Irish journalist leaves China after rise in surveillance, lovely government

archer22

Jeez it never ceases to amaze me the amount of gullible idiots and half wits we have in the west who soak up American propaganda and run with it like its a divine revelation!.

And the way the Yanks can turn them on and off like a light switch :eek:

For example a few years ago the Yanks had them all ranting and raving about how "nasty and evil" North Korea was..then North Korea and America had some talks and all the shock horror yarns about NK suddenly ceased.

Then China started out competing America in every field..aaand surprise surprise the shock horror yarns about them went into full throttle, and the flaming torch and pitchfork brigades were off again

I will give America one thing, they truly have mastered propaganda down to a fine art and a science and get value for vast resources they devote to it..unfortunately though they have rotted and totally corrupted our media in the process.And that will probably be beyond repair.

archer22

archer22 wrote: »

Jeez it never ceases to amaze me the amount of gullible idiots and half wits we have in the west who soak up American propaganda and run with it like its a divine revelation!.

And the way the Yanks can turn them on and off like a light switch :eek:

Ahh well, any media, and especially, anything driven by a government should be questioned.. The negative spin from the US, Australia, etc should be taken with an awareness that they have their own agendas at play. However, in the cases of N.Korea, and China, you can be pretty sure that they should be watched carefully.

But then, I do think people should be also careful when it comes to the US, since it sometimes feels that their focus on other nations is an attempt to draw attention away from their own issues, whether that's US political corruption, civil rights, their war commitments, etc. The US really shouldn't be placed on any pedestal that excuses it from similar watchfulness.

Still, I wouldn't trust either N.Korea or China... but then I don't trust the US either.

Beta Ray Bill

Deleted User wrote: »

You could just stick with communism.. no need to include fascism.. since communism ticks all of those boxes all by itself. Although, China is simply an Authoritarian state, with sprinkles of Maoism/Communism, and a very strong capitalist oligarchy backbone.

As for Europe, "People" weren't fighting fascism, except for the communists. People were fighting the territorial expansion of the Axis, otherwise Germany would have been stopped after Austria or Czechoslovakia. Let's leave out the propaganda.

Modern China is not spreading any kind of ideology, and will be stopped because they're a threat to Western (US) influence in Asia, and the territorial expansion that will eventually come.

Just to be clear, No country has ever gone full Capitalism / Communism / Fascisms / Socialism. It's just not possible to do.

Fascism is such a dirty word, that in political/diplomatic circles, the word isn't even used to describe enemies.



There's a quick chart I made on it.
What you call yourself and what you actually are, aren't necessarily the same thing.
As mentioned already, no country exists where the pink dots are (IE the extreme)

The blur between Fascism and Communism is where the states that have committed some of the worst atrocities in human history reside.

The Nazi's and the Russians weren't actually all that different, One person in charge, Military heavily involved in politics, state provided many things and had a set price in various commodities. The VW Beetle is a very good example of this, a car for all.

Gatling

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Still, I wouldn't trust either N.Korea or China... but then I don't trust the US either.

China and NK are one and the same China Keeps lil Kim and his father before him under strict control , China will never allow a unified Korea to exist even if Koreans did ,
It's not propaganda ,nk only exists as buffer between South Korea and America ,
But is it American propaganda that china have claimed the whole South China sea as theirs ,no it's fact based off a map that was found in an old school book

Beta Ray Bill

Beta Ray Bill wrote: »

Just to be clear, No country has ever gone full Capitalism / Communism / Fascisms / Socialism. It's just not possible to do.

Well, that's lovely... since I didn't make any such claim.

China went originally for nationalism (not fascism), then inspired by communism, went for maoism, and has since embraced capitalism, under a Oligarchic system, while retaining a lot of the power structures from Maoism.

There's a quick chart I made on it.

Which is irrelevant.

