Derek Chauvin murder trial (George Floyd)

Fandymo

Morgans wrote: »

And that's enough justification for killing unarmed black people, cos you know, just in case.

And people have the cheek to call it racist.

Ok, Cathy Newman, the rest of us will discuss/debate things and you can just make up/twist what we’re saying by pre-fixing it “so you’re saying.......”

AudreyHepburn

The correct verdict in my opinion. I don’t think anyone can dispute that Chauvin got what he deserves.

I would question however whether he actually got, and could ever really have gotten, a fair trial. And before anyone jumps down my throat I mean fair only in the sense of facing an unbiased jury. I honestly don’t believe there is a single juror anywhere in the States that wouldn’t have convicted him.

Once again he deserves his punishment, I am not in any way disputing that.

Also is it asking to much of people to stop acting as though George Floyd was a saint or some innocent man minding his own business who was attacked out of nowhere by the big bad cops.

He was far from a saint as evidenced by his criminal record and on the day in question he was clearly on drugs and causing problems for the store staff. They were within their rights to call the police and the police were within their rights to restrain him when he resisted arrest.

Chauvin went over and above restraint though - there is never any need to press your knee into some-ones neck.

Ultimately though only Chauvin truly knows why he did it. My own inkling is it was racially motivated but I doubt we will ever know sure.

walshb

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

The correct verdict in my opinion. I don’t think anyone can dispute that Chauvin got what he deserves.

I would question however whether he actually got, and could ever really have gotten, a fair trial. And before anyone jumps down my throat I mean fair only in the sense of facing an unbiased jury. I honestly don’t believe there is a single juror anywhere in the States that wouldn’t have convicted him.

Once again he deserves his punishment, I am not in any way disputing that.

Also is it asking to much of people to stop acting as though George Floyd was a saint or some innocent man minding his own business who was attacked out of nowhere by the big bad cops.

He was far from a saint as evidenced by his criminal record and on the day in question he was clearly on drugs and causing problems for the store staff. They were within their rights to call the police and the police were within their rights to restrain him when he resisted arrest.

Chauvin went over and above restraint though - there is never any need to press your knee into some-ones neck.

Ultimately though only Chauvin truly knows why he did it. My own inkling is it was racially motivated but I doubt we will ever know sure.

This post makes a lot of sense. Common sense. Balanced.

The racially motivated part, as in, Chauvin kneeling on George like he did because Chauvin is racist? Nobody can know. I think it was not the reason.

I have always felt that had there been no crowd badgering Chauvin and verbally challenging him, that George would be alive.

Chauvin was sticking it to the crowd. He was clearly irked by their temerity in telling him how to do his job..

Before anyone jumps in. The crowd did not kill George. I am proposing that Chauvin’s reaction/response to the crowd was a factor in George dying.

That doesn’t excuse the OTT restraining. It is simply trying to say why he did it..

Circumstances conspired here to come to the end whereby George died.

Chauvin did not set out to end George’s life. A situation occurred, and things happened during it to end in George dying.

MeMen2_MoRi_

Within hours of the video we've all seen George Floyd's criminal history was known, not sure why it has to be repeated and repeated that he wasn't a Saint, who is saying he was.. I haven't read on the thread or the previous threads.

Just like chauvins previous commendations and 19 year service as an officer it's all going to fade into insignificance when you see a 10 minute video of 4 cops not giving a fcuk as a man lays dying and a crowd of bystanders are asking them to help him.

Baggly

mcmoustache wrote: »

How does one become as misinformed about life as you've managed it?


Seriously, that takes some amount of effort. Do you dismiss everything from places with a good track record as fake news in favour of alternate reality media? I wouldn't mind so much but people like yourself, the chronically misinformed, are multiplying. I know we're not supposed to attack the poster here but there has to be some limit on the level of stupidity that we should be expected to tolerate.

Mod

Threadbanned

Boggles

walshb wrote: »

This post makes a lot of sense. Common sense. Balanced.

The racially motivated part, as in, Chauvin kneeling on George like he did because Chauvin is racist? Nobody can know. I think it was not the reason.

