Derek Chauvin murder trial (George Floyd)

Overheal

Overheal wrote: »

You’ve already been showed evidence that it played some degree of factor. It seems misplaced to pick this hill to die upon thusly.

I have seen zero evidence

Overheal

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I have seen zero evidence

Then you are on some other planet. I will leave you there.

Faugheen

[Deleted User] wrote: »

You keep saying blatant lies. Where did I say that the "n word" needs to be used?

I've stated that racism is real and a problem.

There is no proof or indication that anything about this incident was racist.

You are simply lying and laughably trying to frame me as a racist or a racist sympathiser

Show me where I said there was a racial element to this incident? You keep throwing that line out when I have said I am talking about this thread. Distraction.

“You are simply lying” - dismiss

That’s two of the four d’s. I could go back through your posts and find the other two but I won’t.

This really is a weird hill to die on. There are racists on boards. That’s a fact. They are showing those patterns of behaviour in this thread. That is a fact. Stop moving the goalposts and face the fact that you picked a fight with me over something I never said.

Overheal

Overheal wrote: »

Then you are on some other planet. I will leave you there.

I may have missed the evidence you say I was shown that indicated that this was a racist incident.

I'm more than happy to reconsider if you could point it out.

Sandor Clegane

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

What if black people say it is?

Come on, you can't claim every arrest of a black person is racist, Black or white the cops were well within their rights to stop and arrest Floyd, the problem is how it was handled and their actions during the arrest...

By the way if anyone has any proof that this incident was race related id like to see it?

PokeHerKing

Deleted User wrote: »

How?

How is anything about this racially charged?

Because America has an extremely recent history with white supremacy and black slavery. I mean if you can't take that context and apply it to these events than you're either being deliberately obtuse or you're simply simple. You can choose.

Overheal

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I may have missed the evidence you say I was shown that indicated that this was a racist incident.

I'm more than happy to reconsider if you could point it out.

No, you are not. I am not interested in investing personal time into trying to hold a reasonable discussion with someone being wholly unreasonable and soapboxing a negative without proving said negative. You claimed there was zero evidence that race was elemental here, you were refuted (with evidence) and you’ve since pivoted off to “yeah well Uhm zero evidence it’s a racist incident then so there” having abandoned the claim that there is “zero proof or evidence that raced played an element”

So I’m done. You want to play a very queer game of ball and I’m not partaking anymore.

ILoveYourVibes

The thing is I hear people say this police murder was not about race. But then they must believe police are murdering all Americans. And I don't hear them protesting about it.

I mean the ones getting out to protest about police shooting a latino little boy (Adam Toledo) are BLM supporters.

I would not be surprised if THIS is the movement to eventually help ALL Americans have better police.

If you don't think it's about race. Then you must believe all americans are in danger from the police and I would be VERY worried about that.

I mean then it could be me or you next.

Faugheen

Faugheen wrote: »

Show me where I said there was a racial element to this incident? You keep throwing that line out when I have said I am talking about this thread. Distraction.

“You are simply lying” - dismiss

That’s two of the four d’s. I could go back through your posts and find the other two but I won’t.

This really is a weird hill to die on. There are racists on boards. That’s a fact. They are showing those patterns of behaviour in this thread. That is a fact. Stop moving the goalposts and face the fact that you picked a fight with me over something I never said.

Maybe I have picked you up wrong.

Is your argument that while nothing about this incident was racist, there are an element of posters who are racist and are defending chauvin?

nolivesmatter

Faugheen wrote: »

How can you hate racism when you don’t believe it occurs anywhere?

That's a strawman. No one here thinks racism doesn't occur anywhere. But it hasn't been shown to have occurred in George Floyds case. The argument that race was a factor hasn't gotten beyond the simple fact that Chauvin was white and Floyd was black.

ILoveYourVibes

Sandor Clegane wrote: »

Come on, you can't claim every arrest of a black person is racist, Black or white the cops were well within their rights to stop and arrest Floyd, the problem is how it was handled and their actions during the arrest...

By the way if anyone has any proof that this incident was race related id like to see it?

But that is JUST my point.

