European Union's vaccination performance

NeuralNetwork

HalfAndHalf wrote: »

The EU aren’t exporting anything. The EU don’t own the vaccines that private companies have developed and produced, the private companies do.

This view that the EU control the stock of private companies is bizarre.

What next, oh we’ve not enough BMW’s in Germany so we’re banning exports to other countries where people have ordered them....

You could argue exactly the same about the multinational pharmaceutical companies the US has been leveraging supplies from for months. None of them are state owned enterprises, in fact most of them are owned by investors all over the world and many of them have acquired large parts of themselves and their their technical competencies though acquisition of companies including many in Europe or through licensed technology, partnerships and cooperation.

The Pfizer vaccine for example is technology developed by a small German biotech company, so is CureVac. Janssen was acquired by J&J and the research all came out of NL and BE.

However it’s fine for the US and others to engage in protectionism but dare the EU do it and they’re an evil empire trying to impinge on businesses.

The US Defence Production Act is like something from a command economy, yet it is apparently totally fine.

The double standards are shocking tbh.

robinph

astrofool wrote: »

It's not a great analogy, but I would posit that the UK are reaching over and grabbing other people's masks, hoarding them, and insisting that they're entitled to all the masks they've taken, meanwhile the EU is asking for those masks back, while distributing masks to the rest of the plane.

It will be for a court to figure out if the UK is stealing someone else's mask, or just making sure they have put theirs on properly first. So far the EU hasn't questioned it though, just shouted across the aisle that the UK was cheating by grabbing their mask first.

Padre_Pio

HalfAndHalf wrote: »

The EU aren’t exporting anything. The EU don’t own the vaccines that private companies have developed and produced, the private companies do.

This view that the EU control the stock of private companies is bizarre.

What next, oh we’ve not enough BMW’s in Germany so we’re banning exports to other countries where people have ordered them....

UK and US have export bans.
They also don't own the vaccines.

robinph

Padre_Pio wrote: »

UK and US have export bans.
They also don't own the vaccines.

What vaccines has the UK produced which it isn't exporting?

The only one they have locally is Astra Zeneca which they are using, and the EU is talking about banning export of Astra Zeneca to the UK until the UK exports Astra Zeneca to the EU. Someone hasn't done their sums properly with that equation.

HalfAndHalf

Padre_Pio wrote: »

UK and US have export bans.
They also don't own the vaccines.

The US does, the U.K. don’t.

HalfAndHalf

robinph wrote: »

It will be for a court to figure out if the UK is stealing someone else's mask, or just making sure they have put theirs on properly first. So far the EU hasn't questioned it though, just shouted across the aisle that the UK was cheating by grabbing their mask first.

What I want to know is why the EU are putting so much effort into publicly highlighting AZ as not doing this and not doing that, all the while constantly rubbishing the vaccine as not for over 65’s, now not for under 50’s, halting usage yet not a single peep for any other vaccine, yet Pfizer has been put in the mix for the same clots.

AZ developed and produced and supplied a valid vaccine and sold it at near cost to get the world out of a pandemic that has taken a lot of lives, yet certain groups do nothing but give out about it while hailing other manufacturers who are charging a lot to make huge profits.

It’s a bizarre and surely to be found at a later date, dodgy as hell situation.

Padre_Pio

robinph wrote: »

What vaccines has the UK produced which it isn't exporting?

The only one they have locally is Astra Zeneca which they are using, and the EU is talking about banning export of Astra Zeneca to the UK until the UK exports Astra Zeneca to the EU. Someone hasn't done their sums properly with that equation.

Sorry, my wording was poor.

The deal the UK govt has with AZ is simply better that the EU-AZ deal.
AZ can't send UK produced vaccines to Europe until the UK need is fulfilled.
https://www.politico.eu/article/why-the-uk-doesnt-need-a-coronavirus-vaccine-export-ban/

HalfAndHalf

NeuralNetwork wrote: »

I think we could do with listening a lot less to the anti EU press in the U.K. that went immediately on rants about vaccine nationalism, and those were echoed around international media outlets and the financial media too, despite the fact that that plants in the EU were supporting vaccine programmes in the U.K. and in many countries around the world.

Somehow it’s legitimate for traditional sovereign states to do that but when the EU even hinted at regulating exports there was outraged because of rampant anti EU sentiment and double standards.

We were worse for paying any attention to it and I think it triggers a lot naval gazing in Europe.

The reality of this is the EU has had some of the worst impacts of the pandemic in terms of death per capita and disruption. We haven’t really accepted this is a pan EU emergency. It’s as serious as a war situation, yet we seem to have let it drift and not focused on solutions and speed in the way the US in particular has done.

