Derek Chauvin murder trial (George Floyd)

MeMen2_MoRi_

OMM 0000 wrote: »

You shouldn't be so aggressive when you don't know what you're talking about. You're just making a fool of yourself.

1. Asphyxiation is a symptom of fentanyl overdose. https://mayoclinic.pure.elsevier.com/en/publications/asphyxiation-with-a-fentanyl-patch

2. The medical examiners admitted there was no evidence of asphyxiation due to choking.

3. Did you even read the article you linked to? It says he had 11 nanograms per millilitre of fentanyl in his system. Looking at the data (https://watermark.silverchair.com/bks005.pdf?token=AQECAHi208BE49Ooan9kkhW_Ercy7Dm3ZL_9Cf3qfKAc485ysgAAApgwggKUBgkqhkiG9w0BBwagggKFMIICgQIBADCCAnoGCSqGSIb3DQEHATAeBglghkgBZQMEAS4wEQQMSCWIr5zUbtacdAGaAgEQgIICS8aaTezYsrdD9S6Ifgv-TVuzdWCXkesLQatYShFGr7kAuU5hBQY8EAl_Af-yFyqm1jMWC3CfXqKkWpBCtrrff7CmlJrzeLXvg4lDvJSTr__wXaGs0ZlJsjf4ywPx5WYpjbkrC5MlzOS7GUZ9oPCzOs3rnwdAftYab-OXccN0I9hnJgl_V3eHbPI_rkBsVGi7a9OjgdR4v8uKC6lbBwu4ZraMpzo68JEZT5UVFJeNlgIj2j3IGhAmwRnCiwwj70LBdlrINHg8nrWOW4nWj8EeFrxGesQT0LSg5--xpuG-mkEHstv5hp88GSYgInTrCIjQRKCOwnLf9DhHVQaKjJ_mamvR1NlG1NJAOvvt_SNbDgvod74kO_a5GSpvYdAv99E9HCRZMWE7vmy7dp0g2l6Oa13TW9TgUg-22HiL2O7b65ABhW0W7TIQCc0Gv_pZZ5RIUFlMUlu9exP-ZRkrtZzqPeJv8yXRvuSISmVJgMOnoz9pxtcs-4_HsFoQYADJo66sAvcoiRj0a6TnX-BHSuX-1-A32B_vN9xkY3e4Q2fCA9j676bEd2S6SdorvUaw6ytXcT-1m_Tc_t6GVpahNFT5PpUGonvPEZqsUsgkpMAu1Rj4iqT94OkNgUmtBbScFkO9vKBA2crbmPRxLfmaW9ohaEbCBur10EerInSwsX27oVnIYSSrLDjqs6Da8te92fSD3oC8_xJIGWirOgiXJefijW7Hr1FyP_9-pWMOtSMHIHTerNnGLAUNyh_gXoOWwbWOX0mDh0AhRLYsJnOb) we can see if 100 people took this dose, over 95% of them would die, and most would die with less than half this amount.

Here's some advice: start looking at the data, you'll have a better understanding of things.

Should also be noted that dying from asphyxiation leaves no "finger print" in autopsy as was testified.

Data can be used and abused, from my own experience of using drugs. I built up a tolerance to the point were I was using double to get the normal high coming to the end of my time using drugs.

OMM 0000

MeMen2_MoRi_ wrote: »

Should also be noted that dying from asphyxiation leaves no "finger print" in autopsy as was testified.

Data can be used and abused, from my own experience of using drugs. I built up a tolerance to the point were I was using double to get the normal high coming to the end of my time using drugs.

Yes but choking leaves a mark.

Would you agree from watching the video that Floyd appeared to be in trouble (potentially overdosing... hence his repeated claims that he can't breath) when he was arrested?

Many people here are acting like he was perfectly healthy and then a racist police officer decided to choke him to death.

Yellow_Fern

OMM 0000 wrote: »

You shouldn't be so aggressive when you don't know what you're talking about. You're just making a fool of yourself.