Black people DO NOT claim every arrest of a black person is racist do they?

drkpower

Overheal wrote: »

Your preference is understood. I offered you that editorial which does a good enough job for my satisfaction. I wasn’t obliged to respond to your post at all. You asked for an elaboration on a broad reaching topic that I don’t frankly feel like regurgitating or plagiarizing when the link will suit anyone who has a “genuine” curiosity for the subject matter, they will go read through.

That’s just an opinion piece. I’m not asking for someone else’s opinion. I’m asking for the facts that underly your opinion.

The clear facts are that the prosecution didn’t advance that argument. You haven’t shown any facts yet but I’m willing to listen.

Yellow_Fern

I get that people feel that differences in crime, and prison representation might give rise to the idea that police and justice system are out to get black people. However it is important to realise even within families there is inequality. Oldest children tend to do better. If equality cannot occur within families it is unlikely to occur between groups with different histories and culture. There is no country on earth where you have equality between all groups present. The US has some racism but far too little to explain the differences.

I see the posters who are still in denial about Chauvin's conviction and are trying to distract with all other irrelevant issues like race etc still haven't addressed any of the judge's guidance to the jury around the 3 counts, and how the jury didn't fulfil their sworn duty.

It's pointless engaging with these posters until they do that.

Overheal

drkpower wrote: »

That’s just an opinion piece. I’m not asking for someone else’s opinion. I’m asking for the facts that underly your opinion.

The clear facts are that the prosecution didn’t advance that argument. You haven’t shown any facts yet but I’m willing to listen.

drkpower wrote: »

I would prefer you to use your own words and arguments rather than someone else’s.

You aren’t making sense: first of all the defense did advance the superhuman strength argument so I don’t know how one would claim otherwise. Second that you’re not happy with an opinion piece where the author lays down facts that underly the observation yet demand that I lay down the facts that underly the observation. It’s not an efficient use of my time or yours. I took your “genuine” curiosity to mean you would be accommodating, rather than belligerent to furthering the meat of the discussing along rather than demanding the ritual of my rehashing the history of the superhuman strength defense in the court room when others have already done that for the both of us.

walshb

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

But that is JUST my point.

Black people DO NOT claim every arrest of a black person is racist do they?

No, they don’t. And I don’t think anyone is saying this.

But people in general are using color far too casually to label many incidents as race related, and many completely in the wrong, where color has eff all to do with it.

It’s gone ridiculously OTT..

People tripping over themselves to try and find racism where it does not exist..

kippy

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

The thing is I hear people say this police murder was not about race. But then they must believe police are murdering all Americans. And I don't hear them protesting about it.

I mean the ones getting out to protest about police shooting a latino little boy (Adam Toledo) are BLM supporters.

I would not be surprised if THIS is the movement to eventually help ALL Americans have better police.

If you don't think it's about race. Then you must believe all americans are in danger from the police and I would be VERY worried about that.

I mean then it could be me or you next.

I tend to stay away from these discussions for a few reasons but I feel to worth chiming in here.
There is a racism issue in America, as there is in many countries.
There probably is an issue with excessive force by certain individuals also, as there can be anywhere.
However the biggest issue in the States is the availability of guns and gun violence.
Granted there was no direct involvement here but the undercurrent to everything law enforcement does is based on those variables.
No point in speaking about it in fairness but it needs to be addressed in conjunction with any changes in how law is enforced and societal change in general.

Mic 1972

A “Justice System” ruled by the mob

walshb

Mic 1972 wrote: »

A “Justice System” ruled by the mob

And the politicians!!

That congresswoman, Watters should be locked up for encouraging insurrection if the verdict wasn’t the one she wanted. Disgusting behaviour from an elected official in a democracy..

And people from all sides should unite to condemn this behaviour

Piers wrote on an article, absolutely agreeing with the verdict, but slating her and her attitude. He was spot on.

nolivesmatter

ACitizenErased wrote: »

What a weird, weird comment from Pelosi.
https://twitter.com/AlexNBCNews/status/1384619869119918083?s=20

I just saw the clip now. I sort of get what she was trying to do there but my god it sounded so wrong. But tbh she came across very aloof about the whole thing.

BattleCorp

Deleted User wrote: »

I see the posters who are still in denial about Chauvin's conviction and are trying to distract with all other irrelevant issues like race etc still haven't addressed any of the judge's guidance to the jury around the 3 counts, and how the jury didn't fulfil their sworn duty.

It's pointless engaging with these posters until they do that.

