on.

Furthermore the prosecution got the witness to state that as medical professional, it was negligent to not give Floyd immediate medical treatment.

Overheal

All_in_Flynn wrote: »

Why oh why did the defence think it was a good idea to bring up carbon monoxide poisoning? It took the prosecution about 30 seconds to get the witness to admit there was zero evidence of carbon monoxide poisoning and that he has absolutely no proof that the car was even on.

Furthermore the prosecution got the witness to state that as medical professional, it was negligent to not give Floyd immediate medical treatment.

As though carbon monoxide poisoning is ever a problem unless you're snowed in or you stuff your tailpipe. What a ridiculous thing to try.

cheezums

The chewing gum bit was pretty embarrassing too. How the hell did nelson not notice that in the shop cctv?

penny piper

cheezums wrote: »

The chewing gum bit was pretty embarrassing too. How the hell did nelson not notice that in the shop cctv?

just because he had chewing gum in his mouth in the shop, I was suprised the forensic pathologist didn't say it didn't mean it was the same object he saw in the picture he was shown.....he could have spat the chewing gum out...

Mellor

Gwen Cooper wrote: »

That evening he had a conference call with Hennepin County Attorney to discuss the toxicology results. On this call Baker said "Fentanyl 11, that’s pretty high. This level of fentanyl can cause pulmonary edema. Mr. Floyd’s lungs were 2-3x their normal weight at autopsy. That is fatal level of fentanyl under normal circumstances."

You quote and the document linked are slightly different. In the document, Dr Baker's comment was only "that's pretty high". The comments about pulmonary edema are outside of the quotes. Which means it was written by the person who wrote the report (the state's attorney) not Dr Baker.

Off the cuff comments based on info over a call are different compared with when you have the report and look up the references ranges.
11 without a unit is meaningless. From the report it's 11ng/ml.

The estimated lethal dose of fentanyl in humans is 2 mg. The recommended serum concentration for analgesia is 1–2 ng/ml and for anaesthesia it is 10–20 ng/ml. Blood concentrations of approximately 7 ng/ml or greater have been associated with fatalities where poly-substance use was involved.

Source

So that amount would be low end of an anaesthesia .

Quantum Erasure

Blood concentrations of approximately 7 ng/ml or greater have been associated with fatalities where poly-substance use was involved....

Mellor

Quantum Erasure wrote: »

Blood concentrations of approximately 7 ng/ml or greater have been associated with fatalities where poly-substance use was involved....

Yes. Substances like morphine, heroine, oxycodone, etc. (Or speedballing like John Belushi).
A non-lethal dose of two opiates together could easily become lethal in combination. That's expected surely.

A major cause of fentanyl overdose is apparently heroin that's cut with fentanyl and filler. People thinks its normal heroin but its actually overdosed.


I don't think there was any other opiates in Floys system (could be wrong). Only very low levels* of meth.

*According to the report liked above.

Quantum Erasure

There was metabolites of fentanyl in his blood aswell, copied from a post in the BLM thread

1. Fentanyl 11ng/mL
2 . Norfentanyl 5.6 ng/mL
...

This fentanyl concentration, including its norfentanyl metabolite at its molecular weight, was 20.6 ng/mL

That's pretty high, ...

MeMen2_MoRi_

Quantum Erasure wrote: »

Blood concentrations of approximately 7 ng/ml or greater have been associated with fatalities where poly-substance use was involved....

Heard testimony that as low 3 has been involved in fatalities. The process to a fatality from an overdose isn't seen here.

Biker79

MeMen2_MoRi_ wrote: »

Heard testimony that as low 3 has been involved in fatalities. The process to a fatality from an overdose isn't seen here.

He was foaming at the mouth having exited his drug dealers car. Most likely pursuing a strategy of overdosing to sabotage an arrest, as he had done the previous year.

Surely that will contribute to reasonable doubt?

