Belfast Disturbances

riclad

northern ireland is ruled by the british government,
if you live there you pay taxs to the uk government,
its part of the united kingdom, britain and northern ireland.
in the troubles the british army was on the streets.
yes the nfa means you can claim to be irish or british
of course brexit has been a disaster ,companys are leaving the uk in order to get acess to the eu market and avoid been drowned in paperwork.
if you live there you are ruled by the uk government ,
what has happened is some young people are protesting because loyalists feel
ignored or reduced in status due to the effects of brexit.
brexit can only harm the uk economy in a time where international trade is more important than ever.
i think protestants would indentify as british .
biden identifys as irish-american,
eg he has relatives in ireland.
like some people indentify as chinese american all though they have never visited china.

if someone gets robbed in newry do they call the gardai,
no they call the local police psni .

if at some point there is a vote and the majority vote to do so
northern ireland could leave the uk,
it might happen in 50 years maybe.
if people decide its better to be a member of the eu,
in a united ireland.
since ireland is in the eu, uk is not, there will have to some kind of border control,
to comply with eu regulations on vat, import duty etc

whether you like it or not ni is ruled by the british government,
most non catholics there would consider themselves british.

celt262

riclad wrote: »

northern ireland is ruled by the british government,
if you live there you pay taxs to the uk government,
its part of the united kingdom, britain and northern ireland.
in the troubles the british army was on the streets.
yes the nfa means you can claim to be irish or british
of course brexit has been a disaster ,companys are leaving the uk in order to get acess to the eu market and avoid been drowned in paperwork.
if you live there you are ruled by the uk government ,
what has happened is some young people are protesting because loyalists feel
ignored or reduced in status due to the effects of brexit.
brexit can only harm the uk economy in a time where international trade is more important than ever.
i think protestants would indentify as british .
biden identifys as irish-american,
eg he has relatives in ireland.
like some people indentify as chinese american all though they have never visited china.

if someone gets robbed in newry do they call the gardai,
no they call the local police psni .

if at some point there is a vote and the majority vote to do so
northern ireland could leave the uk,
it might happen in 50 years maybe.
if people decide its better to be a member of the eu,
in a united ireland.
since ireland is in the eu, uk is not, there will have to some kind of border control,
to comply with eu regulations on vat, import duty etc

whether you like it or not ni is ruled by the british government,
most non catholics there would consider themselves british.

Where did you copy and paste that from?

PokeHerKing

downcow wrote: »

I don’t think the royals have quite the same arrogance and self-sense of importance as the shinners, so I suspect they will show more restraint

Get back under your bridge.

Seth Brundle

riclad wrote: »

most non catholics there would consider themselves british.

Is that a fact or just your opinion?

Zebra3

downcow wrote: »

I don’t think the royals have quite the same arrogance and self-sense of importance as the shinners, so I suspect they will show more restraint

LOL as they say.

The British royal family have shown more arrogance than most people in world history. Overseeing a state involved in genocide, ethnic cleansing and war crimes. Oh, and trying to turn China into a nation of opium junkies.

At least the "Shinners" manage to win elections and have a mandate from the people.

Something the British royal family have never done.

RobMc59

steddyeddy wrote: »

I do say they put no effort into Scotland or Wales. English people as a nation have a proud misunderstanding of their own history and even geography. I don't want to think of the amount of times I had to explain to people in England that a lot of people in Northern Ireland consider themselves British.

We all see our own country and its history differently to how we're viewed around the world. (Irish people do this too imo)British people are generally proud of their country's identity and history although many are aware there have been some shameful episodes in that history.This is probably the same for all countries that had a colonial past.

FileNotFound

riclad wrote: »

if at some point there is a vote and the majority vote to do so
northern ireland could leave the uk,
it might happen in 50 years maybe.
if people decide its better to be a member of the eu,
in a united ireland.
since ireland is in the eu, uk is not, there will have to some kind of border control,
to comply with eu regulations on vat, import duty etc
.

I would have serious doubts how many Irish people want Northern ireland to become part of our country at the moment.

NI is kind of that place that nobody seems to really want at the moment bar maybe the shinners.

I wonder is there even a plan for how it could potentially become part of ireland?

I'd say there's a few on both sides fairly anxious of the prospect of waking up one morning to third world health services etc

RandomViewer

Arlene's ancesters were Irish Catholic, how can she even claim Britishness

Tell me how

downcow wrote: »

I don’t think the royals have quite the same arrogance and self-sense of importance as the shinners, so I suspect they will show more restraint

Really? Really really?

RandomViewer

DUP are a religious cult and would consider those they've rioting for them as heathens,

Fr D Maugire

Hamsterchops wrote: »

Too much room to play with the terms Brits & West Brits for my liking, always used in a derogatory way to make a negative point.

I also hear Britishness is complicated, as a growing number of Scots can testify to as being Scottish but not British, < this even thoughg they are born on the island of Britain :cool:

Same in Wales where a growing number of the population are claiming to be Welsh (and not British). Then in Northern Ireland obviously a majority of the population would have been British right up until recently, and maybe still are?