The Nazi's and the Russians weren't actually all that different, One person in charge, Military heavily involved in politics, state provided many things and had a set price in various commodities. The VW Beetle is a very good example of this, a car for all.

Again, never said they weren't similar. Nazi's being National Socialist as opposed to being Mussolini's Fascism.

Gatling

Gatling wrote: »

China and NK are one and the same China Keeps lil Kim and his father before him under strict control , China will never allow a unified Korea to exist even if Koreans did ,

They're not one and the same, since N.Korea has managed to bring attention to the region which China wouldn't want, considering their own moves to expand their influence. While China wouldn't be bothered by N.Korea's flareups with Japan, they wouldn't be wanting an increase in US military in S.Korea, which is what Kim keeps managing to do, in spite of repeated efforts by the US to reduce their presence there. If Kim left things alone for a few years, China would be a lot happier, taking away attention for them to do their own things.

It's not propaganda ,nk only exists as buffer between South Korea and America

N. Korea's nukes are well capable of hitting all major population zones within mainland China. They're allies, and while N.Korea is a lesser ally, somewhat dependent on China economically speaking, should Kim decide to go it alone, that would make China extremely uncomfortable. Here's a little thing to consider... both China and N.Korea have military units and fortifications on the border between N.Korea and China.. It's not the close relationship you seem to believe. More a matter of convenience, and a lack of better options. It''s not as if China has a lot of choices in allies for the region...

Although, yes, China wouldn't want to see N.Korea be taken over by either the South, or the US.

But is it American propaganda that china have claimed the whole South China sea as theirs ,no it's fact based off a map that was found in an old school book

Part of their "map" is due to the claims given after both WW1 and WW2, both times during which they were screwed by the Allies (and from what I've read, they were actually screwed). There's a range of islands and sea territory which should have left Imperial Japanese control and been passed to China after the war... but the Allies left them in the hands of Japan or assigned to other nations.

But yes, a large part of it is based off ancient claims.. which are rather worthless. All the same, you're being awfully selective. Japan and N.Korea have loads of territorial disputes in the region, as does Vietnam with Japan. Hell, most of the nations in the region claim large parts of the South China Sea for themselves regardless of international considerations. China is not alone in behaving this way.. and were simply the first to implement the artificial islands. Japan has been seeking to do similar themselves in a couple of places.

archer22

Deleted User wrote: »

They're not one and the same, since N.Korea has managed to bring attention to the region which China wouldn't want, considering their own moves to expand their influence. While China wouldn't be bothered by N.Korea's flareups with Japan, they wouldn't be wanting an increase in US military in S.Korea, which is what Kim keeps managing to do, in spite of repeated efforts by the US to reduce their presence there. If Kim left things alone for a few years, China would be a lot happier, taking away attention for them to do their own things.



N. Korea's nukes are well capable of hitting all major population zones within mainland China. They're allies, and while N.Korea is a lesser ally, somewhat dependent on China economically speaking, should Kim decide to go it alone, that would make China extremely uncomfortable. Here's a little thing to consider... both China and N.Korea have military units and fortifications on the border between N.Korea and China.. It's not the close relationship you seem to believe. More a matter of convenience, and a lack of better options. It''s not as if China has a lot of choices in allies for the region...

Although, yes, China wouldn't want to see N.Korea be taken over by either the South, or the US.



Part of their "map" is due to the claims given after both WW1 and WW2, both times during which they were screwed by the Allies (and from what I've read, they were actually screwed). There's a range of islands and sea territory which should have left Imperial Japanese control and been passed to China after the war... but the Allies left them in the hands of Japan or assigned to other nations.

But yes, a large part of it is based off ancient claims.. which are rather worthless. All the same, you're being awfully selective. Japan and N.Korea have loads of territorial disputes in the region, as does Vietnam with Japan. Hell, most of the nations in the region claim large parts of the South China Sea for themselves regardless of international considerations. China is not alone in behaving this way.. and were simply the first to implement the artificial islands. Japan has been seeking to do similar themselves in a couple of places.

