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Derek Chauvin murder trial (George Floyd)

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    #2642
    Overheal
    Registered Users Posts: 82,509 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    Quantum Erasure wrote: »
    No, it goes back to lads high on PCP, having no fear and feeling no pain

    And yet neither Rodney King or George Floyd, etc. had PCP in their system.


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    #2643
    Overheal
    Registered Users Posts: 82,509 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    walshb wrote: »
    Yes. But some people constantly want to find the racist angle in everything!!

    Like building inspectors who keep finding shantys not up to code, the problem is not always the observer. Let's pull back though, as my bookshelf is not racist so it can't be nearly as melodramatic as saying there's a racist angle to everything.


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    #2644
    Foxtrol
    Registered Users Posts: 11,136 ✭✭✭✭Foxtrol


    BattleCorp wrote: »
    There's no evidence that Chauvin knelt on George Floyd's neck for an excessive period because he was black. Zero.

    Yes, the BLM movement took this incident and ran with it and turned it into a race issue, but that doesn't mean that Chauvin acted the way he did because Floyd was a different race to him.

    This is coming close to an attempt at willful ignorance.

    When the RUC were carrying out similar two tier policing on Catholics in the north, few if any were asking for a case by case analysis on whether each was driven prejudice, nor claiming that the instances were being 'turned into' an issue.


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    #2645
    mcmoustache
    Registered Users Posts: 7,236 ✭✭✭mcmoustache


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Well.. probably some time before the first black president, no?..


    You do realise that blacks have been getting elected to office since the mid 1800s? Actually, you evidently don't but that's OK. Now you do.


    Still, I like the attempt at "logic" here. You're suggesting that the election of a black man by a quarter of the US population is proof that systemic racism is gone. It's charming, in a way. I mean, you could have found out how such a thing can be measured, maybe looked at the abstract of some study from the Cato institute but why bother with that when you can apply the kind of "reasoning" that someone might find in a shít joke by some arse on twitter?


    Yeah, I'm not really convinced there.


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    #2646
    PokeHerKing
    Registered Users Posts: 4,324 ✭✭✭PokeHerKing


    Christ lads the civil rights movement only ended 50 years ago. How can anyone state systemic racism doesn't exist in America?

    That doesn't mean you have to absolve all people of colour (not color) of any and all personal accountability or responsibility for their own actions.

    It just means you can call a spade a spade.


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    #2647
    BattleCorp
    Registered Users Posts: 11,774 ✭✭✭✭BattleCorp


    Overheal wrote: »
    With due respect that's to my reckoning just yet another very narrow, gilded goalpost. Or at the very least you seem to be arguing against something nobody is saying here: George Floyd had the police called to the scene by the store owner. The interaction happened, quite literally because of a 911 call, not because a cop looked at a brown person and pulled them over or whatever. This isn't in dispute.

    Agreed. But come on, this isn't what the trial was about. It's about what happened after that. The trial was about Chauvin's knee. And my thinking is that there is absolutely no proof that Chauvin applied the knee for an excessive period because Floyd was black.

    Like I said, show me proof that Chauvin 'stuck the knee' into Floyd because he was black and I'll retract my statement.
    Yet you seem to be framing it as a way to exclude the evidence that the defense cited things like "superhuman strength" and "excited delirium" which have racial context to them, and therefore bring the element of race to this case - which has been denied through soap box vociferously here today yet which is demonstrably true.

    The defence can cite what they like, that's their job. They mention everything to try and muddy the waters. That still doesn't prove that Chauvin committed manslaugher/murder etc. on Floyd because he was black. Chauvin might well be a racist, I don't know, but there's absolutely no proof of that in the video or in the trial.


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    #2648
    walshb
    Registered Users Posts: 55,529 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    Foxtrol wrote: »
    This is coming close to an attempt at willful ignorance.

    When the RUC were carrying out similar two tier policing on Catholics in the north, few if any were asking for a case by case analysis on whether each was driven prejudice, nor claiming that the instances were being 'turned into' an issue.

    Have you an insight into Chauvin’s state of mind?

