Elisa O'Donovan reports mass goers to gardai

stefanovich

stefanovich wrote: »

Have the gardai nothing better to do? Opinions?

I think they recieved a complaint and responded then dealt with the legal breach in accordance with legislation.

Is that not their job?

breezy1985

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

I think they recieved a complaint and responded then dealt with the legal breach in accordance with legislation.

Is that not their job?

Some catholics in Ireland are still struggling to get used to the idea that the Gardai now investigate when people report the crimes of the church

Insect Overlord

breezy1985 wrote: »

It's the catholic connection I was wondering about. Hadn't heard about his religious leanings before.
The confraternity in Limerick is another oddity of the fake piusness of Limerick

That's worthy of a thread of its own. The photographs of the crowds and processions in annuals like 'A Stroll Down Memory Lane' and 'The Old Limerick Journal' are well worth a look. Similar to events like the Novena, the numbers involved in the city were incredible.

Duke O Smiley

breezy1985 wrote: »

Are they part of the catholic church in the sense that catholics can go there to pray and receive mass?
Are they sanctioned by the pope?
If they do not follow the teachings of the church do the church advise followers that they are not part of the roman catholic church and not to attend mass in their premises?
Do they have pontifical right?

Yes to all of those things, but my point still stands. You clearly do not know a thing about these groups but could not resist an uneducated and uninformed pop at “the church”

They offer a very particular form of mass that is not celebrated in Irish churches anymore. Anyone who wants to attend this type of mass is advised by their respective bishop not to do so at an ICKSP, SSPX or FSSP church though, which is telling. They only received papal approbation about ten years ago, yet they were established over 30 years ago.

If the Limerick Leader article on this affair is at all correct, the guards showed up, asked the people to leave, and they left without issue. They then asked the church to turn off their loud speakers and the priest obliged and seemingly alluded that he wouldn’t resume public masses until he was allowed to do so. I’m actually surprised by this because it’s not usually like them to listen to temporal authority like that. On this basis I’d find it hard to believe O’Donovan’s narrative that they were accosting and abusing passers-by without provocation, or at all.

On top of a bishop who actively promotes lockdown and safeguarding of public health to his faithful, what exactly is so wrong with this? How are the church acting holier than thou in this situation? Indeed, have you anything to suggest that an Irish bishop or church leader (any major denomination) has actively called for faithful to contravene lockdown rules? Apart from a few rogue priests scattered about the country

breezy1985

Duke O Smiley wrote: »

Yes to all of those things, but my point still stands.

They offer a very particular form of mass that is not celebrated in Irish churches anymore. Anyone who wants to attend this type of mass is advised by their respective bishop not to do so at an ICKSP, SSPX or FSSP church though, which is telling. They only received papal approbation about ten years ago, yet they were established over 30 years ago.

If the Limerick Leader article on this affair is at all correct, the guards showed up, asked the people to leave, and they left without issue. They then asked the church to turn off their loud speakers and the priest obliged and seemingly alluded that he wouldn’t resume public masses until he was allowed to do so. I’m actually surprised by this because it’s not usually like them to listen to temporal authority like that. On this basis I’d find it hard to believe O’Donovan’s narrative that they were accosting and abusing passers-by without provocation, or at all.

On top of a bishop who actively promotes lockdown and safeguarding of public health to his faithful, what exactly is so wrong with this? How are the church acting holier than thou in this situation? Indeed, have you anything to suggest that an Irish bishop or church leader (any major denomination) has actively called for faithful to contravene lockdown rules? Apart from a few rogue priests scattered about the country

Ok so yes they are an official part of the church so all your trying to distance them from it is BS
People have lost their jobs after not following the rules and others have been suspended. If the church do similar here I will be happy to agree with your few bad eggs theory.

But to be honest I didn't not think many will be fooled by the good old church "bad eggs" stuff that they tried pull in the past

Duke O Smiley

breezy1985 wrote: »

Ok so yes they are an official part of the church so all your trying to distance them from it is BS
People have lost their jobs after not following the rules and others have been suspended. If the church do similar here I will be happy to agree with your few bad eggs theory.

But to be honest I didn't not think many will be fooled by the good old church "bad eggs" stuff that they tried pull in the past

I’m not defending them at all. I’m merely pointing out that absurdity of inferring that the actions of a minute crowd of blow ins with a questionable history are somehow representative of “the church” in Limerick or in Ireland en masse. No less in a diocese led by a bishop who openly and actively supports current lockdown measures.

Add a bit of substance to your original claim that the Church are acting holier than thou in regards to current lockdown rules. As it stands it is merely uninformed and biased rubbish.