It's moved on from him being guilty to him doing this because he's a racist which some people take issue with.

There's plenty of evidence that he killed Floyd but there's absolutely no evidence whatsoever that he did it because he was racist. Absolutely none.

I'll happily retract the above statement if someone can show me one piece of verifiable evidence that the Chauvin/Floyd interaction happened because Floyd was a different colour to Chauvin.

walshb

nolivesmatter wrote: »

I just saw the clip now. I sort of get what she was trying to do there but my god it sounded so wrong. But tbh she came across very aloof about the whole thing.

I saw what she was trying to do as well.

Tar a whole place force with one brush, and insinuate systemic racism. And label his killing as racially motivated..

A truly awful tweet!

drkpower

Overheal wrote: »

You aren’t making sense: first of all the defense did advance the superhuman strength argument so I don’t know how one would claim otherwise. Second that you’re not happy with an opinion piece where the author lays down facts that underly the observation yet demand that I lay down the facts that underly the observation. It’s not an efficient use of my time or yours. I took your “genuine” curiosity to mean you would be accommodating, rather than belligerent to furthering the meat of the discussing along rather than demanding the ritual of my rehashing the history of the superhuman strength defense in the court room when others have already done that for the both of us.

It’s you who is converting the ‘superhuman’ issue into a race argument; the defence not prosecution did that, not did either object on that basis. That being the case, you need to provide facts to support that position. Posting a link to someone else’s opinion doesn’t offer anything. And I didn’t see any facts supporting the argument in there either; just more opinion

walshb

walshb wrote: »

I saw what she was trying to do as well.

Tar a whole place force with one brush, and insinuate systemic racism. And label his killing as racially motivated..

A truly awful tweet!

There is systemic racism, it's a known issue.... God, you're very annoyed by systemic racism being highlighted.

drkpower wrote: »

It’s you who is converting the ‘superhuman’ issue into a race argument; the defence not prosecution did that, not did either object on that basis. That being the case, you need to provide facts to support that position. Posting a link to someone else’s opinion doesn’t offer anything. And I didn’t see any facts supporting the argument in there either; just more opinion

But the superhuman nonsense goes back to racial stereotypes so yep, it's fair to say it's a race argument.

Mic 1972

Deleted User wrote: »

There is systemic racism, it's a known issue.... God, you're very annoyed by systemic racism being highlighted..

There is no systemic racism.
it's just a false narrative that helps keeping people divided

walshb

Deleted User wrote: »

There is systemic racism, it's a known issue.... God, you're very annoyed by systemic racism being highlighted.



But the superhuman nonsense goes back to racial stereotypes so yep, it's fair to say it's a race argument.

Not in the slightest annoyed..

Just calling out disingenuous politicians bull****..

You seem to be desperately trying to inject racism here...which is far more divisive and dangerous than actual racism!!!

Hedgehod55

Mic 1972 wrote: »

There is no systemic racism.
it's just a false narrative that helps keeping people divided

The odds are intentionally stacked against minorities in the US, historically African-Americans, via voter suppression, police tactics, and a whole host of other politically installed barriers. Systemic racism doesn't have to be open and in-your-face in order to exist.

People forget just how recent Jim Crow laws and slavery actually is. Are we in a much better place than we were? Absolutely. Still a long way to go, as we can see by the delusional defense of Chauvin plenty of people here and in the US partake in. I'm not saying that Chauvin was racist or that what he did was racially motivated, by the way. I'm saying that his defenders couldn't give a toss whether his intentional and illegal act killed a person, because that person is a certain colour and because they dislike the BLM movement.

They're not related, but his defenders have made this about the "lefty media". Another way to make themselves the victims, not exactly a surprise. Chauvin is guilty as sin, just as much as he would be if he had done it to a white, Mexican, or Asian person.

nolivesmatter

Deleted User wrote: »

There is systemic racism, it's a known issue.... God, you're very annoyed by systemic racism being highlighted.

It hasn't been highlighted, merely alluded to.

mcmoustache

Mic 1972 wrote: »

There is no systemic racism.
it's just a false narrative that helps keeping people divided

When would you say that systemic racism ended?

mcmoustache

mcmoustache wrote: »

When would you say that systemic racism ended?