Biker79

Biker79 wrote: »

He was foaming at the mouth having exited his drug dealers car. Most likely pursuing a strategy of overdosing to sabotage an arrest, as he had done the previous year.

Surely that will contribute to reasonable doubt?

Except there's no proof an overdose killed him... The fact the defence are doing such a shoddy job indicates they don't have a leg to stand on tbh.

penny piper

Deleted User wrote: »

Except there's no proof an overdose killed him... The fact the defence are doing such a shoddy job indicates they don't have a leg to stand on tbh.

There's really no proof of anything is there?????listen to all the experts...as the forensic pathologist said ...he would have used the term "undetermined" as the reason for death

penny piper

Biker79 wrote: »

He was foaming at the mouth having exited his drug dealers car. Most likely pursuing a strategy of overdosing to sabotage an arrest, as he had done the previous year.

Surely that will contribute to reasonable doubt?

Oh it's reasonable doubt...but chauvan won't get away that easily....look what will happen if he isn't charged....

Mellor

Quantum Erasure wrote: »

There was metabolites of fentanyl in his blood aswell, copied from a post in the BLM thread

1. Fentanyl 11ng/mL
2 . Norfentanyl 5.6 ng/mL
...

This fentanyl concentration, including its norfentanyl metabolite at its molecular weight, was 20.6 ng/mL

That's pretty high, ...

Well the metabolite is expected as his liver would have been breaking down Fentanyl. I don't know the chemistry, so can't comment on the conversion ratio of one to the other.
But I know from various high profile sports doin cases, that a metabolite can hang around for weeks or longer. Doesn't necessarily mean it took all of that in gone go. would depend on the half life.

MeMen2_MoRi_

penny piper wrote: »

There's really no proof of anything is there?????listen to all the experts...as the forensic pathologist said ...he would have used the term "undetermined" as the reason for death

He would of used that if say we hypothetically take chauvin and the 3 cops out of the situation..

MeMen2_MoRi_

penny piper wrote: »

Oh it's reasonable doubt...but chauvan won't get away that easily....look what will happen if he isn't charged....

He was charged, that's why he's in a court standing trial on charges of murder and manslaughter. Now's the time so see if he's guilty or not by his peers.

penny piper

penny piper wrote: »

There's really no proof of anything is there?????listen to all the experts...as the forensic pathologist said ...he would have used the term "undetermined" as the reason for death

The fact they've failed to offer a credible possiblity of an overdose that would indicate that it's not gonna figure in reasonable doubt.

penny piper

MeMen2_MoRi_ wrote: »

He would of used that if say we hypothetically take chauvin and the 3 cops out of the situation..

incorrect........

It should have been undetermined....adding all the experts opinions up....

Hence reasonable doubt.....


Watch how the prosecution will bring back Tobin to testify
....I'd say Dr.Fowler was a far better witness yesterday...clear/ and the prosecution had a very hard time questioning him...You only had to look at Blackwell's face, he was desperate clutching at straws trying to catch fowler out.

Tobin mumbles on like in lecture room...may engage people for a while but do they really know what he's talking about???

Fowler is a different type of character.... I found him extremely interesting/clear /no nonsense ..

MeMen2_MoRi_

penny piper wrote: »

incorrect........

It should have been undetermined....adding all the experts opinions up....

Hence reasonable doubt.....


Watch how the prosecution will bring back Tobin to testify
....I'd say Dr.Fowler was a far better witness yesterday...clear/ and the prosecution had a very hard time questioning him...You only had to look at Blackwell's face, he was desperate clutching at straws trying to catch fowler out.

Tobin mumbles on like in lecture room...may engage people for a while but do they really know what he's talking about???

Fowler is a different type of character.... I found him extremely interesting/clear /no nonsense ..

This post is some distortion of the actual truth.

Did you understand what Dr Tobin was talking about? Have you understood all the experts testimonies..

All_in_Flynn

penny piper wrote: »

incorrect........

