Schools and Covid 19 (part 5) **Mod warnings in OP**

glack

Wombatman wrote: »

UK government fiddling data on Covid in schools. Would never happen here....:rolleyes:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/may/22/no-10-tried-to-block-data-on-spread-of-new-covid-variant-in-english-schools

Definitely is happening here. We had an outbreak and the handling by HSE/Public Health was disgraceful! I had some faith in the system before but I’ve absolutely none now.

Midnight Sundance

Child in my class was off with flu symptoms, apparently still has cough but parents wants to return child to school tomorrow. Principal seems OK with this.
What exactly are the rules regarding returning to school after displaying covid symptoms.
Principal seems pretty relaxed so far about any kids I've had concerns about, if they have a cough I'm told they have to also have a temp
Is this true?
What if parent is masking the temp with calpol.

I dont want to go in tomorrow if there's a chance this child has covid and Principal let's child comes back without a covid test.

I've had to test my kids numerous times already for a lot less symptoms than this and I'm confused as everyone I ask seems to have different rules

Golfwidow

Midnight Sundance wrote: »

Child in my class was off with flu symptoms, apparently still has cough but parents wants to return child to school tomorrow. Principal seems OK with this.
What exactly are the rules regarding returning to school after displaying covid symptoms.
Principal seems pretty relaxed so far about any kids I've had concerns about, if they have a cough I'm told they have to also have a temp
Is this true?
What if parent is masking the temp with calpol.

I dont want to go in tomorrow if there's a chance this child has covid and Principal let's child comes back without a covid test.

I've had to test my kids numerous times already for a lot less symptoms than this and I'm confused as everyone I ask seems to have different rules

In my view, your principal is very wrong. Where I work, we ask parents to contact GP with any flu/cold symptoms. Members of my own family did not all have a temperature with Covid. That seems to have been more common with earlier variants. In fact, a sore throat /headaches very common. We’ve also been informed now that there is no contact tracing for schools due to the cyber attack. Stand your ground. Your health is important. Teachers and SNAs have been sold out with no vaccination priority. My sister, also a teacher contracted Covid at school. Her first signs were fatigue and change in taste. Other symptoms including temperature came days later.

Midnight Sundance

Golfwidow wrote: »

In my view, your principal is very wrong. Where I work, we ask parents to contact GP with any flu/cold symptoms. Members of my own family did not all have a temperature with Covid. That seems to have been more common with earlier variants. In fact, a sore throat /headaches very common. We’ve also been informed now that there is no contact tracing for schools due to the cyber attack. Stand your ground. Your health is important. Teachers and SNAs have been sold out with no vaccination priority. My sister, also a teacher contracted Covid at school. Her first signs were fatigue and change in taste. Other symptoms including temperature came days later.

Thank you.
I'm very concerned that any child that doesn't have a temp is deemed grand to be In school. So many of my kids have been off for a day because they had a cough but then come in the next day and when I question it I'm told it has to be a persistent cough along with high temp
I've had kids with sore throats and headaches and along with cough and told they're fine and never once have parents been asked for a doctor note to say they're OK.
My own children have been tested numerous times now for being a little off, and I've been made sign a form to day they are OK to return . Never have any of the parents of children in my class had to sign a form like this.

Golfwidow

Midnight Sundance wrote: »

Thank you.
I'm very concerned that any child that doesn't have a temp is deemed grand to be In school. So many of my kids have been off for a day because they had a cough but then come in the next day and when I question it I'm told it has to be a persistent cough along with high temp
I've had kids with sore throats and headaches and along with cough and told they're fine and never once have parents been asked for a doctor note to say they're OK.
My own children have been tested numerous times now for being a little off, and I've been made sign a form to day they are OK to return . Never have any of the parents of children in my class had to sign a form like this.

Can you bring this to attention of ISM? What about your Lead Worker Representative? Use example of protocol in your children’s and other local schools to drive home what should be practice in your work place? Emphasise that you don’t feel safe and would appreciate more protection in line with common practices in schools. Put in writing if you don’t feel listened to. Make sure you have support from others. Best of luck.