Well.. probably some time before the first black president, no?..

briany

The racism angle is a non-runner as far as Chauvin goes because we have no way of looking inside his head and seeing if he was thinking, "Hurr, hurr, hurr, I'm gonna choke this n____r the fk out!". The case was about an abuse of power as a cop and showing callous disregard of a restrained suspect, and the prosecution was smart not to bring race into it because it would have gotten the case nowhere.

Hedgehod55

Deleted User wrote: »

Well.. probably some time before the first black president, no?..

"I can't be racist, I have a black friend..."

Quantum Erasure

Hedgehod55 wrote: »

I'm saying that his defenders couldn't give a toss whether his intentional and illegal act killed a person, because that person is a certain colour and because they dislike the BLM movement.

They're not related, but his defenders have made this about the "lefty media". Another way to make themselves the victims, not exactly a surprise. Chauvin is guilty as sin, just as much as he would be if he had done it to a white, Mexican, or Asian person.

Really?

Hedgehod55

Hedgehod55 wrote: »

"I can't be racist, I have a black friend..."

What?.. listen to yourself..

nolivesmatter

Hedgehod55 wrote: »

People forget just how recent Jim Crow laws and slavery actually is. Are we in a much better place than we were? Absolutely. Still a long way to go, as we can see by the delusional defense of Chauvin plenty of people here and in the US partake in. I'm not saying that Chauvin was racist or that what he did was racially motivated, by the way. I'm saying that his defenders couldn't give a toss whether his intentional and illegal act killed a person, because that person is a certain colour and because they dislike the BLM movement.

You're saying the defense were apathetic towards George Floyd because he was black?

Quantum Erasure

Deleted User wrote: »

But the superhuman nonsense goes back to racial stereotypes so yep, it's fair to say it's a race argument.

No, it goes back to lads high on PCP, having no fear and feeling no pain

walshb

wrote:

I'm not saying that Chauvin was racist or that what he did was racially motivated, by the way. I'm saying that his defenders couldn't give a toss whether his intentional and illegal act killed a person, because that person is a certain colour

I am sure he has plenty defenders for the reason you mention, such is life!!

But there are also those debating and discussing this and not seeing color whatsoever..

Did you ever consider this? I am one.

Overheal

BattleCorp wrote: »

It's moved on from him being guilty to him doing this because he's a racist which some people take issue with.

There's plenty of evidence that he killed Floyd but there's absolutely no evidence whatsoever that he did it because he was racist. Absolutely none.

I'll happily retract the above statement if someone can show me one piece of verifiable evidence that the Chauvin/Floyd interaction happened because Floyd was a different colour to Chauvin.

With due respect that's to my reckoning just yet another very narrow, gilded goalpost. Or at the very least you seem to be arguing against something nobody is saying here: George Floyd had the police called to the scene by the store owner. The interaction happened, quite literally because of a 911 call, not because a cop looked at a brown person and pulled them over or whatever. This isn't in dispute. Yet you seem to be framing it as a way to exclude the evidence that the defense cited things like "superhuman strength" and "excited delirium" which have racial context to them, and therefore bring the element of race to this case - which has been denied through soap box vociferously here today yet which is demonstrably true.

Hedgehod55

Quantum Erasure wrote: »

Really?

Certain posters here, absolutely. More-so that they associate Floyd with a certain movement and political ideology so they defend Chauvin regardless of what he did. Seems pretty steeped in prejudice if you ask me.

What?.. listen to yourself..

"There can't be systemic racism because there has been a black president." Exact same thing.

You're saying the defense were apathetic towards George Floyd because he was black?

No, never even suggested as much about the defense. They have a legal and moral duty to defend their client. I am talking specifically about people who do all types of mental gymnastics to defend Chauvin simply because they hate "da libs" and BLM. Neither of which have anything to do with the events that took place that day.

walshb

Quantum Erasure wrote: »

No, it goes back to lads high on PCP, having no fear and feeling no pain

Yes. But some people constantly want to find the racist angle in everything!!

Overheal

Quantum Erasure wrote: »

No, it goes back to lads high on PCP, having no fear and feeling no pain

And yet neither Rodney King or George Floyd, etc. had PCP in their system.

Overheal

walshb wrote: »

Yes. But some people constantly want to find the racist angle in everything!!

