Belfast Disturbances

Tell me how

schmittel wrote: »

Do we really want this? If the price of a UI is giving up our national flag and national anthem, and whatever else about our national identity and culture triggers Unionists, is it a price worth paying?

I am not convinced it is. I am certain that if the price includes some sort of all island power sharing agreement with the DUP sitting at cabinet irrespective of their vote numbers, then that is far too high a price for me to stomach.

You probably wouldn't be alone. But, iirc, the GFA calls for specific exploration of how our Union heritage would be acknowledged and celebrated within a new UI.

One thing we have seen with Brexit, is just how problematic things are if left until a decision has been made before discussing such things. Some days I think Brexit itself has delayed any serious talk of a UI for at least a generation, but then when I see things like what is going on in the north as a consequence of Brexit, I think it might have moved it forward.

There's another thread on here about a UI, it's probably bringing this discussion too far off topic to go in to it much further here.

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

Probably the same reason you said that he moved away from it when he became moderate.
We were both wrong.
I have admitted I was wrong but our resident republican (surprise surprise) can never admit wrong.

Where did I say 'he moved away form it'?

I said 'Look at the journey Ian Paisley made' as part of a list of things that have changed. Unionists behaving on the 12th - The move away from the Orange Order and the Journey Ian Paisley made in his life. All separate things.

You made a boo boo downcow, don't make it worse.

briany

Tell me how wrote: »

You probably wouldn't be alone. But, iirc, the GFA calls for specific exploration of how our Union heritage would be acknowledged and celebrated within a new UI.

One thing we have seen with Brexit, is just how problematic things are if left until a decision has been made before discussing such things. Some days I think Brexit itself has delayed any serious talk of a UI for at least a generation, but then when I see things like what is going on in the north as a consequence of Brexit, I think it might have moved it forward.

There's another thread on here about a UI, it's probably bringing this discussion too far off topic to go in to it much further here.

Maybe mods can move it over, but I just wanted to say that the DUP probably wouldn't come to the negotiating table and discuss in good faith what they wanted a UI to look like. Being that the concept of a UI is fundamentally unacceptable to them, I don't think they'd really be prepared to talk about helping build one. Arlene Foster has said at least twice that I know of that she'd probably move (presumably to Britain, but she didn't specify) in the event, and I suspect that a few likeminded people would follow suit.

But, in the event of a UI, the DUP should not be allowed to postpone the thing by being steadfastly intransigent. Talks over what the new country would look like would have to be held with representatives of each representative party and brought back for votes in the NI assembly, which by that time would most likely by majority Irish Nationalist or non-aligned.

FrancieBrady

schmittel wrote: »

Do we really want this? If the price of a UI is giving up our national flag and national anthem, and whatever else about our national identity and culture triggers Unionists, is it a price worth paying?

I am not convinced it is. I am certain that if the price includes some sort of all island power sharing agreement with the DUP sitting at cabinet irrespective of their vote numbers, then that is far too high a price for me to stomach.

Unionists will have to stand for election like everyone else.

hometruths

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Unionists will have to stand for election like everyone else.

No problem with that. But what I fear is some sort of guaranteed power/representation. I'll comment more in the other thread.

Tpcl20

Tpcl20 wrote: »

Jesus christ they brought out the water cannons the minute the Nationalists came out with a few stones.

The loyalists have been there for a week setting shyte alight and nothing but as soon as a few from the other side appear it's the literal big guns.

Disgusting.

If you ever want to know who's doing the messing just look at the injury numbers. You'll never see double digit cops injured and no "civilians" if it's on the Fall Road.

10000maniacs

I wonder why Unionists are so agitated? Could it be something to do with this?
This graph is based on the 2011 NI census. If you follow the trend 10 years on to the 2021 census which happened last week (has not been published yet), a united Ireland must be within grasp at this stage.

Bobeagleburger

10000maniacs wrote: »

I wonder why Unionists are so agitated? Could it be something to do with this?
This graph is based on the 2011 NI census. If you follow the trend 10 years on to the 2021 census which happened last week (has not been published yet), a united Ireland must be within grasp at this stage.

