Do you have to be ethnically Irish to be considered Irish?

joe40

Rodin wrote: »

You'd be a bit of both.. You'd have Irish heritage.

How could I be a bit English if my parents were Irish?
If I had Irish parents born and reared in England, then had children, would they be "ethnically" (whatever that means) English or Irish.

joe40

RobAMerc wrote: »

I was born in Ireland to non natively Irish parents. I never learned their language, I never really visit the country, I consider myself Irish through and through, I support our teams, and speak Irish to a fairly competent level. But to some I will never be considered Irish - as long as I have lived I am a foreigner to them. Funny thing is, to many of the same folks, I could be born in England with an Irish granny, have never stepped foot in the country - but if I played soccer for Ireland, they would die in a bar fight defending my Irishness.

So to answer the question - Yes. The sad thing is, once you or your predecessors leave their homeland them and you are forever an 'other' in both their original and new home.

You're Irish, simple as that.

You may choose to identify with your Parents Country also that is up to you.

This notion of heritage or ethnicity is nonsense.

Rodin

joe40 wrote: »

How could I be a bit English if my parents were Irish?
If I had Irish parents born and reared in England, then had children, would they be "ethnically" (whatever that means) English or Irish.

You'd be from Irish parents but born and reared in England. It's not as simple as 1/2 or 1/4 Irish .


My family are Irish as far as we know.
Do I consider someone who moves here as a child/teenager from Africa to be the same Irish as me? No I don't and Im sorry if people don't like it.

If I moved with a white Irish child to Nigeria, that child would never be Nigerian to me and I would never be Nigerian no matter how long I was there.

ExMachina1000

I hold duel citizenship Ireland and Australia. I recieved Australian citizenship and passport as I live there for 7 years . Sponsorship- permanent residency- citizenship. I am not Australian. Nothing about me , my history etc is Australian.
I'm Irish.

A piece of paper doesn't change the fact just because I lived there for a while

begbysback

It depends on how good a footballer they are.


Actually in the current climate it just depends if they have a pair of football boots.

Rodin

ExMachina1000 wrote: »

I hold duel citizenship Ireland and Australia. I recieved Australian citizenship and passport as I live there for 7 years . Sponsorship- permanent residency- citizenship. I am not Australian. Nothing about me , my history etc is Australian.
I'm Irish.

A piece of paper doesn't change the fact just because I lived there for a while

Im always very suspicious of anybody shouting from the rooftops about their new nationality wnen they get a passport after 5 years.
No real football fan even changes their club never mind their nationality.

joe40

Rodin wrote: »

You'd be from Irish parents but born and reared in England. It's not as simple as 1/2 or 1/4 Irish .


My family are Irish as far as we know.
Do I consider someone who moves here as a child/teenager from Africa to be the same Irish as me? No I don't and Im sorry if people don't like it.

If I moved with a white Irish child to Nigeria, that child would never be Nigerian to me and I would never be Nigerian no matter how long I was there.

What if that person moves and has children here. Are the kids Irish?

Hamachi

joe40 wrote: »

This notion of heritage or ethnicity is nonsense.

Why? Because you say so? Who are you to make that determination?

For the record, I agree that poster is Irish. However, for you to dismiss concepts like heritage and ethnicity, reveals astounding levels of ignorance, particularly from someone who claims to be an educator.

begbysback

joe40 wrote: »

I was Born in London to Irish parents. Moved here when I was two.
Am I Irish?
If my parents had remained in England, would I be English?

I’ve no idea if you are then considered Irish or English, but I am very impressed by your independence at two years of age having left your parents in England.

Rodin

joe40 wrote: »

What if that person moves and has children here. Are the kids Irish?

The kid would have nothing but Irish in their heritage.
They'd only have lived in Nigeria.

There's no formula.

Rodin

begbysback wrote: »

I’ve no idea if you are then considered Irish or English, but I am very impressed by your independence at two years of age having left your parents in England.

That'll be the Irish side...

ExMachina1000

Rodin wrote: »

Im always very suspicious of anybody shouting from the rooftops about their new nationality wnen they get a passport after 5 years.
No real football fan even changes their club never mind their nationality.

