European Union's vaccination performance

NeuralNetwork

HalfAndHalf wrote: »

The same could be said for the anti-brit media as well. Just look at Macron yesterday saying that France has to go back into another lockdown due to the ‘British strain’. The rhetoric being that it’s those nasty Brits that cultivated a new more deadly strain and let it loose on Europe.

He completely ignores his own party stating he’s ignoring medical advice and has become some self expert on pandemics all of a sudden. Or that it was just a new strain discovered by the brits, out of hundreds of mutated strains seeing as that’s how viruses work.

It’s all political BS designed to keep politicians devoid of responsibility for their mistakes.

I assume you’re watching French media though the lens of British media then, as there’s really no such rhetoric going on. They’re mostly ignoring the whole Brexit thing and the AstraZeneca story is largely one about the company and a problem with endless anti vax sentiment.

The majority of French media coverage is aimed at French government and Macron’s far from Mr Populaire at the moment.

The media focus is very much about the machinations of the lockdown, technical briefings, and so on. It’s not much different to here.

The U.K. strain terminology is used around the world, including by US media all the time.

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/03/31/covid-variant-cdc-director-says-uk-strain-becoming-the-predominant-strain-in-parts-of-us.html

https://www.latimes.com/science/story/2021-03-17/coronavirus-strains-california-versus-uk

https://www.wcvb.com/article/rise-in-united-kingdom-covid-19-variant-cases-in-massachusetts-has-doctors-on-alert/35931040

Countless examples - that’s just the terminology that’s being used. Also the Brazilian strain, the South African strain, the Californian strain etc

I find there’s an imagination in the U.K. that people are somehow vexed by Brexit on the continent. They really aren’t. Mostly people are vaguely aware it’s even still a live topic.

Also the AstraZeneca vaccine isn’t really seen as British anymore than people here are describing BioNTech as German or Moderna as American. It’s a story about a faceless multinational & its repeated failure to deliver and about scares around clotting which are just that.

You’re talking about populations that are a lot more sceptical about big pharmaceutical companies in some cases and that are much more wary of vaccines than many of us here are. It’s a total misrepresentation to assume that’s politically against the U.K. somehow.

robinph

NeuralNetwork wrote: »

The U.K. strain terminology is used around the world, including by US media all the time.

Including by UK media, although they occasionally refer to it as the Kent variant instead.

NeuralNetwork

I just find people are plucking their notions of what’s being said in Europe out of their own imaginations or the pages of U.K. tabloids or their social media feeds.

I speak French so I watch French satellite tv quite a bit and have 3 French news channels as well as the whole raft of French free to air channels and that sentiment is really not to be seen on any of them any more than you’d see it on RTE or Virgin Media news.

There’s a lot of annoyance about the lockdown, concern about the virus generally and much like here, frustration about the slow rollout of vaccines. You’ve a lot of people making side comments in France about the leisurely pace the whole thing is moving at.

robinph

Strazdas wrote: »

There are definitely problems with the European rollout and people are very frustrated with its slowness. But the only individuals in a state of total hysteria about it are the English media (strange, as it doesn't even impact on them or their citizens).

The only people who are in a state of hysteria about it are people on boards who read some articles in the UK media about "How come the EU hasn't vaccinated as many people as us" and translate that to be "The EU are a bunch of fools who can't speak English properly, eat funny food and steal our fish...which we don't want anyway...but stop stealing our fish...even though we don't want it".

The UK is mostly just wondering why the EU isn't managing the same as the UK, and quite happy that the UK is actually doing something right for a change. Very little hysteria about it other than mild curiosity about how the UK isn't the worst at something covid related for a change.

PCeeeee

robinph wrote: »

The only people who are in a state of hysteria about it are people on boards who read some articles in the UK media about "How come the EU hasn't vaccinated as many people as us" and translate that to be "The EU are a bunch of fools who can't speak English properly, eat funny food and steal our fish...which we don't want anyway...but stop stealing our fish...even though we don't want it".

Amazing that the only people who swallow the British tabloid media message as aptly described above are here on boards.ie.

HalfAndHalf

quokula wrote: »

So a random report you managed to find that supports your existing bias is more accurate than an actual copy of the contract from the UK government website?

What exactly is my existing bias? What exactly are you trying to accuse me of?