Surprised so many identify as religious.

Saying that, the same happens here too, but the people don't actually practice, they were just baptised(or whatever the equivalent) into it.

I'd imagine that No Religion category will continue to grow,

10000maniacs

6 wrote: »

Surprised so many identify as religious.

Saying that, the same happens here too, but the people don't actually practice, they were just baptised(or whatever the equivalent) into it.

Up there, religion is more of a badge than a spiritual thing to many.

tastyt

You just know the powers that be in the uk are probably encouraging and egging on our politicians to get the whole United Ireland conversation moving and moving fast

They would love to get rid of the problem and smile at us and pat us on the back as we take it away for them

BanditLuke

Go home loyalists. You are wanted or welcome in our country anymore.

Bobeagleburger

BanditLuke wrote: »

Go home loyalists. You are wanted or welcome in our country anymore.

They are home. Isn't that the whole point....

Bobeagleburger

10000maniacs wrote: »

Up there, religion is more of a badge than a spiritual thing to many.

For now. Let's see what it's like in 30/40 years.

Del.Monte

10000maniacs wrote: »

I wonder why Unionists are so agitated? Could it be something to do with this?
This graph is based on the 2011 NI census. If you follow the trend 10 years on to the 2021 census which happened last week (has not been published yet), a united Ireland must be within grasp at this stage.

While religion generally defines what tribe you belong to in Northern Ireland it is not the full picture and assuming all RCs are Republicans and all Protestants are Unionists would be an over simplification. Simply outbreeding the Protestant population does not equal a United Ireland. Anyway, despite what some on here would try to push, a United Ireland with a significant pro-Union rump would not exactly be a recipe for harmony into the future.

onrail

10000maniacs wrote: »

Up there, religion is more of a badge than a spiritual thing to many.

Indeed. I filled in my census form as Catholic for me, my wife and son despite being agnostic at best. Also said I was an Irish speaker despite not speaking a word past leaving cert. Mates did the same

10000maniacs

Del.Monte wrote: »

While religion generally defines what tribe you belong to in Northern Ireland it is not the full picture and assuming all RCs are Republicans and all Protestants are Unionists would be an over simplification. Simply outbreeding the Protestant population does not equal a United Ireland. Anyway, despite what some on here would try to push, a United Ireland with a significant pro-Union rump would not exactly be a recipe for harmony into the future.

Knock off 10 years to the right, extend 10 years to the left using the same trend, and unionism is in bags of trouble if not now, in the next 10 years.

Del.Monte

onrail wrote: »

Indeed. I filled in my census form as Catholic for me, my wife and son despite being agnostic at best. Also said I was an Irish speaker despite not speaking a word past leaving cert. Mates did the same

Why, especially the language thing?

Atlantic Dawn

Tesla need to build a factory up there.

onrail

Del.Monte wrote: »

Why, especially the language thing?

Numbers for the team! I'm not even a native, but you end up a bit entrenched even in 'middle of the road' areas

maebee

downcow wrote: »

No doubt.
Republicans never admit wrongdoing eg story funeral and Francie above

I'm not a Sinn Féin supporter but they did apologise:-

https://www.belfastlive.co.uk/news/bobby-storey-funeral-sinn-feins-20304528

Frank Bullitt

Incredible front page...

Bobeagleburger

onrail wrote: »

Indeed. I filled in my census form as Catholic for me, my wife and son despite being agnostic at best. Also said I was an Irish speaker despite not speaking a word past leaving cert. Mates did the same

Off topic slightly, but with the baptism barrier now gone the Catholic stranglehold on religion in Ireland will fall off a cliff. Census's in the not so distant future will reflect this. A lot of kids growing up now as non religious.

Del.Monte

6 wrote: »

Off topic slightly, but with the baptism barrier now gone the Catholic stranglehold on religion in Ireland will fall off a cliff. Census's in the not so distant future will reflect this. A lot of kids growing up now as non religious.