ShineOn7

Wombatman wrote: »

UK government fiddling data on Covid in schools. Would never happen here....:rolleyes:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/may/22/no-10-tried-to-block-data-on-spread-of-new-covid-variant-in-english-schools

glack wrote: »

Definitely is happening here. We had an outbreak and the handling by HSE/Public Health was disgraceful! I had some faith in the system before but I’ve absolutely none now.

There - one thousand percent - has been manipulation with School outbreak data

ShineOn7

ShineOn7 wrote: »

There - one thousand percent - has been manipulation with School outbreak data

Because you say so.

There was excellent data from return in March until the it issues hit. Evidence otherwise is anecdotal at best and more resembles hysteria than anything else.

ShineOn7

Deleted User wrote: »

Because you say so.

Because glack above said so

Because others in this thread have said so too

Are they all liars?

Remember when they would put the increase in cases down to "household outbreaks" when the Schools returned?

It was a "household" case alright, in so much that many of them were brought into the household via the Schools

JDD

I do think that Midnight Sundance has a valid grievance here. If a child has a cough, and no temperature, they school should insist that the parents call the GP.

Now, the GP may decide that the child does not need a covid test. In my experience my GP is very relaxed and seems to be reluctant to send children for tests unless they have another symptom along with the cough. It appears to me that GPs have been told to look for two symptoms in children.

All the same, even if the child's GP doesn't think a covid test is warranted, the child should stay home until a) the cough is gone or b) the cough is still there but the GP has signed off that the child is fine to return to school.

All the above has been implemented in our child's primary school and they are religious about it. We haven't had an outbreak at all - just one positive child during the Christmas holidays and one in March - and there are over 500 children in the school.

khalessi

JDD wrote: »

I do think that Midnight Sundance has a valid grievance here. If a child has a cough, and no temperature, they school should insist that the parents call the GP.

Now, the GP may decide that the child does not need a covid test. In my experience my GP is very relaxed and seems to be reluctant to send children for tests unless they have another symptom along with the cough. It appears to me that GPs have been told to look for two symptoms in children.

All the same, even if the child's GP doesn't think a covid test is warranted, the child should stay home until a) the cough is gone or b) the cough is still there but the GP has signed off that the child is fine to return to school.

All the above has been implemented in our child's primary school and they are religious about it. We haven't had an outbreak at all - just one positive child during the Christmas holidays and one in March - and there are over 500 children in the school.

If a child shows one symptom of Covid they should be tested, not all children with covid have temperatures. So yup while it is an inconvenience it is part of Health and Safety protocol

JDD

khalessi wrote: »

If a child shows one symptom of Covid they should be tested, not all children with covid have temperatures. So yup while it is an inconvenience it is part of Health and Safety protocol

I see your point, but I guess GPs have been told to look for two symptoms in order not to overwhelm the testing system with children who have normal seasonal coughs. I'm not saying it's right, but I'm assuming someone with more info than you or me on the matter made this decision at some stage.

khalessi

JDD wrote: »

I see your point, but I guess GPs have been told to look for two symptoms in order not to overwhelm the testing system with children who have normal seasonal coughs. I'm not saying it's right, but I'm assuming someone with more info than you or me on the matter made this decision at some stage.

No that chnged GPs were told one symptom, it was 2 in the beginning but since last Sept it has been just one symptom, get child tested

wirelessdude01

See that school in Drogheda was finally allowed to close. They wanted to do that a few days ago.

Locotastic

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

See that school in Drogheda was finally allowed to close. They wanted to do that a few days ago.

Our local secondary closed last Friday due to outbreaks, haven't seen much reported in media about schools having to close either, yet I know ours isn't the only one.

When I say they closed, it was more like we're here but we are also online and end of year exams will be made available online. Not officially closed but please don't attend kind of thing.