1. Asphyxiation is a symptom of fentanyl overdose. https://mayoclinic.pure.elsevier.com/en/publications/asphyxiation-with-a-fentanyl-patch

2. The medical examiners admitted there was no evidence of asphyxiation due to choking.

3. Did you even read the article you linked to? It says he had 11 nanograms per millilitre of fentanyl in his system. Looking at the data (https://watermark.silverchair.com/bks005.pdf?

Can you provide a full citation as I cant get the link working.

Retr0gamer

OMM 0000 wrote: »

You shouldn't be so aggressive when you don't know what you're talking about. You're just making a fool of yourself.

1. Asphyxiation is a symptom of fentanyl overdose. https://mayoclinic.pure.elsevier.com/en/publications/asphyxiation-with-a-fentanyl-patch

2. The medical examiners admitted there was no evidence of asphyxiation due to choking.

3. Did you even read the article you linked to? It says he had 11 nanograms per millilitre of fentanyl in his system. Looking at the data (https://watermark.silverchair.com/bks005.pdf?token=AQECAHi208BE49Ooan9kkhW_Ercy7Dm3ZL_9Cf3qfKAc485ysgAAApgwggKUBgkqhkiG9w0BBwagggKFMIICgQIBADCCAnoGCSqGSIb3DQEHATAeBglghkgBZQMEAS4wEQQMSCWIr5zUbtacdAGaAgEQgIICS8aaTezYsrdD9S6Ifgv-TVuzdWCXkesLQatYShFGr7kAuU5hBQY8EAl_Af-yFyqm1jMWC3CfXqKkWpBCtrrff7CmlJrzeLXvg4lDvJSTr__wXaGs0ZlJsjf4ywPx5WYpjbkrC5MlzOS7GUZ9oPCzOs3rnwdAftYab-OXccN0I9hnJgl_V3eHbPI_rkBsVGi7a9OjgdR4v8uKC6lbBwu4ZraMpzo68JEZT5UVFJeNlgIj2j3IGhAmwRnCiwwj70LBdlrINHg8nrWOW4nWj8EeFrxGesQT0LSg5--xpuG-mkEHstv5hp88GSYgInTrCIjQRKCOwnLf9DhHVQaKjJ_mamvR1NlG1NJAOvvt_SNbDgvod74kO_a5GSpvYdAv99E9HCRZMWE7vmy7dp0g2l6Oa13TW9TgUg-22HiL2O7b65ABhW0W7TIQCc0Gv_pZZ5RIUFlMUlu9exP-ZRkrtZzqPeJv8yXRvuSISmVJgMOnoz9pxtcs-4_HsFoQYADJo66sAvcoiRj0a6TnX-BHSuX-1-A32B_vN9xkY3e4Q2fCA9j676bEd2S6SdorvUaw6ytXcT-1m_Tc_t6GVpahNFT5PpUGonvPEZqsUsgkpMAu1Rj4iqT94OkNgUmtBbScFkO9vKBA2crbmPRxLfmaW9ohaEbCBur10EerInSwsX27oVnIYSSrLDjqs6Da8te92fSD3oC8_xJIGWirOgiXJefijW7Hr1FyP_9-pWMOtSMHIHTerNnGLAUNyh_gXoOWwbWOX0mDh0AhRLYsJnOb) we can see if 100 people took this dose, over 95% of them would die, and most would die with less than half this amount.

Here's some advice: start looking at the data, you'll have a better understanding of things.

Some advice for you: Don't argue about things you don't know understand. Because like at the moment you might be arguing about pharmaceuticals with someone with a doctorate in pharmaceuticals.

There's only one fool here and that's the person cherrypicking information they don't fully understand to suit their agenda.

Retr0gamer

MeMen2_MoRi_ wrote: »

Should also be noted that dying from asphyxiation leaves no "finger print" in autopsy as was testified.

