Derek Chauvin murder trial (George Floyd)

Manach

Manach wrote: »

Unlike seemly a majority of posters, I've studied law. This result both at a procedural level and subsequentent sentencing is an example of a railroaded verdict that has more in common with a politicised show-trial than an excercise in justice.

He's attempted to get a retrial and failed so I imagine the judge who has also studied law does not agree with you. There just seems to be every effort to reject the outcome as illegitimate. The defence failed to provide any credible defence and I'd suspect that's a big factor.

It's really predictable which posters tend to get upset by the result by the way.

alchemist33

Sand wrote: »

This is where your ideological indoctrination has brought us. You'll see BLM buring cities down and dragging people out of cars to beat them and think this is peaceful protest. You'll see unarmed Ashli Babbitt get gunned down and think she was a violent terrorist bringing down the US government.

Name a city that burned down in the US this century

jimwallace197

Deleted User wrote: »

He's attempted to get a retrial and failed so I imagine the judge who has also studied law does not agree with you. There just seems to be every effort to reject the outcome as illegitimate. The defence failed to provide any credible defence and I'd suspect that's a big factor.

It's really predictable which posters tend to get upset by the result by the way.

And its really predictable the type of posters who like to ramble on especially about issues they don't have the first clue about. Trying to come across as woke/sjws. Often they don't know the first thing about real life

jimwallace197

jimwallace197 wrote: »

And its really predictable the type of posters who like to ramble on especially about issues they don't have the first clue about. Trying to come across as woke/sjws. Often they don't know the first thing about real life

Cool, Jim...

Faugheen

jimwallace197 wrote: »

And its really predictable the type of posters who like to ramble on especially about issues they don't have the first clue about. Trying to come across as woke/sjws. Often they don't know the first thing about real life

Good man Jim and all your infinite wisdom

Timberrrrrrrr

While it's a decent result I would have preferred he got longer, ah well I suppose that long locked away in a segregation unit will give him plenty of time to reflect on his actions.

Im no fan of the online left but look lads, kneeling on a fellas neck for nine minutes on camera as he tells you he cannot breathe is not the hill i would choose to die on

AMKC

So sad seeing George Floyd's little daughter talking about her Daddy. The poor girl is far too young to comprehend what has happened at 7 years of age but give her another 7 and she will either come to hate Derrick Chauvin or forgive him but I think it will be the former which is a terrible thing but what he done is just unforgivable and even do George Floyd was no angel he did not deserve to die the way he did. No one deserves that. To die a slow painful death was a horrible way to die. He did not deserve what happened to him so Derrick Chauvin deserves every year of hell that is coming to him and I hope the years are long and boring for him.

Tork

I listened to one of Pat Kenny's podcasts from yesterday morning and his US correspondent thought Chauvin would get somewhere in the region of 25 years. So although he got a bit less than that in the end, it's broadly in line with what is normally handed out anyway.

Deleted User

Deleted User wrote: »

Im no fan of the online left but look lads, kneeling on a fellas neck for nine minutes on camera as he tells you he cannot breathe is not the hill i would choose to die on

Yeah. Even if he'd been kneeling on a potentially violent, struggling suspect for that long it would have been much less black and white. But he kept kneeling on a handcuffed man past the point of him stopping moving and past the point of him losing consciousness, past the point of realising that Floyd was in need of emergency medical help, and past the point that another officer tried and failed to find a pulse.

Oranage2

I think it's fair, would rather see a 30 year sentence for the murder but 22 is justice.

briany

AMKC wrote: »

So sad seeing George Floyd's little daughter talking about her Daddy. The poor girl is far too young to comprehend what has happened at 7 years of age but give her another 7 and she will either come to hate Derrick Chauvin or forgive him but I think it will be the former which is a terrible thing but what he done is just unforgivable and even do George Floyd was no angel he did not deserve to die the way he did. No one deserves that. To die a slow painful death was a horrible way to die. He did not deserve what happened to him so Derrick Chauvin deserves every year of hell that is coming to him and I hope the years are long and boring for him.

What George Floyd did in the years, months and days leading up his final moment doesn't really come into it anyway because the whole thing is about a police officer failing to show duty of care to a restrained suspect, and not only failing to show it but doing so over an extended period with time to think about what was happening. This is, at best, gross negligence, and would be equally as wrong whatever the race of the victim, and whatever the criminal history of the victim.