I hadn’t seen the contract until today, granted it states 28th August but my question is then why so many legitimate outlets stating June then? The chronology or these reports such as Pfizer signed in July AFTER the AZ contract makes no sense then.

astrofool

HalfAndHalf wrote: »

What exactly is my existing bias? What exactly are you trying to accuse me of?

I hadn’t seen the contract until today, granted it states 28th August but my question is then why so many legitimate outlets stating June then? The chronology or these reports such as Pfizer signed in July AFTER the AZ contract makes no sense then.

(the UK let everyone believe they had all this organised early, when the reality was that negotiations were still ongoing and not finalised till later, which just happened to be a day later than the EU contract was finalised, what amazes me is that this is mentioned so much by other people, did you think everyone was lying, or being disingenuous?).

fly_agaric

NeuralNetwork wrote: »

However it’s fine for the US and others to engage in protectionism but dare the EU do it and they’re an evil empire trying to impinge on businesses.

The US Defence Production Act is like something from a command economy, yet it is apparently totally fine.

The double standards are shocking tbh.

I wonder if the US (in particular) elbowing everyone else in the West right the f-ck out of the way to look after themselves in a real global crisis will have some lasting impacts on their relations with other countries (and the EU)?

I suppose a situation like this where the chips are down brings out the truth.
It will be interesting to see if it will have as big a negative impact on their relationship with "allies" and "friends" as election of Trump + (other, not Covid vaccine related) policies he followed while in charge?

Padre_Pio

astrofool wrote: »

That's your selfish opinion that an EU life is worth more than the lives of people in the rest of the world, aren't we lucky as a race that not everyone thinks this way.

I am firmly of the belief that EU lives are worth more than the lives of people in the rest of the world, especially as EU lives are more at risk than in other parts of the world.
What's the use shipping millions of vaccines to Oz and New Zealand while our own citizens are dying?

This is virtue signaling at it's highest. Let's not pretend that all nations, colours and creeds are dancing under a rainbow.

Danzy

Danzy wrote: »

The line that the EU vaccination programme is a fiasco is also heard internationally and from many leading supporters of the EU project.

It's hard to pretend that much of the EU in lockdown or returning to lockdown is a greater success than what is happening in other countries, like Britain and America.

Yeah the taking sides thing really is bloody irritating. It's like accepting any criticism means denouncing the entire thing.

Padre_Pio

Deleted User wrote: »

Yeah the taking sides thing really is bloody irritating. It's like accepting any criticism means denouncing the entire thing.

It's absolutely infuriating.

Same in the Brexit thread. Any criticism of any aspect of Britain or the EU is a criticism of the entire thing. A narrow-minded Us or Them outlook.

If anything, we in the EU should be more critical of the EU. We vote for them, we should be their harshest critics.

Strazdas

robinph wrote: »

The only people who are in a state of hysteria about it are people on boards who read some articles in the UK media about "How come the EU hasn't vaccinated as many people as us" and translate that to be "The EU are a bunch of fools who can't speak English properly, eat funny food and steal our fish...which we don't want anyway...but stop stealing our fish...even though we don't want it".

The UK is mostly just wondering why the EU isn't managing the same as the UK, and quite happy that the UK is actually doing something right for a change. Very little hysteria about it other than mild curiosity about how the UK isn't the worst at something covid related for a change.

How does one explain even the comments sections of the Financial Times (a subscription only newspaper) and the Guardian being completely taken over by Brexiteers attacking the EU on vaccines? This didn't even happen when Brexit was going terribly in the last couple of years.

NeuralNetwork

fly_agaric wrote: »

I wonder if the US (in particular) elbowing everyone else in the West right the f-ck out of the way to look after themselves in a real global crisis will have some lasting impacts on their relations with other countries (and the EU)?

I suppose a situation like this where the chips are down brings out the truth.
It will be interesting to see if it will have as big a negative impact on their relationship with "allies" and "friends" as election of Trump + (other, not Covid vaccine related) policies he followed while in charge?

Current US policy is effectively still the legacy of Trump's Operation Warp Speed. Some of it was very positive, but it was rolled marinated with a particular brand of protectionism that hasn't been seen in a long time. Biden hasn't even been in office 100 days yet, only 71 so far. So, any policies that are in place now are from the previous administration.

I'm not saying that Operation Warp Speed was wrong, it had a lot of good things going for it, but it just approaches them in an extremely nationalistic way and did not reach out to neighbours or partners in a way it could have.