The country is 95% empty over there. They rely on large scale immigration to constantly grow the economy. Apparently the after effects of covid lockdowns which put immigration to a halt is going to affect the Australian economy and society hugely in the long term.

But anyway , I'm not shouting about anything The passport is in the bottom of a drawer somewhere.

Hamachi

ExMachina1000 wrote: »

A piece of paper doesn't change the fact just because I lived there for a while

Tend to agree with this. I lived in another country for a decade. Now I never took out citizenship but was well embedded there.

Not for one second did I ever consider myself a native of that country. If I ever described myself as such, the locals would have looked at me as if I had ten heads.

And rightly so.

Rodin

ExMachina1000 wrote: »

The country is 95% empty over there. They rely on large scale immigration to constantly grow the economy. Apparently the after effects of covid lockdowns which put immigration to a halt is going to affect the Australian economy and society hugely in the long term.

But anyway , I'm not shouting about anything The passport is in the bottom of a drawer somewhere.

Im talking about people who come here eulogising being Irish after 5 years.

I agree with you that an Aussie passport doesn't make you Australian... then again what it means to to be Australian is a different debate altogether...

Rodin

Hamachi wrote: »

Tend to agree with this. I lived in another country for a decade. Now I never took out citizenship but was well embedded there.

Not for one second did I ever consider myself a native of that country. If I ever described myself as such, the locals would have looked at me as if I had ten heads.

And rightly so.

People think themselves Irish having spent half that time here.

Hamachi

Rodin wrote: »

People think themselves Irish having spent half that time here.

Like who?

I know several people here for 20 years who wouldn’t even vaguely consider themselves Irish.

ExMachina1000

Rodin wrote: »

Im talking about people who come here eulogising being Irish after 5 years.

I agree with you that an Aussie passport doesn't make you Australian... then again what it means to to be Australian is a different debate altogether...

Apologies I picked you up wrong.

joe40

Rodin wrote: »

Im talking about people who come here eulogising being Irish after 5 years.

I agree with you that an Aussie passport doesn't make you Australian... then again what it means to to be Australian is a different debate altogether...

This thread isn't about that. It was started because of the story about David Lanny an English MP (born in England) who was told he was not ethnically English.
I agree with you if I move to another country, say England, I would still be Irish. However kids born and reared there would be English.

SimonTemplar

Lammy was born and raised in London. Of course he is English. The caller to that show is just a bigot.

joe40

Hamachi wrote: »

Why? Because you say so? Who are you to make that determination?

For the record, I agree that poster is Irish. However, for you to dismiss concepts like heritage and ethnicity, reveals astounding levels of ignorance, particularly from someone who claims to be an educator.

On reflection saying heritage and ethnicity was nonsense was ott.
I'm proud of my Irish heritage.
I do think though the whole notion can be overstated though.
Someone born here, who identifies as Irish is as Irish as I am.

ExMachina1000

joe40 wrote: »

This thread isn't about that. It was started because of the story about David Lanny an English MP (born in England) who was told he was not ethnically English.
I agree with you if I move to another country, say England, I would still be Irish. However kids born and reared there would be English.

Well he isnt ethnically English. If I think what do ethnically English people look like my mind thinks historically. A white protestant.

Just like if I was asked about the ethnicity of someone from Saudi Arabia my mind pictures an Arab muslim.

Or an ethnically Chinese person my mind gives an image of someone with Asian features.

I dont see a white person as an ethnicity of Saudi Arabia or a black person as ethnicity Chinese

It doesn't really add up. Maybe in ten generations time but not now.
He is definitely English but not ethnically English

Seems to be only in the west that these changes are taking place

SharpshooterTom

joe40 wrote: »

There are plenty of English people who have Irish parents.
Plenty see themselves as English first.

I have cousins from Scotland whose parents were both Irish. They visit here often but would consider themselves scottish first and foremost.

There are plenty of Scottish people (certainly Scottish unionists/loyalists, Rangers fans and the like) who certainly wouldn't though. Go to any Rangers online forum and lot of them wont consider people of Irish catholic origin to be properly Scottish, that problem appears to be much worse than in England so I'm actually glad I wasn't born and raised there.