The same could be said for the anti-brit media as well. Just look at Macron yesterday saying that France has to go back into another lockdown due to the ‘British strain’. The rhetoric being that it’s those nasty Brits that cultivated a new more deadly strain and let it loose on Europe.

He completely ignores his own party stating he’s ignoring medical advice and has become some self expert on pandemics all of a sudden. Or that it was just a new strain discovered by the brits, out of hundreds of mutated strains seeing as that’s how viruses work.

It’s all political BS designed to keep politicians devoid of responsibility for their mistakes.

NeuralNetwork

NeuralNetwork wrote: »

There’s no question but the EU response was inadequate but I’m not sure it had the ability to respond much better than it did.

We all tend to assume the EU is directly comparable to the US Federal Government, because it’s a large, economically powerful bloc but also because that’s the image continuously projected by Eurosceptic media in the U.K. - they discuss the EU as if it’s some all-powerful entity that pursues political agendas, much like a US president.
...

I'm just snipping there for tidiness.

If someone said to me "Hey you! Will you procure several hundred million vaccines before the end of the year please?" my response would be "I think you've got the wrong number". If they can't do it then why are they doing it?
Funding isn't the issue, it's being funded as it's needed.
The issue is they signed ****ty, unenforceable contracts (at least in the important timeframe) and they allowed the Brits to run rings around them. We've seen with Brexit how utterly hopeless the Brits usually are when it comes to diplomacy and negotiations but in the case of the vaccines it's as if the EU couldn't find a dozen people out of nearly half a million who knew how to write a proper contract. It's inexcusable.

astrofool

Aegir wrote: »

a better analogy would be the UK saying we have our own mask, why didn't you bring yours?

Only for it to turn out their mask was 75% made by the EU.

HalfAndHalf wrote: »

Your view was that the U.K. are twice as bad as the EU. Which it isn’t.

You want to pluck points in time out to bolster your narrative that the U.K. is twice as bad as the EU. Which it isn’t.

What will your argument be once all is said and done and the figures show most countries are near identical?

But OK.

You called me a liar, I didn't lie, but it's OK if you're not up to admitting mistakes. The UK death rate for the entire pandemic is 2.5 times that of Ireland per capita, I am pretty confident (again opinion, not fact, because this is not a fact) that Ireland's death rate per capita will be less than half that of the UK by the time this is all over, which for the UK being an Island nation that had advanced warning of what was happening, is a pretty horrendous statistic for them.

Padre_Pio wrote: »

The UK is putting the UK first, and fair play to them.
The US is doing the same.

UAE and Israel are paying a premium for their citizens.

It's a shame the EU isn't putting the EU first, and exporting millions of vaccines to other countries and prolonging lockdowns in countries that are worst affected by COVID.

It's all well to say "Oh aren't we great" by not implementing export bans, but looking at the worst affected countries (deaths per million), 4 of the top 10 are in the EU, and the continent is entering a third wave of infection.

That's your selfish opinion that an EU life is worth more than the lives of people in the rest of the world, aren't we lucky as a race that not everyone thinks this way.

Padre_Pio wrote: »

Sorry, my wording was poor.

The deal the UK govt has with AZ is simply better that the EU-AZ deal.
AZ can't send UK produced vaccines to Europe until the UK need is fulfilled.
https://www.politico.eu/article/why-the-uk-doesnt-need-a-coronavirus-vaccine-export-ban/

Incorrect, the deal the EU signed before the UK signed their deal does not list any better contracts that would materially effect the EU deal, if AZ did sign a deal later than effected the EU contract, they are in breach of that contract. Proving it is a different matter, but the EU will be keeping the UK exports on a tight leash from now on. The UK was crowing about how they got their manufacturing running and supplied their own vaccines, but then the truth dropped and suddenly they "own" EU produced vaccines in Netherlands.

HalfAndHalf

astrofool wrote: »

Only for it to turn out their mask was 75% made by the EU.



You called me a liar, I didn't lie, but it's OK if you're not up to admitting mistakes.



That's your selfish opinion that an EU life is worth more than the lives of people in the rest of the world, aren't we lucky as a race that not everyone thinks this way.



Incorrect, the deal the EU signed before the UK signed their deal does not list any better contracts that would materially effect the EU deal, if AZ did sign a deal later than effected the EU contract, they are in breach of that contract. Proving it is a different matter, but the EU will be keeping the UK exports on a tight leash from now on. The UK was crowing about how they got their manufacturing running and supplied their own vaccines, but then the truth dropped and suddenly they "own" EU produced vaccines in Netherlands.

As I said, OK boss *thumbsup*

Everyone else is wrong and have to admit their mistakes, but you’re right’

I mean, the U.K. signed their contract with AZ in June, the EU signed theirs at the end of August, but yeah EU signed theirs first.