In a different era, you'd have seen the UK as part of the EU, and the US and EU working in close partnership on this.

I think NATO could have also played a role (I know we're not members) but it's basically becoming a massive strategic weakness for that bloc and for the EU that the vaccine rollout isn't happening quickly enough.

The EU rollout, btw, isn't the only one in that situation, places like Canada, which was pretty much impacted by COVID in the same way as we were, but they were struggling to get vaccine supplies, despite having booked vast amounts of them quite early on.

Japan is behind where it should be, so is South Korea, so are Australia and NZ (although they had a zero covid strategy which took away a lot of the urgency).

However, when you look at it this could have been handled a lot better than it was.

I think what this period will do is damage the notion that you can depend on the US as a partner. You could well see a lot of countries, and the EU looking at whether it's a great idea to allow acquisitions and mergers for example, as they will start to see domestic biotech capacity (and less concentrated ownership of it) as a strategic asset to have within your own borders (or within the EU at least in our case).

It does potentially damage US - EU relations, and US - Canadian relations even more so, in a way that I think is going to be subtle and longer term.

There's an element of a lot of people being somewhat taken aback about old reliable partnerships having fallen by the wayside when a crisis really came and that means a lot more than words and treaties as it will impact political decision making for years to come.

robinph

Strazdas wrote: »

How does one explain even the comments sections of the Financial Times (a subscription only newspaper) and the Guardian being completely taken over by Brexiteers attacking the EU on vaccines? This didn't even happen when Brexit was going terribly in the last couple of years.

I believe you have experience of social media type forums on the internet?

NeuralNetwork

Padre_Pio wrote: »

It's absolutely infuriating.

Same in the Brexit thread. Any criticism of any aspect of Britain or the EU is a criticism of the entire thing. A narrow-minded Us or Them outlook.

If anything, we in the EU should be more critical of the EU. We vote for them, we should be their harshest critics.

That's an unfortunate feature of modern political discourse, and it's one that tends to come from the 'us' vs 'them' campaigns that have totally torn the US and UK to shreds over the last decade.

There's no logic to applying something like to the EU, when you consider that the EU isn't a single political philosophy, party or side. It's a complex organisation, that's sort of it's own unique thing.

You can't really compare it to a simple federal government and I don't think that's even something it necessarily should emulate, but it's also not just an intergovernmental organisation either. It's sort of occupying a space between the two with an evolving politics of its own, a concept of citizenship and shared rights and it's made up of umpteen political parties in the European Parliament and national governments all coming from very different angles with a vast array of proportional representation systems and all sorts of chaos.

How exactly you can have an 'us' vs 'them' with a complex organisation like that that's deeply embedded in proportional representation democracy and subsidiary is beyond me.

We can all like and dislike aspects of the EU or EU policy and we can also all push it to move in different directions, as it's democratically controlled.

In an Irish context at least, we're not really just having a simplistic debate about whether we're pro-EU or anti-EU. The EU is part of our governmental system and we are entitled to be very critical of it, much as we are very critical of parts of Oireachtas, individual Irish parties or politicians and Irish Government.

The level of debate I see around the EU would be like if every time we had a glitch with the Irish Government making some mess of a decision that we decided to throw our arms up in the air and give up on independence or something.

It's a reductive debate that emanates from eurosceptic English tabloid papers and I think it really should be left there

We can and should be able to have a grown up conversation about whether the European Commission has screwed up or not. It doesn't mean that we're anti-EU in so doing. That's just the rough and tumble of European or national politics.

There's a lot it could have done better when it comes to this vaccine rollout, but there are a lot of reasons for that and, unfortunately, I think that's going to be one of those areas where errors have been made in a very naive way and I think were are just going to have to learn from them.

My view of this is that it's a very unpleasant wake up call for Europe and I think we need to assess what happened and not tear ourselves apart about it, but fix the problems and make sure we come out of this a lot more robust. We can't afford to be bounced around like we have just been.

fly_agaric

NeuralNetwork wrote: »

Current US policy is effectively still the legacy of Trump's Operation Warp Speed. Some of it was very positive, but it was rolled marinated with a particular brand of protectionism that hasn't been seen in a long time. Biden hasn't even been in office 100 days yet, only 71 so far. So, any policies that are in place now are from the previous administration.