Over half of the school population had already been pulled out anyway due to cases, close contacts or just parental concern. I had already removed mine when it became apparent that things were starting to get bad, so they managed a grand total of 3 weeks in the building this year so far.

We had zero cases in the schools where I am since the start, up until after Easter holidays.

JDD

We had zero cases in the schools where I am since the start, up until after Easter holidays

In fairness we had really low cases across the country from September to early November, and even the 1k daily peak just before November came down fairly quickly until it started to rise again at the end of December.

Whereas now we've had a steady 300-500 a day for weeks on end, so there's bound to be a bit more of the virus in the community than there was in Q4 last year.

I completely understand you taking your children out of school when there's an outbreak. I'd do the same. Not that I would think that they would end up in hospital or anything, but I wouldn't want to catch it off them before I got my first vaccine, and I'd be worried about the small chance of long covid symptoms for them.

I do wonder why people want localised school closures splashed all over the papers and on the RTE news though? I understand the worry that open schools would act as a firestarter for widespread community transmission, leading to massive hospitalisations and deaths in the vulnerable populations, but aren't we past that now? A school closing in Blanchardstown or Wexford doesn't have the same connotations as it did six months ago. The vulnerable (medically speaking) are mostly all vaccinated now. Having the closure in the media would just unnecessarily fuel anxiety.

ShineOn7

HSE data released today shows Schools/Childcare facilities to have the most amount of outbreaks and cases*

They'll surely have to start looking at vaxxing the kids from September onwards, the States are doing this already

All Schools are closed from next Wednesday I believe which gives us more R0 to play with. We'll fecking need it with Delta on the rise

The numbers for Nursing homes, Community hospitals etc are very encouraging for vaccines in general


(* I'm not sure what period these figures cover upto Saturday, it doesn't say. A week maybe?)

jimmytwotimes 2013

ShineOn7 wrote: »

Schools are safe

ShineOn7

ShineOn7 wrote: »

HSE data released today shows Schools/Childcare facilities to have the most amount of outbreaks and cases*

They'll surely have to start looking at vaxxing the kids from September onwards, the States are doing this already

All Schools are closed from next Wednesday I believe which gives us more R0 to play with. We'll fecking need it with Delta on the rise

The numbers for Nursing homes, Community hospitals etc are very encouraging for vaccines in general


(* I'm not sure what period these figures cover upto Saturday, it doesn't say. A week maybe?)

What setting would one imagine has the fewest number of vaccinations? Tough one that

jimmytwotimes 2013

[Deleted User] wrote: »

What setting would one imagine has the fewest number of vaccinations? Tough one that

What setting would one imagine will still have the fewest vaccinations by September? Tough one that

jimmytwotimes 2013

jimmytwotimes 2013 wrote: »

What setting would one imagine will still have the fewest vaccinations by September? Tough one that

Hmm, if only the only 18s are unvaccinated come September how much of a problem will we have?

vid36

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Hmm, if only the only 18s are unvaccinated come September how much of a problem will we have?

Quite a lot if current experiences in England are replicated here.One quarter of schoolchildren in Greater Manchester are currently isolating.

vid36

vid36 wrote: »

Quite a lot if current experiences in England are replicated here.One quarter of schoolchildren in Greater Manchester are currently isolating.

There is a major disconnect. Those who believe it’s nothing, and those who believe any virus is the end of the world. If transmission is only happening in the very young, there is no significant issue. We are only a couple of months away from there

khalessi

Deleted User wrote: »

There is a major disconnect. Those who believe it’s nothing, and those who believe any virus is the end of the world. If transmission is only happening in the very young, there is no significant issue. We are only a couple of months away from there

Well Deepti Gurdasani would disagree with you in regards to there being no significant issue, based on the incidences of long covid in children, as would Zoe Hyde but sure they're probably wrong and don't know as much about Covid as you do.

khalessi

khalessi wrote: »

Well Deepti Gurdasani would disagree with you in regards to there being no significant issue, based on the incidences of long covid in children, as would Zoe Hyde but sure they're probably wrong and don't know as much about Covid as you do.