Absolutely correct but that is never mentioned, instead the narrative is put forward that China has grabbed all the islands there, which is false.

The others in the dispute occupy a lot of them and also claim what each other have and in at least one case Vietnam grabbed an Island from the Philippines when Filipino soldiers temporarily left the island and returned later to find the Vietnamese army in possession of it.
The only reason there is not a regional war between all the claimants is because there is a big Dog, China in the fight,the rest are all fairly evenly matched and would likely fancy their chances against each other.

This is a very complicated dispute not the simple black and white issue as portrayed by western propaganda.

Gatling

archer22 wrote: »

Absolutely correct but that is never mentioned, instead the narrative is put forward that China has grabbed all the islands there, which is false.

They claim they own the whole South China sea this is fact right up to other countries shore lines ,this isn't disputed ,nor is building a Fortified airbase on a reef and looking at doing more ,
Don't see other countries doing that ,

But America yada yada yada

Gatling

Gatling wrote: »

They claim they own the whole South China sea this is fact right up to other countries shore lines ,this isn't disputed ,nor is building a Fortified airbase on a reef and looking at doing more ,

Yup. You're correct. They have claimed all that territory, and have built artificial islands. I'm not disagreeing that China has a very strong expansionist policy for the entire region. Although, in some cases, their claims do have some validity, since China prior to the Japanese invasion did control those territories, but the Allies didn't return them after the war. Now, I'm not suggesting that most of their claims are legitimate, because they're not... still.. some are, and they've been kinda screwed on more than a few occasions by international treaties in the past.

But then, so too have most other nations in the region have expansionist interests, although their desires are more "moderate" and yet, not acceptable by international standards either.

Don't see other countries doing that ,

Not to the same extent, but they are the major power in the region.

How about this? The US decided that South America was beyond the interests of European nations. That was a pretty big declaration, and pretty much guaranteed US dominance on the continent for over a 100 years. It's how major powers behave, and China has been watching how western powers have behaved for a long time.

But America yada yada yada

But America what? America engages in wars? Yup. America started an illegal war, pulling in many other countries, based on lies and doctored information? Yup. America bypassed human rights and the rights of people in warzone's with the use of Guantanamo bay? Yup.

Now.. I'm not seeking to downplay China's behavior.. so why are you so quick to downplay American behavior? Just so China can be the bad guy? Everyone already knows that China is the bad guy in Asia...

Kermit.de.frog

Bit of Father Ted about this one...

https://twitter.com/TheresaAFallon/status/1400018346280689665

guy2231

Housefree wrote: »

The UK have an award winning journalist locked up for telling the truth who will probably end up rotting away in a US prison, hopefully not the Guantanamo Bay torture center. Freedom of the press died in the west when they went after Julian Assange

It's a shame journalists in the west have to travel to the other side of the world to be able to report the truth, most of us know quite well reporting on the truth in the UK would not fly either.

caoty

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s54jr7uKnM0
7：00



What the "critical thinking crowd" in the "free world" were told and believed at that time, e.g.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politics/2277791.stm
History repeats itself.

Positions of Security Council members:

US: The US maintained that Iraq was not cooperating with UN inspectors and had not met its obligations to 17 UN resolutions. If Iraq failed to comply with the "one final chance to comply" provision of Resolution 1441, then military action would be the result.

UK: The primary supporter of the US plan to invade Iraq

France: Foreign Minister Dominique de Villepin said, "We think that military intervention would be the worst possible solution," although France believed that Iraq may have had an ongoing chemical and nuclear weapons program. Villepin went on to say that he believed the presence of UN weapons inspectors had frozen Iraq's weapons programs.

Russia: Russian Foreign Minister Igor Ivanov said that "Russia deems that there is no evidence that would justify a war in Iraq.". Putin continued to stress that the US must not go alone in any such military endeavor, but instead must work through the UN Security Council.