    Only he knows if he stayed kneeling on George because George was a black man, and he (Chauvin) is racist..

    I think the color of the victim was not in any way a factor in what happened..

    Chauvin went OTT in his restraining Floyd. Simple as that..


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    #2649
    Overheal
    Registered Users Posts: 82,509 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    PokeHerKing wrote: »
    Christ lads the civil rights movement only ended 50 years ago. How can anyone state systemic racism doesn't exist in America?

    That doesn't mean you have to absolve all people of colour (not color) of any and all personal accountability or responsibility for their own actions.

    It just means you can call a spade a spade.

    To be fair who is to say the movement ended? The movement seemed to have never stopped.


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    #2650
    Feisar
    Registered Users Posts: 6,649 ✭✭✭Feisar


    PokeHerKing wrote: »
    It just means you can call a spade a spade.

    Um I think it means you can’t.

    First they came for the socialists...



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    #2651
    BattleCorp
    Registered Users Posts: 11,774 ✭✭✭✭BattleCorp


    Foxtrol wrote: »
    This is coming close to an attempt at willful ignorance.

    When the RUC were carrying out similar two tier policing on Catholics in the north, few if any were asking for a case by case analysis on whether each was driven prejudice, nor claiming that the instances were being 'turned into' an issue.

    Once again, proof?

    If there was proof that Chauvin knelt on Floyd because he was a racist, don't you think the prosecution might have brought it up as an aggravating factor?

    Going forward, will every interaction between a white police officer and a black person be classed as racist? Serious question.


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    #2652
    Overheal
    Registered Users Posts: 82,509 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    BattleCorp wrote: »
    Agreed. But come on, this isn't what the trial was about. It's about what happened after that. The trial was about Chauvin's knee. And my thinking is that there is absolutely no proof that Chauvin applied the knee for an excessive period because Floyd was black.

    Like I said, show me proof that Chauvin 'stuck the knee' into Floyd because he was black and I'll retract my statement.



    The defence can cite what they like, that's their job. They mention everything to try and muddy the waters. That still doesn't prove that Chauvin committed manslaugher/murder etc. on Floyd because he was black. Chauvin might well be a racist, I don't know, but there's absolutely no proof of that in the video or in the trial.

    Thank you. I can't.

    That's a much more sensible argument to make and stand on than 'no evidence of race anywhere to do with anything in this' etc.

    That said, I don't accept the defense explanations for why he did any of that. The best I can argue is that by using the superhuman strength defense either he, his lawyers or the police union etc. is using a defense rooted in implicit bias. If the defense is arguing fear of Floyd's superhuman strength then I argue it is admission to a racial bias, even if we accept the argument that he held the racial bias without any sort of racist malice. My argument cannot be made beyond your reasonable doubts, so there we are at the discussion juncture I think.


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    #2653
    walshb
    Registered Users Posts: 55,529 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    Had Floyd not resisted arrest and complied with the cops he would still be alive, because the kneeling incident would never have happened, and more importantly, the racist angle being constantly injected here would not be needed...

    Just an observation..

    Before anyone jumps in. I am not saying his death was his fault..

    George’s color was not a factor in what happened to him.


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    #2654
    Faugheen
    Site Banned Posts: 12,341 ✭✭✭✭Faugheen


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Well.. probably some time before the first black president, no?..

    The black president who faced allegations that he was born in Africa?


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    #2655
    Faugheen
    Site Banned Posts: 12,341 ✭✭✭✭Faugheen


    walshb wrote: »
    Had Floyd not resisted arrest and complied with the cops he would still be alive, because the kneeling incident would never have happened, and more importantly, the racist angle being constantly injected here would not be needed...

    Just an observation..

    Before anyone jumps in. I am not saying his death was his fault..

    George’s color was not a factor in what happened to him.

    Yes you are.


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    #2656
    walshb
    Registered Users Posts: 55,529 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    Faugheen wrote: »
    Yes you are.

    My point completely missed by you..

    And I am correct. Unless you are trying to say the kneeling incident would still have occurred?


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    #2657
    Overheal
    Registered Users Posts: 82,509 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    Faugheen wrote: »
    The black president who faced allegations that he was born in Africa?