There’s no talking to someone who picks parts to suit their narrative, so I’m out. Thanks though.

Wolf359f

Padre_Pio wrote: »

Sorry, my wording was poor.

The deal the UK govt has with AZ is simply better that the EU-AZ deal.
AZ can't send UK produced vaccines to Europe until the UK need is fulfilled.
https://www.politico.eu/article/why-the-uk-doesnt-need-a-coronavirus-vaccine-export-ban/

Was the head of AZ not quoted stating there is no legal impediment to them using the UK factories to supply the EU?

astrofool

HalfAndHalf wrote: »

As I said, OK boss *thumbsup*

Everyone else is wrong and have to admit their mistakes, you’re right’

I mean, the U.K. signed their contract with AZ in June, the EU signed theirs at the end of August, but yeah EU signed theirs first.

There’s no talking to someone who picks parts to suit their narrative, so I’m out. Thanks though.

I've made plenty of mistakes, and posted incorrect facts before, and happily own them, if I call someone out on posting a lie, and I'm wrong, I'll admit it, this is the internet, there's no winning, people will form opinions around facts, it's important that the posted facts are correct, and if they're not, they should be called out and corrected, otherwise people will have ill informed opinions. By you saying that my post that the death rate in the UK wasn't double that of the EU ~12 weeks ago, you're posting misinformation that people will use to form incorrect opinions.

But sure *BOSS* :pac:

Danzy

astrofool wrote: »

I've made plenty of mistakes, and posted incorrect facts before, and happily own them, if I call someone out on posting a lie, and I'm wrong, I'll admit it, this is the internet, there's no winning, people will form opinions around facts, it's important that the posted facts are correct, and if they're not, they should be called out and corrected, otherwise people will have ill informed opinions. By you saying that my post that the death rate in the UK wasn't double that of the EU ~12 weeks ago, you're posting misinformation that people will use to form incorrect opinions.

But sure *BOSS* :pac:

Unfortunately much of the EU seems determined to pip Britain at the post when it comes to deaths from this.

HalfAndHalf

astrofool wrote: »

I've made plenty of mistakes, and posted incorrect facts before, and happily own them, if I call someone out on posting a lie, and I'm wrong, I'll admit it, this is the internet, there's no winning, people will form opinions around facts, it's important that the posted facts are correct, and if they're not, they should be called out and corrected, otherwise people will have ill informed opinions. By you saying that my post that the death rate in the UK wasn't double that of the EU ~12 weeks ago, you're posting misinformation that people will use to form incorrect opinions.

But sure *BOSS* :pac:

LOL - I’m posting misinformation causing people to form incorrect opinions..........1 post after stating the EU signed their AZ contract before the U.K..........

Good one

astrofool

Danzy wrote: »

Unfortunately much of the EU seems determined to pip Britain at the post when it comes to deaths from this.

Yes, we (Ireland) got unlucky that the Kent variant emerged right around Christmas when lots of people were travelling back and forth from the UK, otherwise our numbers would be much better. It can also be seen why the travel restrictions to and from the UK were put in place by every other country, and that they probably weren't an overreaction based on the numbers since.

The continent is hitting it's 3rd wave now, but is in a better position with the most vulnerable and healthcare workers already vaccinated, and improving weather getting people outdoors more, so while there will be an increase in cases, the death count increase probably won't be as severe as what the UK and Ireland had over the winter period.

astrofool

HalfAndHalf wrote: »

LOL - I’m posting misinformation causing people to form incorrect opinions..........1 post after stating the EU signed their AZ contract before the U.K..........

Good one

Hurrache

The Economist had an apparent dubious article on this topic recently, fact checked by this guy
https://twitter.com/fraguarascio/status/1377563741450014721

HalfAndHalf

astrofool wrote: »

That’s what I thought!

astrofool

HalfAndHalf wrote: »

That’s what I thought!

The EU actually did sign the contract with AZ 1 day before the UK contract was signed, it's mentioned multiple times on this thread by multiple different people and on the vaccination thread and can be looked up quickly on the internet. You need to take the blinkers off quickly.

HalfAndHalf

astrofool wrote: »

The EU actually did sign the contract with AZ 1 day before the UK contract was signed, it's mentioned multiple times on this thread by multiple different people and on the vaccination thread and can be looked up quickly on the internet. You need to take the blinkers off quickly.

https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/en/IP_20_1524

https://www.researchprofessionalnews.com/rr-news-europe-innovation-2021-1-astrazeneca-boss-says-faster-uk-vaccines-due-to-contract-terms/

I did. Thanks.

astrofool

HalfAndHalf wrote: »

https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/en/IP_20_1524

https://www.researchprofessionalnews.com/rr-news-europe-innovation-2021-1-astrazeneca-boss-says-faster-uk-vaccines-due-to-contract-terms/

I did. Thanks.