Like building inspectors who keep finding shantys not up to code, the problem is not always the observer. Let's pull back though, as my bookshelf is not racist so it can't be nearly as melodramatic as saying there's a racist angle to everything.

Foxtrol

BattleCorp wrote: »

There's no evidence that Chauvin knelt on George Floyd's neck for an excessive period because he was black. Zero.

Yes, the BLM movement took this incident and ran with it and turned it into a race issue, but that doesn't mean that Chauvin acted the way he did because Floyd was a different race to him.

This is coming close to an attempt at willful ignorance.

When the RUC were carrying out similar two tier policing on Catholics in the north, few if any were asking for a case by case analysis on whether each was driven prejudice, nor claiming that the instances were being 'turned into' an issue.

mcmoustache

Deleted User wrote: »

Well.. probably some time before the first black president, no?..

You do realise that blacks have been getting elected to office since the mid 1800s? Actually, you evidently don't but that's OK. Now you do.


Still, I like the attempt at "logic" here. You're suggesting that the election of a black man by a quarter of the US population is proof that systemic racism is gone. It's charming, in a way. I mean, you could have found out how such a thing can be measured, maybe looked at the abstract of some study from the Cato institute but why bother with that when you can apply the kind of "reasoning" that someone might find in a shít joke by some arse on twitter?


Yeah, I'm not really convinced there.

PokeHerKing

Christ lads the civil rights movement only ended 50 years ago. How can anyone state systemic racism doesn't exist in America?

That doesn't mean you have to absolve all people of colour (not color) of any and all personal accountability or responsibility for their own actions.

It just means you can call a spade a spade.

BattleCorp

Overheal wrote: »

With due respect that's to my reckoning just yet another very narrow, gilded goalpost. Or at the very least you seem to be arguing against something nobody is saying here: George Floyd had the police called to the scene by the store owner. The interaction happened, quite literally because of a 911 call, not because a cop looked at a brown person and pulled them over or whatever. This isn't in dispute.

Agreed. But come on, this isn't what the trial was about. It's about what happened after that. The trial was about Chauvin's knee. And my thinking is that there is absolutely no proof that Chauvin applied the knee for an excessive period because Floyd was black.

Like I said, show me proof that Chauvin 'stuck the knee' into Floyd because he was black and I'll retract my statement.

Yet you seem to be framing it as a way to exclude the evidence that the defense cited things like "superhuman strength" and "excited delirium" which have racial context to them, and therefore bring the element of race to this case - which has been denied through soap box vociferously here today yet which is demonstrably true.

The defence can cite what they like, that's their job. They mention everything to try and muddy the waters. That still doesn't prove that Chauvin committed manslaugher/murder etc. on Floyd because he was black. Chauvin might well be a racist, I don't know, but there's absolutely no proof of that in the video or in the trial.

walshb

Foxtrol wrote: »

This is coming close to an attempt at willful ignorance.

When the RUC were carrying out similar two tier policing on Catholics in the north, few if any were asking for a case by case analysis on whether each was driven prejudice, nor claiming that the instances were being 'turned into' an issue.

Have you an insight into Chauvin’s state of mind?

Only he knows if he stayed kneeling on George because George was a black man, and he (Chauvin) is racist..

I think the color of the victim was not in any way a factor in what happened..

Chauvin went OTT in his restraining Floyd. Simple as that..

Overheal

PokeHerKing wrote: »

Christ lads the civil rights movement only ended 50 years ago. How can anyone state systemic racism doesn't exist in America?

That doesn't mean you have to absolve all people of colour (not color) of any and all personal accountability or responsibility for their own actions.

It just means you can call a spade a spade.

To be fair who is to say the movement ended? The movement seemed to have never stopped.

Feisar

PokeHerKing wrote: »

It just means you can call a spade a spade.

Um I think it means you can’t.

BattleCorp

Foxtrol wrote: »

This is coming close to an attempt at willful ignorance.

When the RUC were carrying out similar two tier policing on Catholics in the north, few if any were asking for a case by case analysis on whether each was driven prejudice, nor claiming that the instances were being 'turned into' an issue.

Once again, proof?

If there was proof that Chauvin knelt on Floyd because he was a racist, don't you think the prosecution might have brought it up as an aggravating factor?

Going forward, will every interaction between a white police officer and a black person be classed as racist? Serious question.