Just in case you missed the last bit of my last post: have you anything to suggest that an Irish bishop or church leader (any major denomination) has actively called for faithful to contravene lockdown rules? Apart from a few rogue priests scattered about the country

Have you?

breezy1985

Duke O Smiley wrote: »

I’m not defending them at all. I’m merely pointing out that absurdity of inferring that the actions of a minute crowd of blow ins with a questionable history are somehow representative of “the church” in Limerick or in Ireland en masse. No less in a diocese led by a bishop who openly and actively supports current lockdown measures.

Add a bit of substance to your original claim that the Church are acting holier than thou in regards to current lockdown rules. As it stands it is merely uninformed and biased rubbish.

Just in case you missed the last bit of my last post: have you anything to suggest that an Irish bishop or church leader (any major denomination) has actively called for faithful to contravene lockdown rules? Apart from a few rogue priests scattered about the country

Have you?

No I haven't heard of any bishop call for breaking of the law but I am calling them out on their complete lack of action on these rogue priests. Those blow ins are part of the organization in the same way Cork,Down and Dublin GAA are seeing as you brought it up
Why are these as you claim small few rogue priests not removed from their posts?
Why is this group of blow ins given papal permission to represent the church and in one of the most prominent sites in Limerick?

You have already tried to mislead people once by pretending this group were not related to the church and have edited posts to try make me look like a liar.
You then try shut the conversation down by claiming you definitively know more than anyone else on this thread about the church

Duke O Smiley

breezy1985 wrote: »

No I haven't heard of any bishop call for breaking of the law but I am calling them out on their complete lack of action on these rogue priests. Those blow ins are part of the organization in the same way Cork,Down and Dublin GAA are seeing as you brought it up
Why are these as you claim small few rogue priests not removed from their posts?
Why is this group of blow ins given papal permission to represent the church and in one of the most prominent sites in Limerick?

You have already tried to mislead people once by pretending this group were not related to the church and have edited posts to try make me look like a liar.
You then try shut the conversation down by claiming you definitively know more than anyone else on this thread about the church

Do you know what, you are right. For anyone who has never heard of ICKSP before, my initial posts would suggest that they aren’t connected to the RC Church, but they are in full communion with the church in Rome. To my mind that goes without saying and subliminally it never occurred to me to make that clear.

To infer that their actions were representative of “the church” in Limerick or in Ireland is simply a fallacy of composition, like the “bad egg” theory, and it does nothing more than highlight an uninformed, unread and biased opinion on the matter at hand.

While the position of ICKSP within the worldwide church may be undoubted and secure, their practices are far, far removed from the norms of “the church” in Limerick. I can say this with some semblance of authority because I’ve studied this area very well, and also because the bishop of Limerick had shown, through his own actions, that the actions of ICKSP are not reflective of those of the church or diocese. Whether you or anyone else would like to accept this is your own prerogative of course.

Whether or not anything will be done about it remains to be seen too of course. The media have certainly done a great job of highlighting the inaction of bishops against rogue priests, but the media don’t have the whole picture too of course. I think there is more to come yet on this front. I can’t quite see what Brendan Leahy might need to do in relation to this affair though. The church and those gathered seemingly complied with directions to cease. If anything I suppose the Guards have done his job for him, which is grand, presuming they alerted before he was.

breezy1985

Duke O Smiley wrote: »

To infer that their actions were representative of “the church” in Limerick or in Ireland is simply a fallacy of composition, like the “bad egg” theory, and it does nothing more than highlight an uninformed, unread and biased opinion on the matter at hand.

Whether or not anything will be done about it remains to be seen too of course. The media have certainly done a great job of highlighting the inaction of bishops against rogue priests, but the media don’t have the whole picture too of course. I think there is more to come yet on this front. I can’t quite see what Brendan Leahy might need to do in relation to this affair though. The church and those gathered seemingly complied with directions to cease. If anything I suppose the Guards have done his job for him, which is grand, presuming they alerted before he was.

There you go again on your high horse thinking your opinion holds more weight then everyone else's. My opinion is biased yes but not uninformed or unread. You don't need to be disciple to understand the church.

Also you again seem to be suggesting that no action should be taken against priests who break the law and direction of the church. The church at the end of the day is responsible for anyone authorised to speak in the name of the church

Duke O Smiley

breezy1985 wrote: »

There you go again on your high horse thinking your opinion holds more weight then everyone else's. My opinion is biased yes but not uninformed or unread. You don't need to be disciple to understand the church.

Also you again seem to be suggesting that no action should be taken against priests who break the law and direction of the church. The church at the end of the day is responsible for anyone authorised to speak in the name of the church

No disrespect, but nothing you have said so far suggests that you have any knowledge or understanding of “the church” or its politics and policies. So far, to my mind, you have only established that ICKSP are in full communion with the RC Church and that because of their actions in Limerick, the entire “church” in Ireland considers itself above reproach in regards to lockdown rules (composition fallacy). A discussion of this nature, biases aside, is certainly a level playing field for all involved, but I’m not going to discount my knowledge and experience in this field just because. Similarly I wouldn’t start arguing with a rabbi or imam about the structures of their respective adherences and expect them to discount their knowledge and experience just because I don’t have any.

