Belfast Disturbances

RandomViewer

Mimon wrote: »

Britishness always seemed to me to be a very contrived concept.

I know all nationalism including Irishness is in some way contrived but there is usually some sort of cultural similarities that bind a nation together. Seems to me Britishness was promoted as a fake nationality to hold the union together after the act of union.

No problem with unionism as a concept but does not make sense someone from Tyrone say calling themselves British when their ancestors left Britain 300+ years ago.

A lot of their ancesters were little more than indentured servants brought over to serve in the big houses, saved the laird having to acknowledge the existence of the natives,

Jackben75

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qEsFtiruIok

sums t up

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FNmBauXYzgc
Boris

steddyeddy

RobMc59 wrote: »

All British people who believe in the Union consider the people of NI as British and want it to stay that way.

I lived in England for years and call BS on that Rob. Yes the unionists in mainland will routinely state that "Northern Ireland is as British as London". However, outside blanket statements like that they will be found extremely lacking. They don't even put the basic effort into understanding Northern Ireland (a part of the UK) and the history of the troubles there. Also a large overlap exists between Brexit voters and unionists. However, these are acting against unionism so don't really count as unionists.

Hamsterchops

Mimon wrote: »

No problem with unionism as a concept but does not make sense someone from Tyrone say calling themselves British when their ancestors left Britain 300+ years ago.

My understanding is that yes they moved over from Britain (just 12 miles away) and settled on this island, and the connections with said island (just 12 miles away) are still strong, so although they may live in Tyrone there is no reason for them to stop being plugged-into the neighbouring island of Britain.

When you look at it like that, I can certainly understand how they remain British. We on the other hand embarked on a different course, when one hundred years ago when we metaphorically rowed away from Britishness and our connections with the rest of these islands.

Now, if only NI Unionists would disconnect from Britain, renounce their Britishness and become one with us then there would be a clear demarcation between the two islands.

BENDYBINN

Hamsterchops wrote: »

My understanding is that yes they moved over from Britain (just 12 miles away) and settled on this island, and the connections with said island (just 12 miles away) are still strong, so although they may live in Tyrone there is no reason for them to stop being plugged-into the neighbouring island of Britain.

When you look at it like that, I can certainly understand how they remain British. We on the other hand embarked on a different course, when one hundred years ago when we metaphorically rowed away from Britishness and our connections with the rest of these islands.

Now, if only NI Unionists would disconnect from Britain, renounce their Britishness and become one with us then there would be a clear demarcation between the two islands.

But it’s called Great Britain and Northern Ireland......The north isn’t British

downcow

McMurphy wrote: »

In that case, ave a word with your pal so.





Do you think of yourself as a Brit?

If you do, yeah, and that's your absolute right to identify as one.

You can think you're a goldfish for all I care btw.

You are ignoring the question.
Do you accept that I am a Brit?

BluePlanet

I'll just leave this here.
It's from https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2020/04/22/brits-increasingly-dont-care-whether-northern-irel

Del.Monte

steddyeddy wrote: »

I lived in England for years and call BS on that Rob. Yes the unionists in mainland will routinely state that "Northern Ireland is as British as London". However, outside blanket statements like that they will be found extremely lacking. They don't even put the basic effort into understanding Northern Ireland (a part of the UK) and the history of the troubles there. Also a large overlap exists between Brexit voters and unionists. However, these are acting against unionism so don't really count as unionists.

BS, you could equally say that English people don't even put the basic effort into understanding Wales or Scotland and vice versa.

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

'Sorry for going to a funeral?'

Wow, that is some question to ask anyone.

Think about that for a second.

As I have said before, a way to allow people to respect and remember their dead has to be found. The idea that somebody would have to apologise 'for attending a funeral' is quite frankly depraved.

They have apologised for any breaches and would not do it in the same way again btw.

Why would that be absurd.
Michelle O’Neill was part of making rules that said that you must not attend a friends funeral. She told us all numerous times to obey it.
Then she brazingly broke it and attended her friends funeral. Very reasonable to ask her to apologise

McMurphy

downcow wrote: »

You are ignoring the question.
Do you accept that I am a Brit?

If you identify as British who am I to disagree (or care)

You seem to have your insecurities about your Britishness, otherwise you wouldn't be trying to browbeat me into some kind of challenge for me to "accept it"

You're British? Great -fantastic - party time!

trixi001

downcow wrote: »

You are ignoring the question.
Do you accept that I am a Brit?

To be the term Brit always referred to British Government, British Army etc. It was not a term used to describe normal people loving in the North who considered themselves British.

As for you saying you are a Brit...unless you are member of the British Establishment, then no i don't accept you are a Brit.

You can consider yourself to be British if you want, but i will never accept that anyone from Northern Ireland is British - as it is not part of Britain...Britain is England, Scotland & Wales. The UK consists of Britain & Northern Ireland..so i fully accept that you are a UK citizen...

FileNotFound

downcow wrote: »

You are ignoring the question.
Do you accept that I am a Brit?