Monty Python's song from "The Meaning of Life" contains these lyrics which have a certain ring of truth to them i.e. no matter whether you're a church goer or not you belong to your tribe and there's no escape.



I'm a Roman Catholic
And have been since before I was born

And the one thing they say about Catholics is:
They'll take you as soon as you're warm

You don't have to be a six-footer
You don't have to have a great brain
You don't have to have any clothes on
You're a Catholic the moment Dad came

RandomViewer

maebee wrote: »

I'm not a Sinn Féin supporter but they did apologise:-

https://www.belfastlive.co.uk/news/bobby-storey-funeral-sinn-feins-20304528

£2k in fines is the max the PSNI could have gotten from the funeral before it came out that they liased with SF in the days running up to the funeral so the whole thing was sanctioned, so any moaning afterwards is just moaning for the sake of it.

downcow

maebee wrote: »

I'm not a Sinn Féin supporter but they did apologise:-

https://www.belfastlive.co.uk/news/bobby-storey-funeral-sinn-feins-20304528

The did not accept any wrongdoing

batman75

Boris Johnson has a lot to answer for. A lot of the rioting from Loyalists is I think panic. They are realising maybe for the first time ever that England doesn't give a hoot about them. Johnson had to know that leaving the EU was going to put NI in a tricky position. All the more so because NI voted to remain. Leaving the EU meant a trade border of some description. I don't think the Unionist politicians had the wherewithal to understand what hitching their wagon to the brexit horse would entail.
I'm genuinely worried as to where this all goes. It's small scale at the minute compared to the dark days of the 80s and 90s which I remember growing up. I don't have much confidence in the political figures on either side to guide NI through these tricky waters. I see O'Neill as a puppet for Adams and Foster is too entrenched in Unionism to be a true leader of the people in NI.

FileNotFound

Good old shinners were wrong to be at that funeral to start with alright. Even Mary McDonald Trump was there.

Still no excuse for Arlene to be riling up her fan base. Even her last tweet while calling for calm had a go at sinn fein law breakers.

Arlene backed brexit and created the mess where loyalists can only feel on the back foot. You reap what you sow.

Not sure where it goes from here, nationalists in the ascendancy.

Find it funny Mary is in hiding, maybe she should join leaky Leo and leave politics, out with the law breakers.

RandomViewer

batman75 wrote: »

Boris Johnson has a lot to answer for. A lot of the rioting from Loyalists is I think panic. They are realising maybe for the first time ever that England doesn't give a hoot about them. Johnson had to know that leaving the EU was going to put NI in a tricky position. All the more so because NI voted to remain. Leaving the EU meant a trade border of some description. I don't think the Unionist politicians had the wherewithal to understand what hitching their wagon to the brexit horse would entail.
I'm genuinely worried as to where this all goes. It's small scale at the minute compared to the dark days of the 80s and 90s which I remember growing up. I don't have much confidence in the political figures on either side to guide NI through these tricky waters. I see O'Neill as a puppet for Adams and Foster is too entrenched in Unionism to be a true leader of the people in NI.

Sea border is slowing the flow of Loyalist drugs, this is criminality dressed up as political unrest, heroin keeps the Free Presbyterian collection plates full

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

The did not accept any wrongdoing

When you apologise for something it is pretty much implied that you accept you did something wrong.

Five Eighth

DUP’s Leadership of Unionism/Loyalism:
Primary Objective:
Support Brexit and create a clear delineation between NI and Ireland.
Primary Strategy:
Reject Mrs. May’s ‘Soft Brexit’ and support the ERG. This means there is no remaining in the Single Market and/or Customs Union.
Ignore the wishes of majority of NI citizens and business community in pursuit of a ‘Clean Brexit’.
Believe Boris de pfeffel’s promises.
Reality:
Not requiring DUP votes the Tories reach a deal with the EU which creates a regulatory border in the Irish sea.
DUP Response:
Outdo the TUV and shore up core support by blaming the Irish government and the EU.