Mic 1972

briany wrote: »

What George Floyd did in the years, months and days leading up his final moment doesn't really come into it anyway because the whole thing is about a police officer failing to show duty of care to a restrained suspect, and not only failing to show it but doing so over an extended period with time to think about what was happening. This is, at best, gross negligence, and would be equally as wrong whatever the race of the victim, and whatever the criminal history of the victim.

Yet, we are reminded of what a wonderful person he was and how badly missed he will be. When plenty of people who had the misfortune to deal with his crimes may beg to disagree with that narrative

AMKC

briany wrote: »

What George Floyd did in the years, months and days leading up his final moment doesn't really come into it anyway because the whole thing is about a police officer failing to show duty of care to a restrained suspect, and not only failing to show it but doing so over an extended period with time to think about what was happening. This is, at best, gross negligence, and would be equally as wrong whatever the race of the victim, and whatever the criminal history of the victim.

Yea and I agree totally. Would he have done it do if George Floyd had of been white? I would say probably not. How Derrick Chauvin did not think about what he was doing when he was doing it or how he justified what he was doing I would like to know. We probably never will do.

Mic 1972

AMKC wrote: »

Yea and I agree totally. Would he have done it do if George Floyd had of been white? I would say probably not. How Derrick Chauvin did not think about what he was doing when he was doing it or how he justified what he was doing I would like to know. We probably never will do.

and still stats are showing how white people killed by cops are higher than blacks

Jimbob1977

Same sentence as Anders Breivik.

Give or take a year.

ancapailldorcha

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

It's a pathetic attempt by him to present himself as something other than the racist murderer that he is.

And that rhetoric is why we can't talk like grown ups.

ancapailldorcha

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

It's a pathetic attempt by him to present himself as something other than the racist murderer that he is.

Deleted User wrote: »

You're gonna offend the usual suspects now...

Deleted User wrote: »

And that rhetoric is why we can't talk like grown ups.

That one was just for you Mike. I'm a usual suspect, but I'm not offended. I just don't understand where racism poked it's ugly head in.

Racist murderer......

Racist.....

Murderer.....

I understand he murdered someone so I get the murderer bit.

Racist............

Is it because he was black?

briany

Mic 1972 wrote: »

Yet, we are reminded of what a wonderful person he was and how badly missed he will be. When plenty of people who had the misfortune to deal with his crimes may beg to disagree with that narrative

Reminded by who? If you're talking about online or on the news, it has no real bearing on the case and you can ignore it if you so choose. In court, if we're talking about testimony pertaining to the character of Chauvin or Floyd, the defence is as free to bring witnesses to talk about this as the prosecution is, so no-one really gets a monopoly on how to characterise either man in the place where it actually counts.

Mic 1972

Mic 1972 wrote: »

and still stats are showing how white people killed by cops are higher than blacks

And you're trying to divert attention from Chauvin who has been tried and convicted...

[Deleted User] wrote: »

That one was just for you Mike. I'm a usual suspect, but I'm not offended. I just don't understand where racism poked it's ugly head in.

Racist murderer......

Racist.....

Murderer.....

I understand he murdered someone so I get the murderer bit.

Racist............

Is it because he was black?

Not my problem if you're taking personal offence when I didn't mention you.

Penn

Mic 1972 wrote: »

and still stats are showing how white people killed by cops are higher than blacks

Numerically, not proportionally. That's the point.

https://www.pnas.org/content/116/34/16793

Fig. 2 displays the ratio of lifetime risk for each racial–ethnic group relative to risk for whites for both men and women. Note that a rate ratio of 1 indicates equality in mortality risk relative to whites. The highest levels of inequality in mortality risk are experienced by black men. Black men are about 2.5 times more likely to be killed by police over the life course than are white men. Black women are about 1.4 times more likely to be killed by police than are white women.

Billy Mays

Deleted User wrote: »

That one was just for you Mike. I'm a usual suspect, but I'm not offended. I just don't understand where racism poked it's ugly head in.

Racist murderer......

Racist.....

Murderer.....

I understand he murdered someone so I get the murderer bit.

Racist............

Is it because he was black?

I love this guy's inflated sense of self importance

Deleted User

Deleted User wrote: »

Not my problem if you're taking personal offence when I didn't mention you.

Not your problem at all. Never meant to say it was. It's a fact that when you say "usual suspects" , I am included in that demographic due to your historic posting.

I just wanted you to know I accept it and (still) refute the fact that you deem me as a racist.

Billy Mays

Billy Mays wrote: »

I love this guy's inflated sense of self importance

Good to know Billy. I'm not important. Not in the slightest.