SharpshooterTom

Hamachi wrote: »

Tend to agree with this. I lived in another country for a decade. Now I never took out citizenship but was well embedded there.

Not for one second did I ever consider myself a native of that country. If I ever described myself as such, the locals would have looked at me as if I had ten heads.

And rightly so.

I actually disagree with this. I think because countries like America/Canada/Australia/New Zealand are countries with a strong immigrant culture and aren't tied by ethnicity like the way "old world" European/Asian countries are.

I know lots of naturalised Americans who identify as American even if they moved there as adults. And Americans are proud of that. Naturalization is celebrated there and I've always admired that about them. Ronald Reagan in a speech on immigration spoke of a letter he received from a recent naturalised immigrant on what it means to be an American:

"You can go to live in France, but you cannot become a Frenchman. You can go to live in Germany, or Turkey or Japan, but you cannot become a German, a Turk or Japanese. But anyone, from any corner of the Earth, can come to live in America and become an American."

Rodin

joe40 wrote: »

On reflection saying heritage and ethnicity was nonsense was ott.
I'm proud of my Irish heritage.
I do think though the whole notion can be overstated though.
Someone born here, who identifies as Irish is as Irish as I am.

And others disagree...
I don't think people not from here identify with the history. People who are here for generations identify with the history... indeed their ancestors starved, rebelled, recovered then rebuilt in the country. Don't tell me that someone with no Irish heritage identifies with that...

Rodin

SharpshooterTom wrote: »

I actually disagree with this. I think because countries like America/Canada/Australia/New Zealand are countries with a strong immigrant culture and aren't tied by ethnicity like the way "old world" European/Asian countries are.

I know lots of naturalised Americans who identify as American even if they moved there as adults. And Americans are proud of that. Naturalization is celebrated there and I've always admired that about them. Ronald Reagan in a speech on immigration spoke of a letter he received from a recent naturalised immigrant on what it means to be an American:

"You can go to live in France, but you cannot become a Frenchman. You can go to live in Germany, or Turkey or Japan, but you cannot become a German, a Turk or Japanese. But anyone, from any corner of the Earth, can come to live in America and become an American."

Because America has eff all history of any length.
Even Americans identify with being from elsewhere... African-American, Irish American, Italian American.....etc

DerekC16

You don't become Irish by obtaining citizenship, you become a citizen of Ireland. Nationality and citizenship are two different things.

Rodin

ExMachina1000 wrote: »

Well he isnt ethnically English. If I think what do ethnically English people look like my mind thinks historically. A white protestant.

Just like if I was asked about the ethnicity of someone from Saudi Arabia my mind pictures an Arab muslim.

Or an ethnically Chinese person my mind gives an image of someone with Asian features.

I dont see a white person as an ethnicity of Saudi Arabia or a black person as ethnicity Chinese

It doesn't really add up. Maybe in ten generations time but not now.
He is definitely English but not ethnically English

Seems to be only in the west that these changes are taking place

Only in the west are we expected to adapt and assimilate.
The greatest misogynists, racists, and least progressive types are not in the west. Just try getting a hot dog in Riyadh during Ramadan because you're not of the local faith...

bfa1509

99nsr125 wrote: »

No

No Irish heritage not Irish

Would you consider someone Chinese just because they lived a while in China.

Holding a passport is not the same as being

I call myself Chinese... after 10 pints

85603

You may have no other gods before me.

To be Irish you must be willing to put Ireland before any and all other countries.

So, in a theoretical war with Brazil, or Poland or Nigeria those countries become your enemy.

T.V Eye

85603 wrote: »

You may have no other gods before me.

To be Irish you must be willing to put Ireland before any and all other countries.

So, in a theoretical war with Brazil, or Poland or Nigeria those countries become your enemy.

I was born in Ireland but I’m switching sides if we go to war with any of those nations.

jacksonsarm

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2T1D9-94xOU

Hamachi

SharpshooterTom wrote: »

I actually disagree with this. I think because countries like America/Canada/Australia/New Zealand are countries with a strong immigrant culture and aren't tied by ethnicity like the way "old world" European/Asian countries are.