It should have been undetermined....adding all the experts opinions up....

Hence reasonable doubt.....


Watch how the prosecution will bring back Tobin to testify
....I'd say Dr.Fowler was a far better witness yesterday...clear/ and the prosecution had a very hard time questioning him...You only had to look at Blackwell's face, he was desperate clutching at straws trying to catch fowler out.

Tobin mumbles on like in lecture room...may engage people for a while but do they really know what he's talking about???

Fowler is a different type of character.... I found him extremely interesting/clear /no nonsense ..

The prosecution had a hard time questioning Dr. Fowler? It took them no time at all to get him to admit that there was zero proof of carbon monoxide poisoning and that he had no clue the car was even on. The prosecution even got him to admit that it was negligent not to give Floyd immediate medical attention.

I will grant you that he has been the defences strongest witness but to be honest, I think that about sums up the defences case here. It's just not very strong to my eye. I think there are only 1 or 2 more witnesses to call from the defence before closing arguments so it's a big day for the defence.

drkpower

cheezums wrote: »

this weight on the back argument is stupid. the alleged cause of death is the knee on the neck, not the back.

Not quite.

Tobin’s thesis was that the restrictions on his ability to breathe was caused by both pressure on neck/upper back (left knee) and back (right knee), and that caused the hypoxia. He was an extremely credible witness to my ear and the defence made little or no inroads.

penny piper

All_in_Flynn wrote: »

The prosecution had a hard time questioning Dr. Fowler? It took them no time at all to get him to admit that there was zero proof of carbon monoxide poisoning and that he had no clue the car was even on. The prosecution even got him to admit that it was negligent not to give Floyd immediate medical attention.

I will grant you that he has been the defences strongest witness but to be honest, I think that about sums up the defences case here. It's just not very strong to my eye. I think there are only 1 or 2 more witnesses to call from the defence before closing arguments so it's a big day for the defence.

How long did the prosecution take to question dr.fowler???? if all they got out of him after all that time was regards his mention of carbon monoxide it wasn't much was it??? he gave several examples/had the use of 13 experts backing him didn't he?

Yes, I agree the defense could have been alot better ...nelson could have objected alot more but the state had everything at it's disposal ie amount of lawyers/ability to get more witnesses .......

Idk who the defense will use as witnesses maybe another medical expert? maybe chauvan? ...

Gwen Cooper

Mellor wrote: »

You quote and the document linked are slightly different. In the document, Dr Baker's comment was only "that's pretty high". The comments about pulmonary edema are outside of the quotes. Which means it was written by the person who wrote the report (the state's attorney) not Dr Baker.

My bad, I missed that bit when transcribing. Saying "that's pretty high" still doesn't mean that he said that it killed him though.

Mellor wrote: »

Off the cuff comments based on info over a call are different compared with when you have the report and look up the references ranges.
11 without a unit is meaningless. From the report it's 11ng/ml.

Source

So that amount would be low end of an anaesthesia .

I don't think that them not mentioning the units and just saying 11 makes any difference here. They all had the toxicology report available and obviously knew what they're talking about. I'd compare it to my presentations at work when I have people sitting around the table and each one of them has the same document available and I'm talking them through it page by page, I'd say "Engagement rate this month was 17", and they'll know that I'm talking about 17%, because they are reading it on the paper in front of them. So I don't really understand why you'd bring it up. If I'm missing anything, please let me know.

MeMen2_MoRi_

On fowler being clear and no nonsense..

I give fair dues for the attempt of casting carbon monoxide as potential factor that was over looked, yet he clearly didn't believe it, why? Because if you believe something, you'd do research like actual psychical research instead of sitting at a computer pulling up things that take seconds to find. Like the Ford explorer interceptor, it's a hybrid which I'm guessing when In park shuts off the engine after a time of sitting idle..

That's a lot of nonsense to which he was paid handsomely for to talk about.