Do you think I am one of "the usual suspects" or should I just assume you mean others? Is it just a way of shutting down people who don't agree with your view that this was a racist situation? For fear of becoming a "usual suspect"?

I'm uneasy with, and feel it is exceptionally inflammatory to call chauvin a racist and to deem to death of Floyd as a racist murder.

Tell me how

Deleted User wrote: »

Not your problem at all. Never meant to say it was. It's a fact that when you say "usual suspects" , I am included in that demographic due to your historic posting.

I just wanted you to know I accept it and (still) refute the fact that you deem me as a racist.

This is the second thread in little over a week in which you are defending yourself from being accused of being a racist (even though that wasn't done in either case).

If you can assume someone is thinking something based on their historical posting, do you not think they can assume an opinion of you based on yours?

briany

AMKC wrote: »

Yea and I agree totally. Would he have done it do if George Floyd had of been white? I would say probably not. How Derrick Chauvin did not think about what he was doing when he was doing it or how he justified what he was doing I would like to know. We probably never will do.

We have no way of knowing what would have happened if the suspect had been white, to be fair.



What I do think, though, is that if the incident had not been filmed, it would have simply been chalked up as another day in the naked city, and Chauvin would still be in a police uniform rather than a prison one.

Tell me how

briany wrote: »

We have no way of knowing what would have happened if the suspect had been white, to be fair.



What I do think, though, is that if the incident had not been filmed, it would have simply been chalked up as another day in the naked city, and Chauvin would still be in a police uniform rather than a prison one.

Will Smith said it, 'Racism isn't getting worse, it's getting filmed'.

Link

Tell me how

Tell me how wrote: »

Will Smith said it, 'Racism isn't getting worse, it's getting filmed'.

Link

I agree with that

Faugheen

briany wrote: »

What I do think, though, is that if the incident had not been filmed, it would have simply been chalked up as another day in the naked city, and Chauvin would still be in a police uniform rather than a prison one.

Good thing someone caught him in the act then, isn’t it?

Tell me how

Tell me how wrote: »

This is the second thread in little over a week in which you are defending yourself from being accused of being a racist (even though that wasn't done in either case).

If you can assume someone is thinking something based on their historical posting, do you not think they can assume an opinion of you based on yours?

Absolutely they can.

But again, the fact that someone can call this a racist murder and it to go unchallenged, and even supported, is a little worrying.

Tell me how

Deleted User wrote: »

Absolutely they can.

But again, the fact that someone can call this a racist murder and it to go unchallenged, and even supported, is a little worrying.

But by that logic, as long as the perpetrator of a crime doesn't say anything overtly racist, or doesn't have any symbols or history of anything racist linked to him, then they could never be accused of being racially motivated. But they could still be racist, they just keep it hidden.
My problem with this is that it is effectively telling racially motivated people that 'just don't make it obvious', and they can still carry on being motivated and acting in such a way.

Now, if you feel that Chauvin was not personally racially motivated, then it seems logical to ask why he behaved as he did, and that (which is why so much public outcry emerged from this incident) leads the conversation towards the concept of systemic racism.

Maybe Chauvin behaved as he had been shown to behave when dealing with these types of calls, in this part of town, or with this type of suspect. That is the principle and concern behind systemic racism, not that new individuals are indoctrinated in the logic behind white supremacy or anything but simply that they are tacitly trained to act in certain situations in a certain way which could be prejudicial and excessive towards those in particular circumstances.

But when people ask that police forces review their practices and ensure that this is not happening, they get uber defensive and say (as you are kind of doing) that they are being accused of being some form of white supremacist.

Tell me how

Tell me how wrote: »

But by that logic, as long as the perpetrator of a crime doesn't say anything overtly racist, or doesn't have any symbols or history of anything racist linked to him, then they could never be accused of being racially motivated. But they could still be racist, they just keep it hidden.
My problem with this is that it is effectively telling racially motivated people that 'just don't make it obvious', and they can still carry on being motivated and acting in such a way.

Chauvin may have been a racist. I don't know.

But to let people claim that he is a racist murderer and for it to go unchallenged or tacitly accepted is disgusting.

Using the "well he may have been a secret racist" defense is ridiculous.

Nothing in any footage released, or evidence given in court has shown this to be a racially motivated murder. The fact that people are okay with it being used as tinder to spark a racial flame is horrible in my opinion.

Tell me how

Deleted User wrote: »

Chauvin may have been a racist. I don't know.

But to let people claim that he is a racist murderer and for it to go unchallenged or tacitly accepted is disgusting.

Using the "well he may have been a secret racist" defense is ridiculous.