I agree with you on this. It’s possible to become ‘X’ in the ‘new world societies founded on immigration.

The scenario I was describing was in Europe. I don’t believe there is a single society in Europe that would you accept you as a native after a mere decade. This holds true for the most inclusive and multicultural societies on the continent.

That’s what makes the ignorance of denying an Irish heritage and ethnicity so galling. It’s usually done by Irish people who have never spent substantial time outside the country and have no idea how seriously other nations treat these concepts.

...Ghost...

odyssey06 wrote: »

Who you cheer for in sports is also a good indication... ultimate test is if they are playing your ancestral homeland.

I usually hear people cheering for Man United or Liverpool in the pub. Not many Irish in the local.

snotboogie

Hamachi wrote: »

I agree with you on this. It’s possible to become ‘X’ in the ‘new world societies founded on immigration.

The scenario I was describing was in Europe. I don’t believe there is a single society in Europe that would you accept you as a native after a mere decade. This holds true for the most inclusive and multicultural societies on the continent.

That’s what makes the ignorance of denying an Irish heritage and ethnicity so galling. It’s usually done by Irish people who have never spent substantial time outside the country and have no idea how seriously other nations treat these concepts.

You are conflating moving to a country as an adult with someone of a different ethnicity being born and raised in the country, which is the topic of the OP. Are you saying that Zlatan isn't considered Swedish in Sweden? Or that the French don't consider Zidane one of their own?

Rodin

snotboogie wrote: »

You are conflating moving to a country as an adult with someone of a different ethnicity being born and raised in the country, which is the topic of the OP. Are you saying that Zlatan isn't considered Swedish in Sweden? Or that the French don't consider Zidane one of their own?

Id say that if instead of a world class footballer, Zidane was a terrorist shooting Charlie Hebdo comics then his Algerian heritage would soon come to the fore...

Hamachi

snotboogie wrote: »

You are conflating moving to a country as an adult with someone of a different ethnicity being born and raised in the country, which is the topic of the OP. Are you saying that Zlatan isn't considered Swedish in Sweden? Or that the French don't consider Zidane one of their own?

I’m not conflating anything. I was responding to a point another poster made, not the OP.

That’s permitted I believe.

Black Swan

Does shrimp have to be on the barbie?

snotboogie

Hamachi wrote: »

I’m not conflating anything. I was responding to a point another poster made, not the OP.

That’s permitted I believe.

You are though. You are conflating an adult living in a different European country for 10 years not being accepted as a national of that country with us "denying an Irish heritage and ethnicity" presumably because we accept non ethnically Irish people born and raised here as one of our own. In reality all Western European countries do the same.

gozunda

joe40 wrote: »

You're Irish, simple as that.

You may choose to identify with your Parents Country also that is up to you.

This notion of heritage or ethnicity is nonsense.

So would you say ethnic descriptors such as Afro Caribbean Or Indian are incorrect?

Ethnicity is simply a grouping of people who identify with each other on the basis of shared attributes which distinguishes them from other groups such as shared or common folklore, culture, ancestry, history, society, religion etc.

And by that definition - a significant majority of the population in this country would be defined as ethically Irish ie belonging to an ethnic group 
who trace their full or partial ancestry to Ireland and who share a common identity and culture.

That said there's plenty of wriggle room in such descriptors tbh.

TheValeyard

Hmmmm this seems trickier the more I read the thread.

Can definitely see both sides of the argument.

Hamachi

snotboogie wrote: »

You are though. You are conflating an adult living in a different European country for 10 years not being accepted as a national of that country with us "denying an Irish heritage and ethnicity" presumably because we accept non ethnically Irish people born and raised here as one of our own. In reality all Western European countries do the same.

No, I’m not and you’re putting words in my mouth. Where did I state that non-ethnically Irish born people are non-Irish? In fact, I explicitly stated that one such person is clearly Irish.

My point is that’s idiotic to deny that there is a distinct Irish heritage and ethnicity. That is one of the most ridiculous statements I’ve ever read on this forum, particularly originating from a poster who identifies himself as a teacher.

snotboogie

Hamachi wrote: »

No, I’m not and you’re putting words in my mouth. Where did I state that non-ethnically Irish born people are non-Irish? In fact, I explicitly stated that one such person is clearly Irish.