I am not at all suggesting that no action be taken against rogue priests. I stated that the media have highlighted the inaction of the bishops, because the bishops have been so conspicuously inactive. You don’t know that internal investigations are not happening already in Limerick or elsewhere. For now though the secular authorities are on top of and have handled these situations very well - fines have been issued, groups dispelled etc. Should that not be the primary concern of the concerned here? Would you be happy if the Guards said, “ah sure we’ll leave this to the church authorities to sort out among themselves”

breezy1985

Duke O Smiley wrote: »

No disrespect, but nothing you have said so far suggests that you have any knowledge or understanding of “the church” or its politics and policies. So far, to my mind, you have only established that ICKSP are in full communion with the RC Church and that because of their actions in Limerick, the entire “church” in Ireland considers itself above reproach in regards to lockdown rules (composition fallacy). A discussion of this nature, biases aside, is certainly a level playing field for all involved, but I’m not going to discount my knowledge and experience in this field just because. Similarly I wouldn’t start arguing with a rabbi or imam about the structures of their respective adherences and expect them to discount their knowledge and experience just because I don’t have any.

I am not at all suggesting that no action be taken against rogue priests. I stated that the media have highlighted the inaction of the bishops, because the bishops have been so conspicuously inactive. You don’t know that internal investigations are not happening already in Limerick or elsewhere. For now though the secular authorities are on top of and have handled these situations very well - fines have been issued, groups dispelled etc. Should that not be the primary concern of the concerned here? Would you be happy if the Guards said, “ah sure we’ll leave this to the church authorities to sort out among themselves”

Your talk of rabbis and imams isnt a fair comparison. I would not argue with them either because I don't understand their religion but I grew up in Ireland which has Catholicism all over it's schools and you can't walk 5 mins without coming across some cross or Mary statue. A country where every second referendum has the holy joes jumping up and down and trying to protect their right to meddle in others lives so I think ya I know plenty about the catholic church

No the Gardai should not leave it but the church should also sort it's house out. You talk about these rogue priests like there is nothing can be done about them as if they are a force of nature.

Sort your flock out or people will continue to attack the church based on the actions of those authorised to speak for it

yop

Mod Note: Duke and Breezy take it to PM as its just a ding dong on this thread please. Ta

Umekichi

Duke O Smiley wrote: »

They offer a very particular form of mass that is not celebrated in Irish churches anymore. Anyone who wants to attend this type of mass is advised by their respective bishop not to do so at an ICKSP, SSPX or FSSP church though, which is telling.

I don't understand why though? SSPX I understand, given their canonically irregular status(and blatant sedevecantism) but ICKSP seem to be in line with the pope since at least 2008. Likewise with the FSSP. Neither of those orders appear sedevecantist.

Obviously, there is a demand for the tridentine mass, I know it was done away with in vatican 2 but surely couldn't it be offered by mainline churches, even if it was a monthly thing if these orders are so bad? I attended sacred heart for mass pre-lockdown and when mass was allowed in 2020 and it was unlike any other mass I have been to. I left it, actually feeling something unlike modern masses, where I felt nothing.

stefanovich

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

I think they recieved a complaint and responded then dealt with the legal breach in accordance with legislation.

Is that not their job?

Which legislation are you referring to and does it even apply to the church?

BingCrosbee

Most of the people who gathered there were brought up in the brain wash era of the Catholic Church. They take every shi.e the church throws at them. If you put a dog collar on a mass murderer they would still bow down to him. Thank God those days are gone and education has produced a different Irish person who can form their own opinion without being preached to to.

Duke O Smiley

Umekichi wrote: »

I don't understand why though? SSPX I understand, given their canonically irregular status(and blatant sedevecantism) but ICKSP seem to be in line with the pope since at least 2008. Likewise with the FSSP. Neither of those orders appear sedevecantist.

Obviously, there is a demand for the tridentine mass, I know it was done away with in vatican 2 but surely couldn't it be offered by mainline churches, even if it was a monthly thing if these orders are so bad? I attended sacred heart for mass pre-lockdown and when mass was allowed in 2020 and it was unlike any other mass I have been to. I left it, actually feeling something unlike modern masses, where I felt nothing.

It is generally the position of the Irish bishops to remain suspicious of traditionalist groups. ICKSP in Limerick have close connections to some questionable characters such as Fr. John Hunwicke who is known to express some very unsavoury opinions of Pope Francis, IMO he is a closet sede. Generally within these societies and institutes one does not need to scratch too far beneath the surface to find some semblance of sede, or at least unfavourable opinions of the hierarchy.