Nothing in any footage released, or evidence given in court has shown this to be a racially motivated murder. The fact that people are okay with it being used as tinder to spark a racial flame is horrible in my opinion.

But you, and several others, here and publicly are challenging it..... Repeatedly.

Your last point just reiterates the message, 'don't make it obvious, and nothing you do can be called racist'.

That, to me, is giving racists a pass and I find that more disgusting than looking at what happened in this incident and not wondering what was the motivation behind it.

Tell me how

Tell me how wrote: »

But you, and several others, here and publicly are challenging it..... Repeatedly.

Your last point just reiterates the message, 'don't make it obvious, and nothing you do can be called racist'.

That, to me, is giving racists a pass and I find that more disgusting than looking at what happened in this incident and not wondering what was the motivation behind it.

Well that's where opinions differ. I find you making this or even allowing the implication that this was a racist murder ultimately more disgusting.

Racism is a huge part of my life and something I am passionate about and something I advocate against.

Deleted User

Deleted User wrote: »

Well that's where opinions differ. I find you making this or even allowing the implication that this was a racist murder ultimately more disgusting.

Racism is a huge part of my life and something I am passionate about and something I advocate against.

:rolleyes: You're involved in topics on a regular basis where you get annoyed by any highlighting of racism. Eg you're the type of person who would be annoyed by the statement that systemic racism is an issue in the US police force. So shout that you're the biggest advocate against racism etc. It's just not very visible in your posts.

Tell me how

Deleted User wrote: »

Well that's where opinions differ. I find you making this or even allowing the implication that this was a racist murder ultimately more disgusting.

Racism is a huge part of my life and something I am passionate about and something I advocate against.

Again, I don't think you'll find a post of me saying that this was definitely a racist murder in terms of what was going on in Chauvins head on that day.

But I repeat, I think it is evidence, of an ingrained style of applying policing which has likely been inculcated over a sustained period within which the practices for how police officers view certain situations and how to act when confronted with them has been prejudicially unfair towards a particular class of people.

Now, if racism is a big part of your life, and I'm not saying it isn't, and you truly advocate against it then I find it strange your vehement opposition to any those who are publicly advocating against racism (whether that be kneeling footballers or BLM protesters) and effectively saying that there is no merit in them doing so unless there is clear and irrefutable evidence of a racist motivation in each and every incident in which it may have been a factor.

Smee_Again

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Racism is a huge part of my life and something I am passionate about and something I advocate against.

Not sure anyone is buying the end of that statement.

Your constant downplaying of racism on this site would imply otherwise.

Faugheen

Deleted User wrote: »

Racism is a huge part of my life and something I am passionate about and something I advocate against.

Apart from when it's white people (as deranged as they are) aiming it at our Tanaiste.

You are nowhere to be seen when something like that happens.

osarusan

Tell me how wrote: »

Maybe Chauvin behaved as he had been shown to behave when dealing with these types of calls, in this part of town, or with this type of suspect. That is the principle and concern behind systemic racism, not that new individuals are indoctrinated in the logic behind white supremacy or anything but simply that they are tacitly trained to act in certain situations in a certain way which could be prejudicial and excessive towards those in particular circumstances.

Maybe, but those arguing that this is an example of systemic racism still have to argue their case, rather than just assert it. I've never seen any evidence presented of either direct or systemic racism playing a part in the killing.


Just because a crime happens and there is a difference between the perpetrator and the victim (different skin colour, sex, nationality, religion, ethnicity, sexual orientation, etc), that doesn't mean the crime occurred because of, or the perpetrator was motivated by, that difference.


It's a possiblity, for sure, but the argument still needs to be made.

MontgomeryClift

Muahahaha wrote: »

Lol you're calling people here indoctrinated whilst at the same time claiming the Capital Riots as non violent, well there was 140 injured police officers who would disagree with you


https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/public-safety/police-union-says-140-officers-injured-in-capitol-riot/2021/01/27/60743642-60e2-11eb-9430-e7c77b5b0297_story.html

You should really get your head out of those far right websites and read the proper news

Proper news, brought to you by a capitalist oligarch.

Tell me how

osarusan wrote: »

Maybe, but those arguing that this is an example of systemic racism still have to argue their case, rather than just assert it. I've never seen any evidence presented of either direct or systemic racism playing a part in the killing.


Just because a crime happens and there is a difference between the perpetrator and the victim (different skin colour, sex, nationality, religion, ethnicity, sexual orientation, etc), that doesn't mean the crime occurred because of, or the perpetrator was motivated by, that difference.