I can’t believe this discussion is ongoing, and sometimes think those in the restrictions thread may be on to something. At this stage we all know loads of people who have had the virus. We all know schools where there were cases. We have no evidence than post viral conditions associated with Covid occur in larger numbers with children than with any other virus. And the evidence of Zoe Hyde is around long Covid in hospitalised patients. The numbers are tiny in school age.

And to be honest, on top of this, if the vast majority of adults are vaccinated, transmission into and between schools will be significantly interrupted anyway reducing impacts further

CruelSummer

khalessi wrote: »

Well Deepti Gurdasani would disagree with you in regards to there being no significant issue, based on the incidences of long covid in children, as would Zoe Hyde but sure they're probably wrong and don't know as much about Covid as you do.

Children are not seriously affected by Covid. Why would they have to take a vaccine that poses more of a risk to them than Covid itself? Especially when all those at risk are vaccinated.

History Queen

CruelSummer wrote: »

Children are not seriously affected by Covid. Why would they have to take a vaccine that poses more of a risk to them than Covid itself? Especially when all those at risk are vaccinated.

Some of them are at risk. Some of them live in houses with people who cannot be vaccinated. Some parents don't want to risk their child being the unlucky one who suffers long term effects. There are lost of reasons to vaccinate (and not as the case may be). Sweeping statements help no one.

CruelSummer

History Queen wrote: »

Some of them are at risk. Some of them live in houses with people who cannot be vaccinated. Some parents don't want to risk their child being the unlucky one who suffers long term effects. There are lost of reasons to vaccinate (and not as the case may be). Sweeping statements help no one.

Exactly. Your sweeping statements re children actually just describe a tiny minority of children in a tiny percentage of situations. Sweeping statements that all children should have to take a vaccine that poses more risk to them than Covid will help no one.

History Queen

CruelSummer wrote: »

Exactly. Your sweeping statements re children actually just describe a tiny minority of children in a tiny percentage of situations. Sweeping statements that all children should have to take a vaccine that poses more risk to them than Covid will help no one.

What sweeping statement did I make? What do you mean the vaccine poses more risk to children than covid?

wirelessdude01

CruelSummer wrote: »

Exactly. Your sweeping statements re children actually just describe a tiny minority of children in a tiny percentage of situations. Sweeping statements that all children should have to take a vaccine that poses more risk to them than Covid will help no one.

What risks does it pose to them?

Lumen

The CFR for kids was about 0.15% in a large US study. We have about 1.2m kids.

If 60% become cases, as you might expect eventually if we can't eliminate Covid through adult vaccination, that's about a thousand dead kids.

How many would the vaccine kill?

https://www.chop.edu/news/study-involving-seven-major-children-s-hospitals-shows-covid-19-typically-mild-children

Lumen

Lumen wrote: »

The CFR for kids was about 0.15% in a large US study. We have about 1.2m kids.

If 60% become cases, as you might expect eventually if we can't eliminate Covid through adult vaccination, that's about a thousand dead kids.

How many would the vaccine kill?

https://www.chop.edu/news/study-involving-seven-major-children-s-hospitals-shows-covid-19-typically-mild-children

Please read the article being used to support your point before posting. 0.15% of those with pre existing conditions.

beggars_bush

jimmytwotimes 2013 wrote: »

Schools are safe

Norma? Is that you?

Lumen

Deleted User wrote: »

Please read the article being used to support your point before posting. 0.15% of those with pre existing conditions.

I did read it but may have misunderstood.

"the researchers examined electronic health records from 135,794 pediatric patients who had been tested for SARS-CoV-2 up to September 8, 2020. Of those tested, 5,374 (4.0%) were positive for the virus.
...
Of the 5,374 patients who tested positive, ... Overall, 8 patients who tested positive died, resulting in a case fatality rate of 0.15%."