I'm not saying that Operation Warp Speed was wrong, it had a lot of good things going for it, but it just approaches them in an extremely nationalistic way and did not reach out to neighbours or partners in a way it could have.

In a different era, you'd have seen the UK as part of the EU, and the US and EU working in close partnership on this.

I think NATO could have also played a role (I know we're not members) but it's basically becoming a massive strategic weakness for that bloc and for the EU that the vaccine rollout isn't happening quickly enough.

The EU rollout, btw, isn't the only one in that situation, places like Canada, which was pretty much impacted by COVID in the same way as we were, but they were struggling to get vaccine supplies, despite having booked vast amounts of them quite early on.

Japan is behind where it should be, so is South Korea, so are Australia and NZ (although they had a zero covid strategy which took away a lot of the urgency).

However, when you look at it this could have been handled a lot better than it was.

I think what this period will do is damage the notion that you can depend on the US as a partner. You could well see a lot of countries, and the EU looking at whether it's a great idea to allow acquisitions and mergers for example, as they will start to see domestic biotech capacity (and less concentrated ownership of it) as a strategic asset to have within your own borders (or within the EU at least in our case).

It does potentially damage US - EU relations, and US - Canadian relations even more so, in a way that I think is going to be subtle and longer term.

There's an element of a lot of people being somewhat taken aback about old reliable partnerships having fallen by the wayside when a crisis really came and that means a lot more than words and treaties as it will impact political decision making for years to come.

I've been thinking along same lines about these kinds of impacts alright.
You'd expect it to prompt a deep re-evaluation of some very big strategic and critical things, but maybe dependence of the EU, European countries [and other Western countries you mention] on the US (and I suppose the UK too in likes of NATO, security partnerships etc) is such that this could be unthinkable?

What I find interesting is there seems to be little reflection at all on these aspects from US (or UK) as yet. I suppose it's far too soon for their media or politcians to appreciate what conclusions might be drawn about their behaviour during this crisis and what effects it could have in future.

I'm also very interested to see what happens when/if (for example) the US is trying to rope together new "helpers" in alliance against China and (potentially) absorb punishment from that country on the US's behalf.

I expect some could be leary, but if all that's desired are clients who can be bullied to jump when the US shouts how high (but to whom US feels it owes absolutely zero in return in a crisis like Covid-19, or perhaps a future war or conflict of some type) maybe it does not matter.

I don't think that was how the US used to treat its main "Western" allies in the past but perhaps my spectacles are rose tinted, or that is a form of equality in 21st century. They're now closer to the level of the more put upon & mistreated dependents (e.g. those in S. America and the Middle East) + will just have to lump it and look out for themselves and defend their own interests where they can (from their ally the US at times, as much as anyone else!).

NeuralNetwork

I think you're already seeing that with the emphasis that Canada has placed on CETA and ensuring it has alternative trade partnerships in place with the EU as a counterbalance to the dependence on the US.

Canada's vaccines came primarily from the EU, with some hope of getting more from the US as Biden relaxes things a bit.

I think from an EU point of view, the concern isn't likely to be about the current administration. Things will undoubtedly warm up as Biden's administration starts to engage in the months ahead, but there's a general concern that while Trump may be gone the politics that brought him to the fore is still very much a part of nearly half of the US political system. There's been very little in the way of change from the GOP and it's not only possible, but likely that you will see a future Trump-like government emerge either in the next term or the one following.

It's very hard to assume 'business as usual' given what's happened. I mean, Trump quite literally at one stage referred to the EU and Canada as 'enemies'. It wouldn't take much for the UK or Japan or anyone else to be thrown into that kind of rhetorical list either.

I think what you will see is a more cautious engagement with the US from now on, and more reluctance to create supply chain and economic dependencies in future, at least not ones that can be used as leverage by a populist government.

It's unfortunate, but that's the legacy of the last four years.

I don't think you're looking at some kind of hostile relationship, just a far more cautious one that is aware that things may be a lot more about a rather narrower vision, a lot more transactional and a much more quid pro quo type of connection.

Where we stand with the UK I think is a story yet to be told. It's not as simple as there are more interdependencies, but the UK would need to decide if it's going to be a friendly neighbour, or if it plans to continue with jibs and bitterness for years to come.

Personally, I think it will eventually calm down and there'll be a more pragmatic look at what the UK can do to interact with the EU without being in the EU, but we're no where near that stage yet and I think it will probably take a change of Prime Minister before we have any hopes of it.