Just in case you want to not retract a statement again:

CNN obtained a redacted version of the UK’s contract through a freedom of information request.

Officials provided the US broadcaster with a link to the contract on a government website, where it was posted in November but appeared to have gone largely unnoticed.

UK ministers refused to publicly release details of the contract for commercial reasons.

The agreement states that AstraZeneca can “update and refine” the delivery schedule when necessary. The company must give the government at least 30 days’ notice before each delivery.

Mr Soriot said last month that the company would supply the UK with doses before European markets because an agreement was reached with Britain first.

However, the UK’s contract with AstraZeneca is dated August 28 – one day after the EU contract. The agreement also states that Britain could receive doses manufactured in EU member states.

Banana Republic 1

AstraZeneca sold they EU vaccines and then turned around and sold the same vaccines to the UK. Says euronews

Strazdas

Hurrache wrote: »

The Economist had an apparent dubious article on this topic recently, fact checked by this guy
https://twitter.com/fraguarascio/status/1377563741450014721

There's definitely something strange going on in the British media. The line that the EU vaccination rollout is an utter disaster / shambles is reported daily as if it is an established fact and one that is accepted by everyone, even though it seems mainly to be a Brexiteer / Europhobe opinion.

It's worrying that even The Economist and the Financial Times seem to have been infected by the Brexit virus.

Danzy

Strazdas wrote: »

There's definitely something strange going on in the British media. The line that the EU vaccination rollout is an utter disaster / shambles is rolled out daily as if it is an established fact and one that is accepted by everyone, even though it seems mainly to be a Brexiteer / Europhobe opinion.

It's worrying that even The Economist and the Financial Times seem to have been infected by the Brexit virus.

The line that the EU vaccination programme is a fiasco is also heard internationally and from many leading supporters of the EU project.

It's hard to pretend that much of the EU in lockdown or returning to lockdown is a greater success than what is happening in other countries, like Britain and America.

HalfAndHalf

astrofool wrote: »

Just in case you want to not retract a statement again:

Nope, I’ll take the multiple sources available over someone at CNN saying that the redacted copy they saw was dated 28th August. US media are as bad as U.K. media

astrofool

HalfAndHalf wrote: »

Nope, I’ll take the multiple sources available over someone at CNN saying that the redacted copy they saw was dated 28th August. US media are as bad as U.K. media

It's released under freedom of information, anyone can request and get access to it. But look, if you're going to ignore facts that's fine, everybody reading your posts will also know that in your future posts.

Here is the contract for you to read:
https://www.contractsfinder.service.gov.uk/Notice/SupplierAttachment/77bb967f-0194-452a-bdae-9999aecc753d

Strazdas

Danzy wrote: »

The line that the EU vaccination programme is a fiasco is also heard internationally and from many leading supporters of the EU project.

It's hard to pretend that much of the EU in lockdown or returning to lockdown is a greater success than what is happening in other countries, like Britain and America.

There are definitely problems with the European rollout and people are very frustrated with its slowness. But the only individuals in a state of total hysteria about it are the English media (strange, as it doesn't even impact on them or their citizens).

Also, they are the ones who seem to be telling actual lies and many outright distortions about it, rather than simply reporting on the problems in a factual manner, as per the Economist front page.

HalfAndHalf

astrofool wrote: »

It's released under freedom of information, anyone can request and get access to it. But look, if you're going to ignore facts that's fine, everybody reading your posts will also know that in your future posts.

Here is the contract for you to read:
https://www.contractsfinder.service.gov.uk/Notice/SupplierAttachment/77bb967f-0194-452a-bdae-9999aecc753d

Yes I read what you posted, clearly you’re happy to believe whatever suits your opinion but I’m not.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-07-20/u-k-orders-90-million-vaccine-doses-from-pfizer-valneva?utm_source=url_link

How exactly did the U.K. sign a deal with Pfizer in July (after signing with AZ) then??

Or are Bloomberg lying as well? Jesus!

quokula

HalfAndHalf wrote: »

Yes I read what you posted, clearly you’re happy to believe whatever suits your opinion but I’m not.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-07-20/u-k-orders-90-million-vaccine-doses-from-pfizer-valneva?utm_source=url_link

How exactly did the U.K. sign a deal with Pfizer in July (after signing with AZ) then??

Or are Bloomberg lying as well? Jesus!

So a random report you managed to find that supports your existing bias is more accurate than an actual copy of the contract from the UK government website?