Data can be used and abused, from my own experience of using drugs. I built up a tolerance to the point were I was using double to get the normal high coming to the end of my time using drugs.

Asphyxiation from drugs might leave no fingerprint, but a knee on the neck for 8 minutes leaves bruises, internal bleeding and telltale signs like blood clots and blood vessel ruptures in the eyes.

OMM 0000

Yellow_Fern wrote: »

Can you provide a full citation as I cant get the link working.

If you google "fentanyl overdose nanogram oxford" it's the second link.

Penn

MeMen2_MoRi_ wrote: »

Data can be used and abused, from my own experience of using drugs. I built up a tolerance to the point were I was using double to get the normal high coming to the end of my time using drugs.

Which is why a lot of addicts overdose after rehab if they start taking drugs again. They go back onto the same amount of drugs they'd previously been on, but their tolerance for same had dropped, so that same amount has become a fatal level.

A fatal level for the average person wouldn't necessarily be a fatal level for George Floyd who regularly took drugs and therefore had a different tolerance.

OMM 0000

Retr0gamer wrote: »

Some advice for you: Don't argue about things you don't know understand. Because like at the moment you might be arguing about pharmaceuticals with someone with a doctorate in pharmaceuticals.

There's only one fool here and that's the person cherrypicking information they don't fully understand to suit their agenda.

That's just beyond pathetic.

I provide a link to a paper in the Journal of Analytical Toxicology showing the fentanyl overdose amounts and your response is to pretend you know more than everyone and insult me.

Jesus... maybe get some fresh air.

MeMen2_MoRi_

OMM 0000 wrote: »

Yes but choking leaves a mark.

Would you agree from watching the video that Floyd appeared to be in trouble (potentially overdosing... hence his repeated claims that he can't breath) when he was arrested?

Many people here are acting like he was perfectly healthy and then a racist police officer decided to choke him to death.

He wasn't choked (hands around the neck) it was the slow reducing of sufficient air getting into his lungs that killed him..

No I wouldn't agree, everyone doesn't want to hear the words George spoke that day. Why, because we all know his violent criminal past so we don't give a crap about him. We just want to excuse away the responsibility that chauvin and the other 3 have on the out come of that situation..

George could of been suffering a panic attack (if you haven't suffered from this, they suck).

OMM 0000

correct horse battery staple wrote: »

Are you one of the 2 people who signed off on the autopsy of this poor man?

What do you have to gain by arguing on a rare sunny Irish afternoon about a now convicted murderer??

One very sad thing this thread has shown is that there is a scary amount of racists and Trump lovers in Ireland (assuming these people are not paid trolls in St Petersburg somewhere), there must be no room left in the rotten woodwork

Someone here needs to provide facts and data. There's too many people who are ignoring reality. I don't understand why, what do they gain from creating a fake reality. Even you're doing this, pretending this thread is full of racists.

Yellow_Fern

Message for Moscow, I would be delighted to receive payments for my posting here. PM me.

Retr0gamer

OMM 0000 wrote: »

That's just beyond pathetic.

I provide a link to a paper in the Journal of Analytical Toxicology showing the fentanyl overdose amounts and your response is to pretend you know more than everyone and insult me.

Jesus... maybe get some fresh air.

I very much doubt you've read it yourself as you need access to academic journals to read it the full text. Good thing I have. To summarize, at the levels in his blood it would be well below the dose to give an anaesthesia effect let alone be lethal.

Lower levels of fentanyl have lead to death but only in cases which involved a serious cocktail of other drugs.

walshb

On RTE now trying to link and compare the racist murder of Stephen Lawrence by racist thugs in England to George Floyd’s death...

Retr0gamer

OMM 0000 wrote: »

Someone here needs to provide facts and data. There's too many people who are ignoring reality. I don't understand why, what do they gain from creating a fake reality. Even you're doing this, pretending this thread is full of racists.