My point is that’s idiotic to deny that there is a distinct Irish heritage and ethnicity. That is one of the most ridiculous statements I’ve ever read on this forum, particularly originating from a poster who identifies himself as a teacher.

I am not a teacher and have never identified as one lol

You are conflating the two points though. Germans not accepting someone who moves to Germany as an adult and living there for 10 years as German has nothing at all to do with our "distinct Irish heritage and identity"

Hamachi wrote: »

The scenario I was describing was in Europe. I don’t believe there is a single society in Europe that would you accept you as a native after a mere decade. This holds true for the most inclusive and multicultural societies on the continent.

That’s what makes the ignorance of denying an Irish heritage and ethnicity so galling. It’s usually done by Irish people who have never spent substantial time outside the country and have no idea how seriously other nations treat these concepts.

Hamachi

snotboogie wrote: »

I am not a teacher and have never identified as one lol

You are conflating the two points though. Germans not accepting someone who moves to Germany as an adult and living there for 10 years as German has nothing at all to do with our "distinct Irish heritage and identity"

I wasn’t referring to you as a teacher. Thankfully standards haven’t slipped that much yet. Let’s try this one more time.

My first point was agreeing with another poster that living in a foreign country, doesn’t magically transform you into a native of that country, either in terms of self-identification or in eyes of the locals.

My second point was disagreeing with another poster (the teacher), who rubbished the notion of an Irish heritage and ethnicity.

Two distinct strands of thought that can comfortably co-exist.

KungPao

My wife is a foreign, non EU. Has the passport and is “Irish”, but she is isn’t really.

If we had a sprog here and raised him here in the ways of the Irishman, he’d be Irish, with some of her heritage, and vice versa if we had the nipper in her country.

But if Xi Xiang and Maria Lopez have a kid here, not really Irish that lad IMO.

Hamachi

KungPao wrote: »

But if Xi Xiang and Maria Lopez have a kid here, not really Irish that lad IMO.

I get your argument, but I kind of disagree. If the child is born here and grows up here feeling a strong affinity to this country, s/he is Irish by citizenship and is culturally Irish.

However, with the best will in the world, I don’t think it’s possible to claim that the child is ethnically Irish.

ittakestwo

DerekC16 wrote: »

You don't become Irish by obtaining citizenship, you become a citizen of Ireland. Nationality and citizenship are two different things.

Does not go down well when you tell a unionists in the north they're Irish and only British citizens.

Yurt2

All the major English speaking countries have powerful immigrant founding myths. Even the UK had a much more diverse population before the post-WW2 influx of ex empire subjects and has a not insignificant population of Jews / Russians / Poles / Chinese / South Asians and others (never mind the 'natives' being mutts from Danish, Norman, Roman, Jutes, Picts and whatever you're having).

Ireland's founding myth? We're a bit hazy on it, but it's something like we emerged from the celtic mist swinging a hurley with a fire-breathing wolfhound by our side. We were conceived as an ethnostate even though we're fairly mutt-like ourselves.

Duffy the Vampire Slayer

Who is ethnically Irish? We're all a mix of Celts, Vikings, Normans, English, Scots etc.

gozunda

Duffy the Vampire Slayer wrote: »

Who is ethnically Irish? We're all a mix of Celts, Vikings, Normans, English, Scots etc.

That's the thing - there isn't a nation on this planet which historically hasn't been overrun, invaded, immigrated, assimilated at some time or other.

Most European countries have, most African countries have. The New World etc

It remains - a significant majority of the population of most of these countries can be defined as belonging to one or more  ethnic group - who trace their full or partial ancestry to a particular country / region and who share elements of identity and culture. For example- The Gambia (one of Africa's smallest countries) recognises no less that 9 different ethnic groups and 23 official languages plus all those of dual or multiple ethnicities.

Strangely It seems to be fairly fashionable to consider any country outside the Far East, Asia and Africa etc as not meeting any criteria for ethnicity by default. It's all a bit odd tbh ..

Nqp15hhu

If you are born in England you are English.