Strazdas

Signs that the EU's programme is starting to accelerate at last : the member states are vaccinating an average of 1.8m people a day this week according to Bloomberg.

Padre_Pio

Strazdas wrote: »

Signs that the EU's programme is starting to accelerate at last : the member states are vaccinating an average of 1.8m people a day this week according to Bloomberg.

It's better, but the US was more than twice this last week and nearly three times as many are dying in Europe.

Strazdas

Padre_Pio wrote: »

It's better, but the US was more than twice this last week and nearly three times as many are dying in Europe.

I agree that it's not fast enough yet, but I've seen estimates that it will hit 3.5m a day later this month.

fash

HalfAndHalf wrote: »

The EU aren’t exporting anything. The EU don’t own the vaccines that private companies have developed and produced, the private companies do.

This view that the EU control the stock of private companies is bizarre.

What next, oh we’ve not enough BMW’s in Germany so we’re banning exports to other countries where people have ordered them....

Countries or unions allow exports or they don't. The US doesn't, the UK doesn't for medicines related to covid and through its contractual arrangements for covid vaccines. 50% of the vaccines used by the UK came from the EU, 0 went back.

micosoft

correct horse battery staple wrote: »

I dont remember ever giving a vote towards EU being given permission to dable in health. This is the first time something like this was done at EU level.

If you voted in the Irish General election of 2020 then you voted for this. Ireland like most countries is a representative democracy. As long as it's constitutional the Irish electorate delegated the right for the Irish government to hand responsibilities to the EU much as we have done for trade etc. It's absolutely not the first time this was done at EU level unless you are talking about exactly the same circumstances. The if a first time for everything. You should become familiar with the democracy you live in.

correct horse battery staple

correct horse battery staple wrote: »

I dont remember ever giving a vote towards EU being given permission to dable in health. This is the first time something like this was done at EU level.

Dont forget the decision to pool together vaccines under EU umbrella and cooperate was put forward by smaller states like Ireland who have fairly traumatic memories of a year ago when PPE was worth its weight in gold.

The decision to come together under the cooperation parts of the Treaty was the correct one. The only mistakes were

1. Trusting UK to be civilised and cooperative, but instead we got more of the zero sum games jingoism from the same school of bugger thy neighbour which gave us brexit
2. Allowing exports of vaccines while EU citizens were not vaccinated. US, UK etc have no issues blocking either directly or indirectly and no one gives out at them.

I hope lessons are learned from this and PPE fiascos and nonEU countries are cut out of critical supply chains altogether, if it means tarrif walls and regulations, then be it. It could be vaccines now, in 10 years it could be microchips, in 20 years it could be food. Take care of own citizens first.

so its all the fault of the Brits that the EU treated the procurement of probably the most important thing they have ever purchased, like they were entering in to a trade agreement with a third world country who would jump at their every whim?

Damn those Brits for the EU's incompetence and arrogance.

Dyr

correct horse battery staple wrote: »

I dont remember ever giving a vote towards EU being given permission to dable in health. This is the first time something like this was done at EU level.

Dont forget the decision to pool together vaccines under EU umbrella and cooperate was put forward by smaller states like Ireland who have fairly traumatic memories of a year ago when PPE was worth its weight in gold.


.

It fascinating to see people cling to narratives no matter what

Do you remember which EU countries broke ranks and decided to seek deals outside of the EU (which was prohibited by the EU?). Shall we list them.

Meanwhile the European countries with the highest vaccination rate are the ones who went their own way: the UK, Hungary and Serbia.

I guess they realised solidarity is no excuse for putting your citizens health in the hands of incompetents and idealogues.

correct horse battery staple

correct horse battery staple wrote: »

Erm what?

which bot didn't you understand?

The EU got it wrong. It has nothing to do with the UK, Da Brits, Brexit or the Tories, it all comes down to the EU treating the procurement of vaccines in the wrong manner.

Bit cynical

Here's a plot of total vaccines per capita for the EU, US and UK. I've also projected forward (dotted line) the EU line based on the 860,000 vaccines the HSE have promised for the month of April. The current projection of 860,000 is itself a reduction on a projection earlier in March.


From this I'm afraid it looks like even if the full amount is delivered we are still vaccinating at a slower rate than the US and so will not be catching up with them.