If you are from the North doesn't that mean you are not a Brit. Rather just a minion of the British empire?

Thus the whole Great Britain & Northern Ireland.

I always understood that Northerners were not Brits. Have never read or seen anything that has told me otherwise (doesn't mean I am right but historically and geographically this seems to be accurate no?)

downcow

McMurphy wrote: »

If you identify as British who am I to disagree (or care)

You seem to have your insecurities about your Britishness, otherwise you wouldn't be trying to browbeat me into some kind of challenge for me to "accept it"

You're British? Great -fantastic - party time!

I couldn’t care less what you think I am. I am challenging your double talk.
The reality is the opposite. You can refer to me as whatever you like, even irish. The fact is that I am legally british

downcow

FileNotFound wrote: »

If you are from the North doesn't that mean you are not a Brit.

Thus the whole Great Britain & Northern Ireland.

I always understood that Northerners were not Brits. Have never read or seen anything that has told me otherwise (doesn't mean I am right but historically and geographically this seems to be accurate no?)

I am british. If I am in trouble abroad it’s the british embassy I need to contact. Court cases have proved that everyone in ni is born as british. Gfa means you can then claim irishness if you wish, which I haven’t done

O'Neill

trixi001 wrote: »

To be the term Brit always referred to British Government, British Army etc. It was not a term used to describe normal people loving in the North who considered themselves British.

As for you saying you are a Brit...unless you are member of the British Establishment, then no i don't accept you are a Brit.

You can consider yourself to be British if you want, but i will never accept that anyone from Northern Ireland is British - as it is not part of Britain...Britain is England, Scotland & Wales. The UK consists of Britain & Northern Ireland..so i fully accept that you are a UK citizen...

Whether you accept it or not is irrelevant. People from Northern Ireland can be British, Irish or both under GFA.

J Mysterio

Shock horror

tayto lover

trixi001 wrote: »

To be the term Brit always referred to British Government, British Army etc. It was not a term used to describe normal people loving in the North who considered themselves British.

As for you saying you are a Brit...unless you are member of the British Establishment, then no i don't accept you are a Brit.

You can consider yourself to be British if you want, but i will never accept that anyone from Northern Ireland is British - as it is not part of Britain...Britain is England, Scotland & Wales. The UK consists of Britain & Northern Ireland..so i fully accept that you are a UK citizen...

The vast majority of them are descendants of Scottish Planters who were given land here and who considered themselves British. Their offspring considered themselves British too. They detest everything Irish in the main.

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

Why would that be absurd.
Michelle O’Neill was part of making rules that said that you must not attend a friends funeral. She told us all numerous times to obey it.
Then she brazingly broke it and attended her friends funeral. Very reasonable to ask her to apologise

Apologising for breaking regulations and causing hurt should be enough for anybody.
Asking somebody to apologise for attending a funeral is an absurd thing to ask for, if you possess any empathy at all.

McMurphy

downcow wrote: »

I couldn’t care less what you think I am. I am challenging your double talk.
The reality is the opposite. You can refer to me as whatever you like, even irish. The fact is that I am legally british

What double talk

You say your British, I agree you're British, and have never once (since you asked me this morning) denied your Britishness, or the right of yourself or anyone else to identify themselves as British.

Here it is this morning where you asked me and I recognised your Britishness.

downcow wrote: »

Great observation. The problem is that posters like McM are using the term to goad my community by implying we are not brits

McMurphy wrote: »

Someone can identify as an Uzbek for all I care downcow, that's a lazy assumption on your part. You've as much right to identify as being British as Biden has to identify himself as Irish.

It still doesn't take away from the fact the British Government couldn't give a dam about you and your loyalist and unionist neighbours, and the uncomfortable fact they did throw you under the bus at the first given opportunity, exactly as was forewarned to unionists from everyone and their dogs would happen.

Take it up with them, not the Irish people who actually argued against Brexit and the predicament you now find yourselves in.

I'm still saying you've as much right to identify as British now as I was then.

Are you just trying to be contrary for the sake of it

tayto lover

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Apologising for breaking regulations and causing hurt should be enough for anybody.
Asking somebody to apologise for attending a funeral is an absurd thing to ask for, if you possess any empathy at all.

Wrong Francie.
You cannot speak out of both sides of your mouth. She did.
She asked people to do stuff that she didn’t do herself and that’s hypocritical.
Apologies afterwards are easy to make, deeds less easy.

steddyeddy

Del.Monte wrote: »

BS, you could equally say that English people don't even put the basic effort into understanding Wales or Scotland and vice versa.

I do say they put no effort into Scotland or Wales. English people as a nation have a proud misunderstanding of their own history and even geography. I don't want to think of the amount of times I had to explain to people in England that a lot of people in Northern Ireland consider themselves British.