China: On January 23, Foreign Ministry spokeswoman Zhang Qiyue said Beijing was "worried and uneasy about the large-scale military build-up" in the Gulf region and that China's position on potential war with Iraq was "extremely close" to France's. Chinese officials repeatedly spoke in support of a diplomatic solution, including continued weapons inspections.

Germany - On January 22, German chancellor Gerhard Schröder, at a meeting with French president Jacques Chirac, said that he and Chirac would do all they could to avert war. At the time, Germany was presiding over the Security Council.
Angola - Angola supported continued inspections, but had not taken a stand on disarmament by military action.
Bulgaria - Bulgaria suggested that it would support the use of military force to disarm Iraq, even without UN backing.
Cameroon - Cameroon encouraged the continued inspections, but had not taken a firm stand on whether the country would support a US led strike to invade Iraq.
Chile - Chile indicated that it would like inspections to continue, but had not taken a position on the use of military force to disarm Iraq.
Guinea - Guinea supported further inspections, but had not taken a position on the use of military force to disarm Iraq.
Mexico - Mexico supported further inspections, and hinted that it would support a US-led military campaign if it were backed by the UN. The country also hinted that it might consider supporting a military campaign without UN backing as well. President Vicente Fox heavily criticized the war when it started and Mexican diplomats described their conversations with US officials as hostile in tone and that Washington was demonstrating little concern for the constraints of the Mexican government whose people were overwhelmingly opposed to the war with Iraq. (USA Today)
Pakistan - Pakistan supported continued inspections.
Syria - Syria felt that Iraq was cooperating and meeting its obligations under UN resolutions. Syria would have liked to see the crippling UN sanctions on Iraq lifted.
Spain - Spain supported the US's position on Iraq and supported the use of force to disarm Iraq, even without UN approval.

Ocer

In China, we say It is better to travel ten thousand miles than to read ten thousand books. Seems like we know the west way more than the west knew us, which is great, I hope most of them in their dreams forever.

Ocer

Ocer wrote: »

In China, we say It is better to travel ten thousand miles than to read ten thousand books. Seems like we know the west way more than the west knew us, which is great, I hope most of them in their dreams forever.

haha... most Chinese are completely clueless about both Western society, and our politics. When all your books are censored by your government, I can see why you wouldn't read so much. (Yes, I know from personal experience what it's like to publish in China, and the level of censorship involved.)

gw80

Ocer wrote: »

In China, we say It is better to travel ten thousand miles than to read ten thousand books. Seems like we know the west way more than the west knew us, which is great, I hope most of them in their dreams forever.

Sorry but I couldn't read that without putting on a Chinese accent,
Did I just do a racism?

Ocer

Deleted User wrote: »

haha... most Chinese are completely clueless about both Western society, and our politics. When all your books are censored by your government, I can see why you wouldn't read so much. (Yes, I know from personal experience what it's like to publish in China, and the level of censorship involved.)

So arrogant:eek: Who gives a **** about Western society and your politics??? liars and murderers, that's all. Maybe Irish Government is not a murderer regarding Ireland never output wars to other countries. Maybe that's why I choose here to enjoy my retired time.

China is not the US, Chinese people only interested in making money and wonderful food. You and your country are totally safe, we have not bombed any country for now.

CCP leads the right way in the past 30 years, made the 1.4 Billion population country No.2 at the moment. CCP made Chinese people getting rich, their life quality is getting way better than ever. So we are very happy with CPP's govern. Overtaking the US is only a matter of time. You will see, I wish you good health.:D

An Ri rua

joseywhales wrote: »

This is what you get for saving them from the mass murdering japanese empire. They have selective memory.

A man's gotta know his limitations, Josey

Ocer

gw80 wrote: »

Sorry but I couldn't read that without putting on a Chinese accent,
Did I just do a racism?