I have always felt that had there been no crowd badgering Chauvin and verbally challenging him, that George would be alive.

Chauvin was sticking it to the crowd. He was clearly irked by their temerity in telling him how to do his job..

Before anyone jumps in. The crowd did not kill George. I am proposing that Chauvin’s reaction/response to the crowd was a factor in George dying.

That doesn’t excuse the OTT restraining. It is simply trying to say why he did it..

Circumstances conspired here to come to the end whereby George died.

Chauvin did not set out to end George’s life. A situation occurred, and things happened during it to end in George dying.

So this absolute psychopath tortured and killed another human to "irk" a crowd, but the notion that he could be racist is completely alien?

:pac:

This is absolutely no fúcking doubt he regarded Floyd as "subhuman".

TomSweeney

Yellow_Fern wrote: »

The manuals says to use a variant of the recovery position, which Chauvin did indeed put him on. GF died in this recovery position. The mistake Chauvin made was not checking his pulse and moving him when he became unresponsive. It is also very possible he placed too much pressure on the neck killing him, alternatively it possible he moved to shoulder as GF stopped responding as below and didnt kill him. It is very unclear.

https://twitter.com/louraguse/status/1379171775876055042

Steven Crowder did a pretty cool reconstruction https://youtu.be/5qHLXbVDnkc?t=4681

I like Crowder, I wouldn't agree with him on gun control, pro life and religious issues but he's a good antidote to the woke mob.

MeMen2_MoRi_

walshb wrote: »

This post makes a lot of sense. Common sense. Balanced.

The racially motivated part, as in, Chauvin kneeling on George like he did because Chauvin is racist? Nobody can know. I think it was not the reason.

I have always felt that had there been no crowd badgering Chauvin and verbally challenging him, that George would be alive.

Chauvin was sticking it to the crowd. He was clearly irked by their temerity in telling him how to do his job..

Before anyone jumps in. The crowd did not kill George. I am proposing that Chauvin’s reaction/response to the crowd was a factor in George dying.

That doesn’t excuse the OTT restraining. It is simply trying to say why he did it..

Circumstances conspired here to come to the end whereby George died.

Chauvin did not set out to end George’s life. A situation occurred, and things happened during it to end in George dying.

Can't read his mind for the race part

But we can "read" his mind and what he was thinking about the crowd..

walshb

MeMen2_MoRi_ wrote: »

Can't read his mind for the race part

But we can "read" his mind and what he was thinking about the crowd..

No, we cannot. It is something I feel influenced his reaction/behaviour...

Btw, has Chauvin any verifiable incidents of him displaying racist views, behaviours, attitudes about black people.

If so, then the race angle to his behaviour is definitely something to consider..

ohnonotgmail

walshb wrote: »

No, we cannot. It is something I feel influenced his reaction/behaviour...

what influenced his behaviour is that he thought the person he was killing was subhuman and not worthy of his consideration. That is just something I feel so is every bit as valid as your feeling.

MeMen2_MoRi_

walshb wrote: »

No, we cannot. It is something I feel influenced his reaction/behaviour...

The racial angle can also be true then surely.. you've railed against the idea it was racially motivated because nobody has proof they have just their thoughts and feelings on it just like you.

walshb

MeMen2_MoRi_ wrote: »

The racial angle can also be true then surely.. you've railed against the idea it was racially motivated because nobody has proof they have just their thoughts and feelings on it just like you.

Of course they can..

I simply feel it has not got the vibe/feeling at all for me..

I think the color of George was not the issue.

I reckon Chauvin behaved the same no matter what color was underneath him

I feel his reaction to the crowd was far more a factor in his behaviour compared to the color of the victim.

Morgans

Fandymo wrote: »

Ok, Cathy Newman, the rest of us will discuss/debate things and you can just make up/twist what we’re saying by pre-fixing it “so you’re saying.......”

Sounds good. I'll do that when you stop making points that show up inadvertently the nonsense of what you are saying.

MeMen2_MoRi_

walshb wrote: »

Of course they can..

I simply feel it has not got the vibe/feeling at all for me..