Are you saying all of those 5,374 had pre existing conditions?

It seems like every child who gets sick from Covid will be a paediatric patient, but not all will have pre-existing conditions.

I guess there is bias, so what's the CFR for the whole population of children?

Lumen

Lumen wrote: »

I did read it but may have misunderstood.

"the researchers examined electronic health records from 135,794 pediatric patients who had been tested for SARS-CoV-2 up to September 8, 2020. Of those tested, 5,374 (4.0%) were positive for the virus.
...
Of the 5,374 patients who tested positive, ... Overall, 8 patients who tested positive died, resulting in a case fatality rate of 0.15%."

Are you saying all of those 5,374 had pre existing conditions?

It seems like every child who gets sick from Covid will be a paediatric patient, but not all will have pre-existing conditions.

I guess there is bias, so what's the CFR for the whole population of children?

135,794 pediatric patients who had been tested for SARS-CoV-2

These were children already in the hospital system

khalessi

Deleted User wrote: »

These were children already in the hospital system

Crikey you would wonder how they got there with their long Covid? Did it just magically appear?

khalessi

khalessi wrote: »

Crikey you would wonder how they got there with their long Covid? Did it just magically appear?

This was a study of children in hospital for all reasons, not a study of children in hospital for covid.

4% of the children in the hospital systems studied tested positive for covid, and 7% of the 4% developed serious illness

khalessi

Deleted User wrote: »

This was a study of children in hospital for all reasons, not a study of children in hospital for covid.

4% of the children in the hospital systems studied tested positive for covid, and 7% of the 4% developed serious illness

I did quote Dr Gabriel Scally a while ago from a radio interview, saying 1 in 8 primary children got Long Covid and 1 in 7 secondary when discussing Covid in Britain. Interesting figures though i am sure due to the difference in severity of the illness not all ended up in hospital. We cannot look at figures here due to the curtain of GDPR.

Why are you and CS always so dismissive?

It happens and at the moment in adults they are noticing an issue with decreasing grey matter being replaced with white matter. It is a small number but should not be ignored.
I am glad you arent in power otherwise people with CF in this country would be ignored because CF occurs in 1 in 20 people here (1 in 16 Cork).

I find it interesting you are quick to dismiss any mention of continuing illnesses that dont match your utopic view.

JDD

So this is the last day for most primary schools.

Should we see a drop in case numbers in two weeks time to reflect the lack of circulation of the virus within schools? I think we should - given we'll have approx 600,000 children not on top of each other every day. What do we all think? Perhaps any drop will be masked by the inevitable increase due to the Delta variant?

selectamatic

The vast majority of primary schools on the east side of the country will be open till the 30th

jrosen

Schools here open until the 30th.

I think with society open again any drop in cases we may have seen from schools being closed will be made up by adults and families mixing.

CruelSummer

khalessi wrote: »

I did quote Dr Gabriel Scally a while ago from a radio interview, saying 1 in 8 primary children got Long Covid and 1 in 7 secondary when discussing Covid in Britain. Interesting figures though i am sure due to the difference in severity of the illness not all ended up in hospital. We cannot look at figures here due to the curtain of GDPR.

Why are you and CS always so dismissive?

It happens and at the moment in adults they are noticing an issue with decreasing grey matter being replaced with white matter. It is a small number but should not be ignored.
I am glad you arent in power otherwise people with CF in this country would be ignored because CF occurs in 1 in 20 people here (1 in 16 Cork).

I find it interesting you are quick to dismiss any mention of continuing illnesses that dont match your utopic view.

Dr Gabriel Scally’s quote, I heard that interview on ISAG loving Claire Byrne and immediately checked it out - is FALSE. No one from the broadcasting authority pulled him up on it though.
It was in fact 1 in 7 of hospitalised children. He deliberately misleads as per the leaked ISAG emails suggesting they do just this.

seamus

khalessi wrote: »

Why are you and CS always so dismissive?

You can probably throw me in there too.