No, you are grand, I also read that like Master Shifu in Kung Fu Panda~

BloodBath

Ocer wrote: »

So arrogant:eek: Who gives a **** about Western society and your politics??? liars and murderers, that's all. Maybe Irish Government is not a murderer regarding Ireland never output wars to other countries. Maybe that's why I choose here to enjoy my retired time.

China is not the US, Chinese people only interested in making money and wonderful food. You and your country are totally safe, we have not bombed any country for now.

CCP leads the right way in the past 30 years, made the 1.4 Billion population country No.2 at the moment. CCP made Chinese people getting rich, their life quality is getting way better than ever. So we are very happy with CPP's govern. Overtaking the US is only a matter of time. You will see, I wish you good health.:D

On track to overtake them within the next 5 years. China will be miles ahead of them in 10 years.

political analyst

Housefree wrote: »

The UK have an award winning journalist locked up for telling the truth who will probably end up rotting away in a US prison, hopefully not the Guantanamo Bay torture center. Freedom of the press died in the west when they went after Julian Assange

That's BS. Assange is a creep. He dodged prosecution for alleged rape in Sweden by jumping bail in London.

political analyst

Ocer wrote: »

So arrogant:eek: Who gives a **** about Western society and your politics??? liars and murderers, that's all. Maybe Irish Government is not a murderer regarding Ireland never output wars to other countries. Maybe that's why I choose here to enjoy my retired time.

China is not the US, Chinese people only interested in making money and wonderful food. You and your country are totally safe, we have not bombed any country for now.

CCP leads the right way in the past 30 years, made the 1.4 Billion population country No.2 at the moment. CCP made Chinese people getting rich, their life quality is getting way better than ever. So we are very happy with CPP's govern. Overtaking the US is only a matter of time. You will see, I wish you good health.:D

The legacy of the one-child policy means that, not far into the future, China will have a severe imbalance between the birth rate and the number of elderly people, thus causing an economic crisis. The collapse of the Chinese economy would be good news for those people who are persecuted by the Chinese government.

Ocer

Ocer wrote: »

So arrogant:eek: Who gives a **** about Western society and your politics??? liars and murderers, that's all.

You did, when you posted previously.

China is not the US, Chinese people only interested in making money and wonderful food. You and your country are totally safe, we have not bombed any country for now.

haha... hilarious. In any case, I don't believe that China has any interest in fighting anyone in Europe. Extending themselves that far would result in a shift of power within China, and encourage civil unrest leading to civil war. So, no, I have no fear for my country.

CCP leads the right way in the past 30 years, made the 1.4 Billion population country No.2 at the moment. CCP made Chinese people getting rich, their life quality is getting way better than ever. So we are very happy with CPP's govern. Overtaking the US is only a matter of time. You will see, I wish you good health.:D

Only 30 years? Deng Xiaoping opened China up in the late 70s. In any case, most of the successes of that opening up, and the subsequent economic zones, managed to succeed due to local businesses and luck. Not the CCP, although it did help somewhat.. and hindered quite a bit too.

Very few people are "happy" with the governance of the CCP. There's just no other choice, and most people will tiptoe along hoping that the CCP doesn't pay much attention to them directly.

As for the US.. yeah.. no. Not going to happen. I live in China. haha. I know the state of living for the people in the countryside, and the poor in the cities. I've seen the migrant workers, and I know that they're all rather old.. and then I know how "hard" Chinese students study, the ineptitude of most Chinese university programs, and lastly, the layers of corruption within Chinese business.

China hasn't changed., beyond the most superficial of ways. Some people look at the glittering lights and think so much has changed, but in reality, very little has. And that's why China will never be a genuine threat to the US, unless, the US manages to screw themselves, and decrease their own power significantly. Which is very possible. But then, I expect something similar from China too. What do think will happen when Xi Jinping dies? Oh. Boy. That's going to be rough for China.

political analyst

political analyst wrote: »

The legacy of the one-child policy means that, not far into the future, China will have a severe imbalance between the birth rate and the number of elderly people, thus causing an economic crisis. The collapse of the Chinese economy would be good news for those people who are persecuted by the Chinese government.