I think the color of George was not the issue.

I reckon Chauvin behaved the same no matter what color was underneath him

I feel his reaction to the crowd was far more a factor in his behaviour compared to the color of the victim.

If I was going on your feelings on things versus people's feelings on it being racial.. I think I'd rather be on the racial side of it. Too some how no matter how small try to place some blame that the bystanders/crowd/witnesses played some role in creating the actions and emotions of chauvin it's some really lower bar thoughts.

When I see the video, I see a man with zero emotions going on.

Edit.. walsh you are seeing a man do actions onto George because of the crowd, is that not more in line with intent to harm and kill him because he was putting it to the crowd.. should the state of went for 1st degree murder

walshb

MeMen2_MoRi_ wrote: »

If I was going on your feelings on things versus people's feelings on it being racial.. I think I'd rather be on the racial side of it. Too some how no matter how small try to place some blame that the bystanders/crowd/witnesses played some role in creating the actions and emotions of chauvin it's some really lower bar thoughts.

When I see the video, I see a man with zero emotions going on.

Edit.. walsh you are seeing a man do actions onto George because of the crowd, is that not more in line with intent to harm and kill him because he was putting it to the crowd.. should the state of went for 1st degree murder

Yes. Good points.

Not sure how they could prove deliberate intent to kill..

Although I feel the crowd influenced Chauvin’s behaviour, to show that Chauvin also then wanted to kill George is not clean cut..

briany

If you're a beat cop long enough, it's pretty much guaranteed that you'll have made arrests where bystanders are giving you hassle/abuse. Now, if that hassle is physical, obviously that would necessitate a modified response because you've now to deal with more than one threat. But if that hassle was only of a verbal nature, you have to be able to put that aside and carry on with the arrest.

The bystanders in the case of George Floyd did not physically assault Chauvin in any way, so even if the idea that Chauvin's behaviour was in reaction to the crowd, it only makes him look the more unprofessional.

Mellor

walshb wrote: »

Chauvin was sticking it to the crowd. He was clearly irked by their temerity in telling him how to do his job.

I don’t disagree with that.
The crowd were telling him how to do his job, he clearly didn’t like that. The fact they were correct, and he knew they were right (from his training) became irrelevant. His ego took over, and he decided to stick it to them and flex.

However, the fact he took that risk with Floyd’s well-being was not only reckless, which satisfies the manslaughter charge, it also showed a blatant disregard for the life of another, which elevates it to murder.

Chauvin did not set out to end George’s life. A situation occurred, and things happened during it to end in George dying.

I also agree he didn’t set out to kill him at start or any point.

Mellor

walshb wrote: »

I think the color of George was not the issue.

I reckon Chauvin behaved the same no matter what color was underneath him.

Ok. Let’s say that’s true.
Does that affect his crime, or his guilt?


None of the charges involve racism. Nether the motivation nor the crime.
The fact is he causes the death of another. Their race isn’t part of that crime.

walshb

Mellor wrote: »

Ok. Let’s say that’s true.
Does that affect his crime, or his guilt?


None of the charges involve racism. Nether the motivation nor the crime.
The fact is he causes the death of another. Their race isn’t part of that crime.

Agreed..

He deserves to be held accountable for his actions that day.

osarusan

Mellor wrote: »

Ok. Let’s say that’s true.
Does that affect his crime, or his guilt?

None of the charges involve racism. Nether the motivation nor the crime.
The fact is he causes the death of another. Their race isn’t part of that crime.

This is all true, but the theme of a racist element to the crime has been introduced to the thread in the last 36 hours or so (now that the verdict is in and there's not much to talk about in that sense, the thread has changed completely).

In my case, I haven't been convinced at all by the posts I've seen that there is a racial aspect to it, or to the defence of it.

Within the wider context of American policing and the history of the black community in America, the case being viewed through that wider lens of race-relations was inevitable, but in terms of what happened on the day itself, I don't see the argument that race was obviously a factor.

The same kind of thing could happen, and has happened (Tony Timpa) to non-black victims also.