Lay off the confirmation bias then. I'll take the opinion of the medical experts over you and your degree in google-fu.

MeMen2_MoRi_

Retr0gamer wrote: »

Asphyxiation from drugs might leave no fingerprint, but a knee on the neck for 8 minutes leaves bruises, internal bleeding and telltale signs like blood clots and blood vessel ruptures in the eyes.

Not talking about the drugs.. the use of the knee, the position of the body, position of the hand.. all of these factors caused the asphyxiation

walshb

Dobbo has a lawyer on claiming institutional and systemic racism in Britain.

Dobbo, do you think he’d challenge him, ask him for examples, proof, reasons? Even to give the listeners an idea on this.

No, no...away you go there unchallenged..

OMM 0000

Retr0gamer wrote: »

I very much doubt you've read it yourself as you need access to academic journals to read it the full text. Good thing I have. To summarize, at the levels in his blood it would be well below the dose to give an anaesthesia effect let alone be lethal.

Lower levels of fentanyl have lead to death but only in cases which involved a serious cocktail of other drugs.

Stop lying, it's all in the journal. They literally give a table of median and mean values.

OMM 0000

Retr0gamer wrote: »

Lay off the confirmation bias then. I'll take the opinion of the medical experts over you and your degree in google-fu.

I have a PhD. Look at my post history.

Foxtrol

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

The correct verdict in my opinion. I don’t think anyone can dispute that Chauvin got what he deserves.

I would question however whether he actually got, and could ever really have gotten, a fair trial. And before anyone jumps down my throat I mean fair only in the sense of facing an unbiased jury. I honestly don’t believe there is a single juror anywhere in the States that wouldn’t have convicted him.

Have you read this thread of Irish people saying they wouldn't have convicted him, there is a big group in the US that are even more blinkered.

Once again he deserves his punishment, I am not in any way disputing that.

Also is it asking to much of people to stop acting as though George Floyd was a saint or some innocent man minding his own business who was attacked out of nowhere by the big bad cops.

He was far from a saint as evidenced by his criminal record and on the day in question he was clearly on drugs and causing problems for the store staff. They were within their rights to call the police and the police were within their rights to restrain him when he resisted arrest.

Chauvin went over and above restraint though - there is never any need to press your knee into some-ones neck.

Ultimately though only Chauvin truly knows why he did it. My own inkling is it was racially motivated but I doubt we will ever know sure.

What has the victims past got to do with it? The alleged crime in this instance was using a forged $20 bill.

If you want to talk about relevant history, how about Chauvin's long documented history of violence against civilians and the obvious history of cover ups by his fellow cops, including this murder. They all have blood on their hands.

BattleCorp

Foxtrol wrote: »

If you want to talk about relevant history, how about Chauvin's long documented history of violence against civilians and the obvious history of cover ups by his fellow cops, including this murder. They all have blood on their hands.

Can you tell me what cops tried to cover up the George Floyd murder?

MeMen2_MoRi_

BattleCorp wrote: »

Can you tell me what cops tried to cover up the George Floyd murder?

Official MPD statement at the time..

https://twitter.com/kenklippenstein/status/1384662563808497667?s=19

When they were receiving/received calls about the cops actions they still thought it a good idea to release that

BattleCorp

MeMen2_MoRi_ wrote: »

Official MPD statement at the time..

https://twitter.com/kenklippenstein/status/1384662563808497667?s=19

When they were receiving/received calls about the cops actions they still thought it a good idea to release that

Thanks for that.

Retr0gamer

OMM 0000 wrote: »

Stop lying, it's all in the journal. They literally give a table of median and mean values.

Think you need to check your figures again.

OMM 0000 wrote: »

I have a PhD. Look at my post history.

Hopefully not in the pharma/science or medical field.

OMM 0000

Retr0gamer wrote: »

Think you need to check your figures again.

Instead of all this constant innuendo why you don't point out which bit is wrong?