Follow through on that logic. Those who are persecuted live within government facilities/territories (like Tibet/Mongolia), and are managed by government officials. The collapse of the Chinese economy would mean a drastic reduction in food, medicine, and services made available to them... without any kind of guarantee that the Chinese government would stop persecuting them.

Wish people would put some thought into the consequences of these kind of events. The collapse of the Chinese economy would be extremely bad for Chinese people (of all backgrounds), for all foreigners living within their borders, and it's extremely unlikely that it would affect the CCP too much. They're far too established within Chinese society, and Chinese culture places great emphasis on remembering the famines, and poor times (so that they show how wonderful the CCP were).

Beta Ray Bill

Deleted User wrote: »

I know the state of living for the people in the countryside, and the poor in the cities. I've seen the migrant workers, and I know that they're all rather old.. and then I know how "hard" Chinese students study, the ineptitude of most Chinese university programs, and lastly, the layers of corruption within Chinese business.

You could actually be describing the USA there.

Beta Ray Bill

Beta Ray Bill wrote: »

You could actually be describing the USA there.

Not really. The US doesn't have the layers of corruption that exists within Chinese culture. Oh, it has some, but it's not even close to what exists in China, and that affects productivity and innovation drastically. Nor does the US have the kind of population that China has... that's important. Such a population requires so much in terms of resources, and many of the systems in China haven't changed much in centuries, where the focus is on cheap replaceable labor, but their nature of their demographics has changed in the last four decades, so, those systems will be lacking manpower as time goes by.

There are always going to be some similarities, but China is incredibly different from the US.

Beta Ray Bill

Deleted User wrote: »

Not really. The US doesn't have the layers of corruption that exists within Chinese culture. Oh, it has some, but it's not even close to what exists in China, and that affects productivity and innovation drastically. Nor does the US have the kind of population that China has... that's important. Such a population requires so much in terms of resources, and many of the systems in China haven't changed much in centuries, where the focus is on cheap replaceable labor, but their nature of their demographics has changed in the last four decades, so, those systems will be lacking manpower as time goes by.

There are always going to be some similarities, but China is incredibly different from the US.

I'm not so sure.
The biggest employer, contract provider in the US is the USA government specifically the Military. There is all sorts of corruption there to ensure that the companies make product X have some parts of those products made in US state Y. Like you said though its probably not as bad as in China, but I wouldn't think it would be miles away.

US also depends on cheap labour (however I dunno if the word replaceable applies to the US), do you mean like if people die or are injured doing their job then then tough?

I agree with you though in terms of the ratio of humans to flat arable land, the US has China trumped. I think they have them trumped in Natural resources too.

Beta Ray Bill

Beta Ray Bill wrote: »

I'm not so sure.
The biggest employer, contract provider in the US is the USA government specifically the Military. There is all sorts of corruption there to ensure that the companies make product X have some parts of those products made in US state Y. Like you said though its probably not as bad as in China, but I wouldn't think it would be miles away.

There's a difference between corporate culture, and national culture.

US also depends on cheap labour (however I dunno if the word replaceable applies to the US), do you mean like if people die or are injured doing their job then then tough?

There are internal migrant swarms in China of millions of people who move with the seasons for agriculture... That's what I mean by cheap labor. Although there are many other examples of it. Every city has various areas where the temporary workers congregate (I know of five different places in Xi'an, which will all be crowded by 7am.. and mostly have older aged groups). Think of the US during the great depression. You'll see thousands of men and women, carrying construction or painting, or cleaning equipment, while waiting around for potential employers. I've been to parts of the US where this happens, but you're looking at dozens of people hanging around. The scale is so different.

I agree with you though in terms of the ratio of humans to flat arable land, the US has China trumped. I think they have them trumped in Natural resources too.