Retr0gamer

osarusan wrote: »

This is all true, but the theme of a racist element to the crime has been introduced to the thread in the last 36 hours or so (now that the verdict is in and there's not much to talk about in that sense, the thread has changed completely).

In my case, I haven't been convinced at all by the posts I've seen that there is a racial aspect to it, or to the defence of it.

Within the wider context of American policing and the history of the black community in America, the case being viewed through that wider lens of race-relations was inevitable, but in terms of what happened on the day itself, I don't see the argument that race was obviously a factor.

The same kind of thing could happen, and has happened (Tony Timpa) to non-black victims also.

Doesn't matter of he might have done the same to a white person. That's a strawman argument. The fact is he did what he did and this unfortunately common occurence would most likely have been met with a slap on the wrist for the police officers and they would not have been affected in anyway.

The outcry was to not let police officers away with murdering black people and getting away with it. At the end of the day the outcome for chauvin was the correct one but without the blm movement and bystanders filming what happened there is a very real possibility that these police officers would have gotten with what is a murder, or manslaughter at the very best, with no repercussions.

Yellow_Fern

Retr0gamer wrote: »

Doesn't matter of he might have done the same to a white person. That's a strawman argument. The fact is he did what he did and this unfortunately common occurence would most likely have been met with a slap on the wrist for the police officers and they would not have been affected in anyway.

The outcry was to not let police officers away with murdering black people and getting away with it. At the end of the day the outcome for chauvin was the correct one but without the blm movement and bystanders filming what happened there is a very real possibility that these police officers would have gotten with what is a murder, or manslaughter at the very best, with no repercussions.

If you are saying that the outcome of the trial arose due to the outcry you are saying that there was jury tampering, ie. mob justice. That isn't how it is supposed to work and gives grounds for an appeal.

Potatoeman

Once he was in handcuffs and arrested he was in police custody so they had a duty of care for his safety. Kneeling on someone’s neck while in cuffs is gross negligence at least up to outright murder.

It’s a mistake to link every other case to this as some of the other cases are not nearly as clean cut.

OMM 0000

Potatoeman wrote: »

Once he was in handcuffs and arrested he was in police custody so they had a duty of care for his safety. Kneeling on someone’s neck while in cuffs is gross negligence at least up to outright murder.

It’s a mistake to link every other case to this as some of the other cases are not nearly as clean cut.

I think everyone agrees the kneeling was wrong.

But there is no physical evidence he was choked to death. There is however evidence he had three times the fatal dose of fentanyl in his body and already had breathing problems before any kneeling started.

So I think a fair outcome is the manslaughter charge (criminal negligence) but I think a fair person would accept it is likely he was going to die anyway (three times the fatal dose of fentanyl).

There was no way he was going to get a fair trial.

Yellow_Fern

Yellow_Fern wrote: »

If you are saying that the outcome of the trial arose due to the outcry you are saying that there was jury tampering, ie. mob justice. That isn't how it is supposed to work and gives grounds for an appeal.

I think his point is more that it may have been buried or never have gone to trial.

Retr0gamer

Yellow_Fern wrote: »

If you are saying that the outcome of the trial arose due to the outcry you are saying that there was jury tampering, ie. mob justice. That isn't how it is supposed to work and gives grounds for an appeal.

I'm not though. But thanks for another textbook strawman example.

Retr0gamer

OMM 0000 wrote: »

I think everyone agrees the kneeling was wrong.

But there is no physical evidence he was choked to death. There is however evidence he had three times the fatal dose of fentanyl in his body and already had breathing problems before any kneeling started.

So I think a fair outcome is the manslaughter charge (criminal negligence) but I think a fair person would accept it is likely he was going to die anyway (three times the fatal dose of fentanyl).

There was no way he was going to get a fair trial.

Total lies. Medical reports and experts show that the the cause of death was asphyxiation. That's a fact. It's also based on a physical and medical examination. Therefore physical evidence.

And the level of fetanyl wasn't even close to fatal:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.usatoday.com/amp/7239448002

Try again using facts and not right wing confirmation bias.