McMurphy

FileNotFound

downcow wrote: »

I am british. If I am in trouble abroad it’s the british embassy I need to contact. Court cases have proved that everyone in ni is born as british. Gfa means you can then claim irishness if you wish, which I haven’t done

Grand so its not having you're own identity means you have to pick someone else's

Fair enough I stand corrected.

downcow

McMurphy wrote: »

I don't think that'll stop them tayto, just a hunch mind you.

But his funeral will be very interesting, obviously Arlene will turn down any invitation to attend. What with her uproar about the Sinn Féin funeral.

Watch this space.

I don’t think the royals have quite the same arrogance and self-sense of importance as the shinners, so I suspect they will show more restraint

trixi001

downcow wrote: »

I am british. If I am in trouble abroad it’s the british embassy I need to contact. Court cases have proved that everyone in ni is born as british. Gfa means you can then claim irishness if you wish, which I haven’t done

I am secure enough in my own identity that i don't care if other people see me as being a different identity, i accept that people do not consider that I am Irish , thats their views, they are entitled to them, i know I am Irish.

You should be confident enough in your own identity too that it doesn't matter how other people view you..

The law might say that everyone has the right to be British, Irish or both, but it doesn't say that everyone has to accept that you are..from a legal point of view you can be British, but i don't have to accept the fact you are British..I am fully entitled to believe that everyone born in Ireland is Irish, while still accepting that you have a right to identify as British

You have British Nationality, as that is what they call (Wrongly imho) the nationality is granted to a UK Citizen.

Just shows how little the British Establishment think of NI, which their exclusion of us from everything by using the word British, and even using the term Team GB for the Olympics

I have in the past held a UK Passport too, however don't consider myself British..

The term British should not be used in relation to the UK as it includes NI, and NI simply isn't British in a geographical sense... as it is not part of Britain..

Actually court cases have proved that the GFA and the Citizenship law don't correspond and that the 2 are contradictory,..and that the British government have not upheld their end of the GFA and changed domestic UK law to reflect what was agreed in the GFA - ie people have the right to be British, Irish or Both..

Emma De Souza effectively won her case without the final appeal hearing ever happening, she never had to claim British citizenship to denounce it, the law was changed so she did not have to identify as British, because, she is entitled under the GFA to not be British...further changes to UK domestic law are still required for it to be fully compatible with the GFA

The GFA gives everyone in NI the right to British, Irish or both..

I accept that you have a legal right to be British as does anyone born here, but they also have a legal right not to be British..

Hamsterchops

trixi001 wrote: »

To be the term Brit always referred to British Government, British Army etc. It was not a term used to describe normal people loving in the North who considered themselves British.

Most people up North are The Brits.

As for you saying you are a Brit...unless you are member of the British Establishment, then no i don't accept you are a Brit.

Most people up North are The Brits.

You can consider yourself to be British if you want, but i will never accept that anyone from Northern Ireland is British - as it is not part of Britain...Britain is England, Scotland & Wales. The UK consists of Britain & Northern Ireland..so i fully accept that you are a UK citizen...

Too much room to play with the terms Brits & West Brits for my liking, always used in a derogatory way to make a negative point.

I also hear Britishness is complicated, as a growing number of Scots can testify to as being Scottish but not British, < this even thoughg they are born on the island of Britain :cool:

Same in Wales where a growing number of the population are claiming to be Welsh (and not British). Then in Northern Ireland obviously a majority of the population would have been British right up until recently, and maybe still are?

There is no argument to be had re the Britishness or the NI population, that is their right to do so. This recent thing about telling them that they are NOT BRITISH is all part of a greening process and the coming together if Green & Green (with the Orange left out).

FrancieBrady

tayto lover wrote: »

Wrong Francie.
You cannot speak out of both sides of your mouth. She did.
She asked people to do stuff that she didn’t do herself and that’s hypocritical.
Apologies afterwards are easy to make, deeds less easy.

We know this Tayto.

She apologised.
Nobody else I know has been asked to apologise for going to a funeral. That's an obscenity IMO.

It was clear regs were being breached at other funerals, nobody said anything because we have empathy.... mostly.

People got an apology, several times.

FileNotFound

FrancieBrady wrote: »

We know this Tayto.

She apologised.
Nobody else I know has been asked to apologise for going to a funeral. That's an obscenity IMO.

It was clear regs were being breached at other funerals, nobody said anything because we have empathy.... mostly.

People got an apology, several times.

Since you're opinion isn't the point here - did she break a law she actively brought in?

Should be a simple yes or no really.


People in office don't get to be like other people, call it the downfall of the job or whatever you want.

PokeHerKing

RobMc59 wrote: »

After seeing the aftermath of last nights riots(petrol bombs thrown both ways etc) around the peace gates I think nit picking about Ian Paisley pales into insignificance. How can you imagine a UI is a possibility when its obvious there are insurmountable differences between communities?

Conveniently ignoring these same insurmountable differences when it comes to continued partition :rolleyes:

bilston

Well coming from NI...I see myself as Northern Irish first and foremost and British and Irish in equal measure. I'm quite comfortable in any of those skins. That's the beauty of being from Northern Ireland...that and vaccines:D