    And burned in effigy. I mean, every President is eventually it seems, but you'd think if racism had really been as dead as those people burning the effigies argued at the time, they definitely would have been at least the tiniest bit woke enough to have not burned him in effigy, for those woke/racism-is-dead reasons. Sooooo....


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    #2658
    Billy Mays
    Registered Users Posts: 3,223 ✭✭✭Billy Mays


    Faugheen wrote: »
    The black president who faced allegations that he was born in Africa?
    By none other than the very next president no less 🤔


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    #2659
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Faugheen wrote: »
    The black president who faced allegations that he was born in Africa?

    Well, like, if the entire system is set up to keep the black man down, you'd think it would have some mechanism in place to ensure one of them doesn't become the most powerful man in the world..

    It's just so simplistic..Are you not capable of a level of abstraction above "well they were a different colour"?..


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    #2660
    Overheal
    Registered Users Posts: 82,509 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    walshb wrote: »
    My point completely missed by you..

    And I am correct. Unless you are trying to say the kneeling incident would still have occurred?

    I mean your point is if I didn't plug my phone in today I wouldn't be having this conversation.

    It's just not an especially appreciable observation to say had the situation not happened we wouldn't be talking about the situation or how it happened.


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    #2661
    Overheal
    Registered Users Posts: 82,509 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Well, like, if the entire system is set up to keep the black man down, you'd think it would have some mechanism in place to ensure one of them doesn't become the most powerful man in the world..

    It's just so simplistic..Are you not capable of a level of abstraction above "well they were a different colour"?..

    Not is, was. And all of that significantly informs how policing is done today.

    Though, to be fair I can't really say there isn't still systemic instituting of racism today evidenced by the Trump movement, contextualized with how many of those Trump diehards are cops, and lawmakers alike. I cannot specifically tell you there isn't systemic racism being built into law or law enforcement, because I see evidence of it happening.


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    #2662
    Faugheen
    Site Banned Posts: 12,341 ✭✭✭✭Faugheen


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Well, like, if the entire system is set up to keep the black man down, you'd think it would have some mechanism in place to ensure one of them doesn't become the most powerful man in the world..

    It's just so simplistic..Are you not capable of a level of abstraction above "well they were a different colour"?..

    And if there wasn't systemic, deep-rooted racism in the US then the black man isn't going to be accused of being born in Kenya, is he?

    Just because the black man got to the top job doesn't mean the racism stopped. Anyone who even tries to suggest otherwise is either deluded or stupid.


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    #2663
    walshb
    Registered Users Posts: 55,529 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    Overheal wrote: »
    I mean your point is if I didn't plug my phone in today I wouldn't be having this conversation.

    It's just not an especially appreciable observation to say had the situation not happened we wouldn't be talking about the situation or how it happened.

    No. I am debating this narrative that people want to claim that Chauvin did what he did because George was black. That he went OTT restraining him because he was black..

    George’s resisting arrest led to the kneeling incident. That is fact.

    Now, Chauvin still went OTT. I get this. But there was no racism in his restraining him.


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    #2664
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Faugheen wrote: »
    And if there wasn't systemic, deep-rooted racism in the US then the black man isn't going to be accused of being born in Kenya, is he?

    Just because the black man got to the top job doesn't mean the racism stopped. Anyone who even tries to suggest otherwise is either deluded or stupid.

    It looks to me like it got considerably worse under him..


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    #2665
    PokeHerKing
    Registered Users Posts: 4,324 ✭✭✭PokeHerKing


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Well, like, if the entire system is set up to keep the black man down, you'd think it would have some mechanism in place to ensure one of them doesn't become the most powerful man in the world..

    It's just so simplistic..Are you not capable of a level of abstraction above "well they were a different colour"?..

    Well the system has been in place for a very long time, back when the black man was in chains working the cotton fields and in no danger of being able to run for president let alone vote for one. Fast forward to a time where they can run and vote amd hey ho the system in place always allowed this but just never thought it would happen.

    But guess what, systemic racism can still exist due to all the other intricacies of society.