Page 186 of the paper I linked to shows the mean and median of fentanyl overdosing dosage.

Are you saying the authors of the paper are lying?

Why can't you provide any numbers?

I think we all know you're just doing that stupid thing where you can't admit you're wrong, so you're just going to keep insulting me over and over in the hope I give up and you "win". And you're a moderator. Holy cow.

Mellor

OMM 0000 wrote: »

But there is no physical evidence he was choked to death.

You mean other than his cardio pulmonary system failing?

There is however evidence he had three times the fatal dose of fentanyl in his body and already had breathing problems before any kneeling started.
.

Except he didn’t have 3 times a fatal dose.
The dose he had (11ng) was in range used for anaesthesia (10-20ng). A fatal dose could be multiple times that.

Mellor

OMM 0000 wrote: »

Yes but choking leaves a mark.

No it doesn’t.
This idea of no bruises means he couldn’t have been choked is fantasy.

OMM 0000

Mellor wrote: »

You mean other than his cardio pulmonary system failing?

Which is what happens when you have a fentanyl overdose.

Mellor wrote: »

Except he didn’t have 3 times a fatal dose.
The dose he had (11ng) was in range used for anaesthesia (10-20ng). A fatal dose could be multiple times that.

You're misunderstanding blood sample concentration with dosage.

It's normal to receive far more than 10 - 20 nanograms as medicine, but a blood sample concentration of 11 nanograms is extremely high, and would kill more than 95% of people, even half that would kill most people.

I've already linked to a paper showing these numbers.

OMM 0000

Mellor wrote: »

No it doesn’t.
This idea of no bruises means he couldn’t have been choked is fantasy.

I'm not just talking about bruising.

Did you even watch any of the trial?

You keep saying incorrect things. Perhaps stop having such strong opinions on things you don't understand.

MeMen2_MoRi_

OMM 0000 wrote: »

Which is what happens when you have a fentanyl overdose.



You're misunderstanding blood sample concentration with dosage.

It's normal to receive far more than 10 - 20 nanograms as medicine, but a blood sample concentration of 11 nanograms is extremely high, and would kill more than 95% of people, even half that would kill most people.

I've already linked to a paper showing these numbers.

Fentanyl overdose comes about from slowing the breathing and putting the person into a state of coma.. all testimonies in court from the experts they seen no evidence of an overdose occuring (even Fowler couldn't couldn't say it was an overdose).

Mellor

OMM 0000 wrote: »

You're misunderstanding blood sample concentration with dosage.

It's normal to receive far more than 10 - 20 nanograms as medicine, but a blood sample concentration of 11 nanograms is extremely high, and would kill more than 95% of people, even half that would kill most people.

I've already linked to a paper showing these numbers.

No I’m not mixing them up. They are different units. mg and ng/ml

A fatal dose as administered, is 2-3mg. That’s 2,000,000 - 3,000,000ng. You are off by 5 orders of magnitude.
10-20ng/ml is an anaesthetic dose in a clinical setting.. I’ve posted this previously.

You didn’t link to a paper. Post posted a dead link. Feel free to repost.
I googled the phrase you said and went to the second link.

The average and median femoral blood concentration of fentanyl was 18 and 20 ng/mL (range: <1–45 ng/mL), and morphine 140 and 80 ng/mL (range: 20–400 ng/mL), respectively.

Median value fir overdose was 20, some as high as 45ng/ml.
But the key part, that you aren’t grasping. If that they all died from heroin laced with fentanyl. So in addition they had up to 400ng/ml of morphine. It’s the combine effect that kills that.

OMM 0000 wrote: »

I'm not just talking about bruising.

You said bruising before and above.

What else are you talking about? Because I guarantee you spouting more nonsense.

You keep saying incorrect things. Perhaps stop having such strong opinions on things you don't understand.

Lol. Nice deflection attempt. Pointing out your lies is not saying incorrect things. That’s all your contributed to the thread.