OMM 0000

Retr0gamer wrote: »

Total lies. Medical reports and experts show that the the cause of death was asphyxiation. That's a fact. It's also based on a physical and medical examination. Therefore physical evidence.

And the level of fetanyl wasn't even close to fatal:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.usatoday.com/amp/7239448002

Try again using facts and not right wing confirmation bias.

You shouldn't be so aggressive when you don't know what you're talking about. You're just making a fool of yourself.

1. Asphyxiation is a symptom of fentanyl overdose. https://mayoclinic.pure.elsevier.com/en/publications/asphyxiation-with-a-fentanyl-patch

2. The medical examiners admitted there was no evidence of asphyxiation due to choking.

3. Did you even read the article you linked to? It says he had 11 nanograms per millilitre of fentanyl in his system. Looking at the data (https://watermark.silverchair.com/bks005.pdf?token=AQECAHi208BE49Ooan9kkhW_Ercy7Dm3ZL_9Cf3qfKAc485ysgAAApgwggKUBgkqhkiG9w0BBwagggKFMIICgQIBADCCAnoGCSqGSIb3DQEHATAeBglghkgBZQMEAS4wEQQMSCWIr5zUbtacdAGaAgEQgIICS8aaTezYsrdD9S6Ifgv-TVuzdWCXkesLQatYShFGr7kAuU5hBQY8EAl_Af-yFyqm1jMWC3CfXqKkWpBCtrrff7CmlJrzeLXvg4lDvJSTr__wXaGs0ZlJsjf4ywPx5WYpjbkrC5MlzOS7GUZ9oPCzOs3rnwdAftYab-OXccN0I9hnJgl_V3eHbPI_rkBsVGi7a9OjgdR4v8uKC6lbBwu4ZraMpzo68JEZT5UVFJeNlgIj2j3IGhAmwRnCiwwj70LBdlrINHg8nrWOW4nWj8EeFrxGesQT0LSg5--xpuG-mkEHstv5hp88GSYgInTrCIjQRKCOwnLf9DhHVQaKjJ_mamvR1NlG1NJAOvvt_SNbDgvod74kO_a5GSpvYdAv99E9HCRZMWE7vmy7dp0g2l6Oa13TW9TgUg-22HiL2O7b65ABhW0W7TIQCc0Gv_pZZ5RIUFlMUlu9exP-ZRkrtZzqPeJv8yXRvuSISmVJgMOnoz9pxtcs-4_HsFoQYADJo66sAvcoiRj0a6TnX-BHSuX-1-A32B_vN9xkY3e4Q2fCA9j676bEd2S6SdorvUaw6ytXcT-1m_Tc_t6GVpahNFT5PpUGonvPEZqsUsgkpMAu1Rj4iqT94OkNgUmtBbScFkO9vKBA2crbmPRxLfmaW9ohaEbCBur10EerInSwsX27oVnIYSSrLDjqs6Da8te92fSD3oC8_xJIGWirOgiXJefijW7Hr1FyP_9-pWMOtSMHIHTerNnGLAUNyh_gXoOWwbWOX0mDh0AhRLYsJnOb) we can see if 100 people took this dose, over 95% of them would die, and most would die with less than half this amount.

Here's some advice: start looking at the data, you'll have a better understanding of things.

Mic 1972

OMM 0000 wrote: »

I think everyone agrees the kneeling was wrong.

But there is no physical evidence he was choked to death. There is however evidence he had three times the fatal dose of fentanyl in his body and already had breathing problems before any kneeling started.

So I think a fair outcome is the manslaughter charge (criminal negligence) but I think a fair person would accept it is likely he was going to die anyway (three times the fatal dose of fentanyl).

There was no way he was going to get a fair trial.

Derek Chauvin was made an example of, to further the systemic racist narrative that have proven so successful for democrats so far.
This was not a racist murder and George Floyd was going to die regardless

ohnonotgmail

Mic 1972 wrote: »

Derek Chauvin was made an example of, to further the systemic racist narrative that have proven so successful for democrats so far.
This was not a racist murder and George Floyd was going to die regardless

we are all going to die regardless. Preferably without a police officer kneeling on our neck for 9 minutes.