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    #2666
    OMM 0000
    Registered Users Posts: 3,733 ✭✭✭OMM 0000


    walshb wrote: »
    Had Floyd not resisted arrest and complied with the cops he would still be alive, because the kneeling incident would never have happened, and more importantly, the racist angle being constantly injected here would not be needed...

    Just an observation..

    Before anyone jumps in. I am not saying his death was his fault..

    George’s color was not a factor in what happened to him.

    You need to understand, the sort of people defending Floyd are actual racists.

    They will tell you they 100% support Affirmative Action.

    What is Affirmative Action? Every black person, regardless of family wealth, doesn't need the same exam scores as whites and Asians as they're not smart enough to compete on a level playing field.

    It's literally woke people admitting they think blacks are less intelligent than everyone else.

    What's amazing is these people are so dumb they think this makes them anti-racist.


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    #2667
    Foxtrol
    Registered Users Posts: 11,136 ✭✭✭✭Foxtrol


    BattleCorp wrote: »
    Once again, proof?

    Again, there is no 'proof' that the majority of the awful RUC interactions had with the Catholic/Republican communities in the north during the troubles had anything to do with their religion or their republicanism.

    I don't see many making your type of pedantic argument though, it is obvious to the dogs on the street the two tier policing that was going on - just like it is in the US today.
    If there was proof that Chauvin knelt on Floyd because he was a racist, don't you think the prosecution might have brought it up as an aggravating factor?

    Why potentially muddy and potentially risk losing a case when it was such a slam dunk? They would be idiots.
    Going forward, will every interaction between a white police officer and a black person be classed as racist? Serious question.

    No one is claiming that, however treating each of these terrible police incidents in a vacuum where there has to be 'proof' of race being a factor seems naïve, at best.


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    #2668
    Faugheen
    Site Banned Posts: 12,341 ✭✭✭✭Faugheen


    Deleted User wrote: »
    It looks to me like it got considerably worse under him..

    Which would completely debunk what you said just a few minutes ago that systemic racism stopped when the US got a black president.

    Well done. You just proved you're a bad faith sh*tposter with minimal effort.


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    #2669
    Overheal
    Registered Users Posts: 82,509 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    walshb wrote: »
    George’s resisting arrest led to the kneeling incident. That is fact.

    Now, Chauvin still went OTT. I get this. But there was no racism in his restraining him.

    A lot of things led to the kneeling incident. George Floyd was one of the persons involved in the kneeling incident. At least a dozen people were, the 911 operator, the shop owner, bystanders, shop customers, police.

    This is about the Trial of Derek Chauvin.
    No. I am debating this narrative that people want to claim that Chauvin did what he did because George was black. That he went OTT restraining him because he was black..

    Yet the argument can be made that's exactly what the defense contextually admits to, when it says that he did what he did not because George was black but because of his excited delirium and superhuman strength etc. which reveal implicit biases.


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    #2670
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Faugheen wrote: »
    Which would completely debunk what you said just a few minutes ago that systemic racism stopped when the US got a black president.

    Well done. You just proved you're a bad faith sh*tposter with minimal effort.

    Well..west Indian immigrants don't have a problem with it.. Asian Americans don't..

    The black community's problems are cultural..


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    #2671
    drkpower
    Registered Users Posts: 5,475 ✭✭✭drkpower


    Overheal wrote: »
    With due respect that's to my reckoning just yet another very narrow, gilded goalpost. Or at the very least you seem to be arguing against something nobody is saying here: George Floyd had the police called to the scene by the store owner. The interaction happened, quite literally because of a 911 call, not because a cop looked at a brown person and pulled them over or whatever. This isn't in dispute. Yet you seem to be framing it as a way to exclude the evidence that the defense cited things like "superhuman strength" and "excited delirium" which have racial context to them, and therefore bring the element of race to this case - which has been denied through soap box vociferously here today yet which is demonstrably true.

    Ah here, ‘excited delirium’ is a known medical condition, and one which the treating medics said was in their differential diagnosis. Being male, young, overweight and African American are known risk factors.

    Was chauvin fatt-ist too?


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