I wouldn't say I'm dismissive of long covid, but I am skeptical. The data around it is incredibly incomplete, with all sorts of figures being thrown around. One study saying 1 in 20. Other studies saying that's it affects 1 in 20 of those who end up in hospital.

My biggest reservation of all of these studies is a lack of any comparative data. They follow people who've had covid and then ask them at varying intervals whether they've still had symptoms - headaches, fatigue, cough, etc.

What they don't do is take a sample of the population who haven't had covid and ask them the same questions.

Thus we don't know what baseline of people persistently or chronically suffer these symptoms anyway. And it's especially important to ask these questions at a time when everyone's lives have been turned upside down, and stress levels are high.

I don't deny that long covid is a thing. I'm just not convinced that it's particularly novel.

In any case, if long covid was the only outcome of covid (as opposed to death), them we would never have locked down the country or closed the schools. So it's never going to fly as a reason why we should maintain restrictions.

khalessi

seamus wrote: »

You can probably throw me in there too.

I wouldn't say I'm dismissive of long covid, but I am skeptical. The data around it is incredibly incomplete, with all sorts of figures being thrown around. One study saying 1 in 20. Other studies saying that's it affects 1 in 20 of those who end up in hospital.

My biggest reservation of all of these studies is a lack of any comparative data. They follow people who've had covid and then ask them at varying intervals whether they've still had symptoms - headaches, fatigue, cough, etc.

What they don't do is take a sample of the population who haven't had covid and ask them the same questions.

Thus we don't know what baseline of people persistently or chronically suffer these symptoms anyway. And it's especially important to ask these questions at a time when everyone's lives have been turned upside down, and stress levels are high.

I don't deny that long covid is a thing. I'm just not convinced that it's particularly novel.

In any case, if long covid was the only outcome of covid (as opposed to death), them we would never have locked down the country or closed the schools. So it's never going to fly as a reason why we should maintain restrictions.

I dont just mean of Long Covid but of any mention that children can get Covid, instantly dismissed, almost pathalogical.

ShineOn7

beggars_bush wrote: »

Norma? Is that you?

Pretty sure, based on Jimmy's follow up post. that he was being sarcastic

khalessi

khalessi wrote: »

I dont just mean of Long Covid but of any mention that children can get Covid, instantly dismissed, almost pathalogical.

Where? In your imagination?

hesaidshesaid

Deleted User wrote: »

Where? In your imagination?

Genuine question - do you have any involvement at all with schools? On-site lived experience as opposed to data collection or analysis, I mean.

hesaidshesaid

hesaidshesaid wrote: »

Genuine question - do you have any involvement at all with schools? On-site lived experience as opposed to data collection or analysis, I mean.

Yes, now what has that got to do with unnecessary hype over “long covid” in children

khalessi

Deleted User wrote: »

Yes, now what has that got to do with unnecessary hype over “long covid” in children

So what is it you do in schools? Oh it might be my imagination but that seems to be a derogatory and unnecessary comment about Long Covid but anyways.

Jinglejangle69

Lads, schools have shown to be safe.

Most teachers will be vaccinated come September.

I think it's time we moved on for all our sanity.

khalessi

Jinglejangle69 wrote: »

Lads, schools have shown to be safe.

Most teachers will be vaccinated come September.

I think it's time we moved on for all our sanity.

I would disagree with that statement as would most people who work in them. Huge issues around how this was dealt with and continues to be dealt with in schools.

Holidays in a few days phew, but the Dept announced just before secondary schools went on holidays they will be providing some carbon monitors to schools, but no date give when.

Schools have asked for hepa air purifirers and carbon monitors since December and have been ignored. Now they're being sent some monitors not enough and Dept wont be using the standard of 800ppm for C02 levels but instead 1400-1600ppm. Another ticking the box exercise and they've told us that the monitor can be moved to a different room whenever:rolleyes: Meanwhile they object to going back to the Dail as it is detrimental to their health. Hmmmm