It's a possiblity, for sure, but the argument still needs to be made.

Two questions?

1. Do you think systemic racism could ever exist in any organisation?
2. If yes, what form of evidence do you think would have to be present for you to believe that it played a factor in the incident that led to GF's death?

Mic 1972

Deleted User wrote: »

:rolleyes: You're involved in topics on a regular basis where you get annoyed by any highlighting of racism. Eg you're the type of person who would be annoyed by the statement that systemic racism is an issue in the US police force. So shout that you're the biggest advocate against racism etc. It's just not very visible in your posts.

Being against racism also means being against the systemic racism argument, which is basically a fancy term for racism against white people

Tell me how

Deleted User wrote: »

Well that's where opinions differ. I find you making this or even allowing the implication that this was a racist murder ultimately more disgusting.

Racism is a huge part of my life and something I am passionate about and something I advocate against.

Can I go back to this and ask, how do you advocate against racism?

I ask because you were against footballers kneeling to call attention to racism, you were against BLM protests throughout last year calling attention to racism.

So what form of advocacy do you do that I presume you think others should do?

Mic 1972

Mic 1972 wrote: »

Being against racism also means being against the systemic racism argument, which is basically a fancy term for racism against white people

Sure thing Mic.... White people are really struggling due to racism. :rolleyes:

Deleted User

Deleted User wrote: »

:rolleyes: You're involved in topics on a regular basis where you get annoyed by any highlighting of racism. Eg you're the type of person who would be annoyed by the statement that systemic racism is an issue in the US police force. So shout that you're the biggest advocate against racism etc. It's just not very visible in your posts.

Roll you eyes all you want Michael.

I'm annoyed that the death of Floyd being labelled incorrectly as racist would have a knock-on effect in Ireland of nkenchos death also being used as an example of racism.

All the while, actual racism is swept under the carpet, allowed and tolerated because it isn't popular or in the news.

I ****ing hate when your type of racism is highlighted. I genuinely do. The type that is begging to be accepted. The type that makes anyone who isn't white a victim. The one that makes every white person the recipient of privilege.

You're right. I ****ing hate that.

Racism exists and is disgusting. But a lot of it comes from your side of the aisle, knowingly or not.

Being told that you are a victim constantly is sometimes just as bad as being told you are inferior rarely.

Mic 1972

Deleted User wrote: »

Sure thing Mic.... White people are really struggling due to racism. :rolleyes:

Critical race theory says hi

Deleted User

Deleted User wrote: »

Sure thing Mic.... White people are really struggling due to racism. :rolleyes:

Yeah mic. Non whites are the victims. Jeeze.

Timberrrrrrrr

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Roll you eyes all you want Michael.

I'm annoyed that the death of Floyd being labelled incorrectly as racist would have a knock-on effect in Ireland of nkenchos death also being used as an example of racism.

All the while, actual racism is swept under the carpet, allowed and tolerated because it isn't popular or in the news.

I ****ing hate when your type of racism is highlighted. I genuinely do. The type that is begging to be accepted. The type that makes anyone who isn't white a victim. The one that makes every white person the recipient of privilege.

You're right. I ****ing hate that.

Racism exists and is disgusting. But a lot of it comes from your side of the aisle, knowingly or not.

Being told that you are a victim constantly is sometimes just as bad as being told you are inferior rarely.

One lunged at armed police officers and was shot in self defence.

Ones neck was knelt on for 10 minutes even when no pulse was present and had told the officer he couldn't breath.

Two totally different things.

Tell me how

Mic 1972 wrote: »

Critical race theory says hi

Can you explain what Critical Race Theory is, in your words? Thanks.

osarusan

Tell me how wrote: »

Do you think systemic racism could ever exist in any organisation?

Yes.

Tell me how wrote: »

If yes, what form of evidence do you think would have to be present for you to believe that it played a factor in the incident that led to GF's death?

This is the heart of the matter.

And i think it's an almost impossible question to answer in this case. But one thing you'd look for is that when all other factors are equal, black people are still more likely to suffer (be arrested, be found guilty,be shot, be killed, etc) in certain situations than others. You'd want to use statistics and establish a pattern.

Scenarios such as this - slow asphyxiation while under police restraint - are mercifully so rare that I think establishing such a pattern is extremely difficult. In fact, the only similar incident I can think of that was captured on film was Tony Timpa, who was white.

Now I have questions for you:

1. Are you arguing that systemic racism played a role in Chauvin's killing of Floyd?

2. If yes, what evidence do you offer to support that argument?