There is certainly a great desire for Tridentine celebrations these days, generally from a much younger cohort, and it is facilitated - in my view - by the increasing numbers of seminarians and newly ordained priests over the last number of years, who tend to be coming from Rome and not Maynooth. There is generally a diocesan apostolate for TLM in most dioceses, but outside of places like Dublin and Galway they are monthly affairs and not daily or even weekly.

TLM is a great thing, and in the future it will occupy a far greater position in the Church in Ireland than it does currently, a more prominent diocesan uptake is inevitable.

Silentcorner

BingCrosbee wrote: »

Most of the people who gathered there were brought up in the brain wash era of the Catholic Church. They take every shi.e the church throws at them. If you put a dog collar on a mass murderer they would still bow down to him. Thank God those days are gone and education has produced a different Irish person who can form their own opinion without being preached to to.

That's a good one!!!!

Does anyone else see the funny side of this little battle....

The mass goers are todays rebels....

Todays conformists are now the pious folk treating the rebels with disgust!

We've just switched ideology...

I see no difference in the today's feminists with the nuns of the past....we need to be saved from the sinners!

We haven't learned a thing!

Topgear on Dave

I'm finding this hilarious too.

They seem to have been moved on more for their political views than any threat to public health.

MarkR

This seems to have veered off into, as Dougal would describe it, an ecumenical matter.

If you'd like to discuss the religious topics that are in this thread, please take it to the appropriate forum.

Umekichi

Topgear on Dave wrote: »

I'm finding this hilarious too.

They seem to have been moved on more for their political views than any threat to public health.

Its starting to seem that way, given the crowds yesterday by King John's Castle and the fact that no one bothered to move them.

source

Just drove through The Crescent about 10 minutes ago and there was a sizable crowd outside the church again. I'd say about 40 people gathered on either footpath and on the central island.

adaminho

Umekichi wrote: »

Its starting to seem that way, given the crowds yesterday by King John's Castle and the fact that no one bothered to move them.

Except the Guards were called and did move everyone on!

jpharvey

source wrote: »

Just drove through The Crescent about 10 minutes ago and there was a sizable crowd outside the church again. I'd say about 40 people gathered on either footpath and on the central island.

Edgelords. Were the speakers blasting out the mass?

Loafing Oaf

jpharvey wrote: »

Edgelords. Were the speakers blasting out the mass?

A guerilla mass like this

source

jpharvey wrote: »

Edgelords. Were the speakers blasting out the mass?

Not that I heard and I didn't see any priests, it was a heap of people kneeling and standing facing the church.

Umekichi

adaminho wrote: »

Except the Guards were called and did move everyone on!

I heard that they didn't bother. Glad to see they did!

theballz

yop wrote: »

Ya it was a page an hour ago

Lads for the sake of each other just keep it civil. Religion can be a touchy subject at the best of times, and then Covid added to the mix is just going to leave strong opinions.
Remember that there are many opinions on here and you're not going to agree with some of them, but pls respect them.
Lots are under pressure, stress etc including on these forums so respect that too.

Cheers.

I think religion is a coping mechanism, I don’t necessarily mean that as a bad thing, some people need a way to cope, something to help modify their behavior.

Personally I was raised Catholic, I left religion when I was in my early/mid teens. I consider myself an Agnostic or Agnostic-Atheist. Highly religious people generally irritate me, I can’t stand self righteousness which I find very common among religious folk. I view religion the same way I view sexuality, I don’t care if you are Christian or not, just as I don’t care if you are gay or not. But the minute you try pushing your religion or sexuality on me, become preachy or pushy, or make your religion or sexuality your personality then I have a problem.

Religion probably does keep many people in line and it provides hope. The most telling thing that I have noticed is a correlation with nations become more degenerate, liberal, and overall worse the less religious they’ve gotten.

So overall my opinion on religion is that it’s not for me and I could write a book on why I’m not a believer and why I find the core of religious to be based on evil and how I don’t like how it smoothers human nature etc. I can’t deny that it’s had a positive impact on culture and stability.

jaxxx

MarkR wrote: »

This seems to have veered off into, as Dougal would describe it, an ecumenical matter.

If you'd like to discuss the religious topics that are in this thread, please take it to the appropriate forum.

Is there anything to be said for another mass?

Clareman

jaxxx wrote: »

Is there anything to be said for another mass?

No there isn't, not in here anyway. I can't see any value in keeping this thread open any longer.

If people want to post funny pics, there's a forum for that with a very popular thread in it.
If people want to post funny gifs, again there's a forum with a very popular thread for just that.
If people want to discuss religion, there's a forum for that, in fact you can either have Christianity or World Religions.
If people want to discuss atheism, there's a forum for that.
If people want to discuss COVID in Limerick, we've a thread for that
If people want to discuss other COVID issues, there's a forum for that also.