I said nothing about humans to flat/arable land. China does have serious problems with land/water pollution.. but they're working on their problems, including dealing with desertification issues. I wouldn't underestimate the Chinese in dealing with it. They've made great strides in dealing with the consequences of industrialization.

In terms of natural resources, I doubt it. China has loads of untapped resources, preferring to import resources from abroad while the international markets were cheap, thus retaining their natural reserves. The US has been burning through its own resources for 7 decades.

Ocer

Deleted User wrote: »

You did, when you posted previously.



haha... hilarious. In any case, I don't believe that China has any interest in fighting anyone in Europe. Extending themselves that far would result in a shift of power within China, and encourage civil unrest leading to civil war. So, no, I have no fear for my country.



Only 30 years? Deng Xiaoping opened China up in the late 70s. In any case, most of the successes of that opening up, and the subsequent economic zones, managed to succeed due to local businesses and luck. Not the CCP, although it did help somewhat.. and hindered quite a bit too.

Very few people are "happy" with the governance of the CCP. There's just no other choice, and most people will tiptoe along hoping that the CCP doesn't pay much attention to them directly.

As for the US.. yeah.. no. Not going to happen. I live in China. haha. I know the state of living for the people in the countryside, and the poor in the cities. I've seen the migrant workers, and I know that they're all rather old.. and then I know how "hard" Chinese students study, the ineptitude of most Chinese university programs, and lastly, the layers of corruption within Chinese business.

China hasn't changed., beyond the most superficial of ways. Some people look at the glittering lights and think so much has changed, but in reality, very little has. And that's why China will never be a genuine threat to the US, unless, the US manages to screw themselves, and decrease their own power significantly. Which is very possible. But then, I expect something similar from China too. What do think will happen when Xi Jinping dies? Oh. Boy. That's going to be rough for China.

Oh, sorry to hear that you live in China and not happy with your life, I think you are not a foodie or do not like Chinese food. And thank you so much for your concern about Chinese people's living.

You can keep your China Collapse theory, the western is talking about it for 30 years, someone published a book about it I remember, but we still there, even better than ever. Time will tell the truth, we will see. Again, I wish you good health.:D

Ocer

Deleted User wrote: »

There's a difference between corporate culture, and national culture.



There are internal migrant swarms in China of millions of people who move with the seasons for agriculture... That's what I mean by cheap labor. Although there are many other examples of it. Every city has various areas where the temporary workers congregate (I know of five different places in Xi'an, which will all be crowded by 7am.. and mostly have older aged groups). Think of the US during the great depression. You'll see thousands of men and women, carrying construction or painting, or cleaning equipment, while waiting around for potential employers. I've been to parts of the US where this happens, but you're looking at dozens of people hanging around. The scale is so different.



I said nothing about humans to flat/arable land. China does have serious problems with land/water pollution.. but they're working on their problems, including dealing with desertification issues. I wouldn't underestimate the Chinese in dealing with it. They've made great strides in dealing with the consequences of industrialization.

In terms of natural resources, I doubt it. China has loads of untapped resources, preferring to import resources from abroad while the international markets were cheap, thus retaining their natural reserves.

There are internal migrant swarms in China of millions of people who move with the seasons for agriculture

Yes, you are right, not only for the seasons for agriculture, for every work can make money. If you are alive and moveable, then get a job to feed yourself and your family. Begging is a shame in Chinese culture.

The US has been burning through its own resources for 7 decades.

No, the US has been burning countries in the Arabic world for 30 years.

I do not know why you hate China so deep. Did China do any bad thing to you or your country, or other countries? bombed anyone? Made any refugee?

Beta Ray Bill

Deleted User wrote: »

There are internal migrant swarms in China of millions of people who move with the seasons for agriculture... That's what I mean by cheap labor.

I was unaware of this.
It's not what I think of when I think of China, or see how China portrays itself in the media.