There is no argument to be had re the Britishness or the NI population, that is their right to do so. This recent thing about telling them that they are NOT BRITISH is all part of a greening process and the coming together if Green & Green (with the Orange left out).

Well here is the thing, some 200+ years ago the ancestors of many of the modern British in NI saw themselves first and foremost as Irish. In fact it was they who recognised the mismanagement and corruption of the COI Parliament in Dublin who were answerable to London. They recognised that they would never be more than a secondary class nation as long as they were ultimately answerable to London and that is something that modern Unionist's don't seem to have to cottoned on to.

It was the ancestors of the modern British in NI who first pushed for a Republic separate from Britain, the first to use Green as their colour, yet so much of that history has been simply ignored for the current 'we are British' only mythology. John Hume described the GFA as 'Sunningdale for Slow learners' which was aimed primarily at Unionists. The current situation of being screwed over by London is hardly surprising when they never learned the lessons from their ancestors of over 200 years ago. Slow learners indeed.

Fr D Maugire

RobMc59 wrote: »

We all see our own country and its history differently to how we're viewed around the world. (Irish people do this too imo)British people are generally proud of their country's identity and history although many are aware there have been some shameful episodes in that history.This is probably the same for all countries that had a colonial past.

Well having lived in Britain, I would say the opposite. Most don't have a clue of their history and this also applies to Irish people as well. Most people I met didn't have a clue about Ireland/NI and would ask the most stupid questions about the situation. Sometimes it would be jokingly said 'is that the bit we own?' said in a Could not give a **** manner, its over there.

I had mates from ethnic backgrounds who considered themselves British, but not English even though they were born and grew up in England, and supported England in football. It was a strange quirk I thought, but this seems quite common among ethnic minorities over there. Also there was a Protestant lad from NI at college, who pretty much everyone referred to as 'Irish John' which I always thought amusing.

Hamsterchops

RandomViewer wrote: »

Arlene's ancesters were Irish Catholic, how can she even claim Britishness

Gerry Adams ancestors were lowland Scots!

Sunny Disposition

Unionists do feel they are British, that's how it is, it's a funny kind of identity really, many of them accept that. They are well aware they are on the island of Ireland but are loyal to Britain for ancestral reasons, even though they don't feel much kinship with 'the mainland' especially with the English. I suppose all identity is a bit funny really.
I don't see any problem with British identity in the north now anyway, it was different years ago when it was placed above Irish identity, but that's more of a legacy issue now. We still have streets and emblems named after monarchs, their emblems and statues up in Belfast but none of ours, but it's not like it used to be.
One huge gripe among most nationalists is the absence of the Acht Gaeilge, the unionist opposition is a big part of what has made this so significant. We have a right to have our language recognised and supported, after centuries of it being downgraded. People who have lived in the South all along might see it as a small issue, some Unionists might also, but it really isn't.

Fr D Maugire

Sunny Disposition wrote: »

Unionists do feel they are British, that's how it is, it's a funny kind of identity really, many of them accept that. They are well aware they are on the island of Ireland but are loyal to Britain for ancestral reasons, even though they don't feel much kinship with 'the mainland' especially with the English. I suppose all identity is a bit funny really.
I don't see any problem with British identity in the north now anyway, it was different years ago when it was placed above Irish identity, but that's more of a legacy issue now. We still have streets and emblems named after monarchs, their emblems and statues up in Belfast but none of ours, but it's not like it used to be.
One huge gripe among most nationalists is the absence of the Acht Gaeilge, the unionist opposition is a big part of what has made this so significant. We have a right to have our language recognised and supported, after centuries of it being downgraded. People who have lived in the South all along might see it as a small issue, some Unionists might also, but it really isn't.

But historically, this idea of being British has less to do with being loyal to Britain than it had to do with not being associated with anything considered Catholic. The idea of Britishness over Irishness only really increased as Catholics in Ireland started to gain equal rights. That is why Unionism is built on nothing more than religious bigotry and intolerance and the OO has played a huge part in pushing that agenda.

RandomViewer

Orange Order will have to disband at some stage, its basically the Klan with flutes and a shallower gene pool

RobMc59

Fr D Maugire wrote: »

But historically, this idea of being British has less to do with being loyal to Britain than it had to do with not being associated with anything considered Catholic. The idea of Britishness over Irishness only really increased as Catholics in Ireland started to gain equal rights. That is why Unionism is built on nothing more than religious bigotry and intolerance and the OO has played a huge part in pushing that agenda.

The Unionism you refer to is only one branch of Unionism.A person's religious persuasion is becoming less important to all of us.
I have noticed there are many schools in Ireland now listed as 'multi denomination'.

BluePlanet

A UI is the only tenable solution to the conflict.

The unionists have no history nor an actual goal that would be needed to sustain a guerilla conflict.
Even during the Troubles the Loyalists had a guiding hand from British forces.

After a UI, what would their actual goal be?
They can't realistically believe they'll become an independent country, or that a majority of ppl in the statelet would even desire it.
The only thing they can do, is to throw tantrums like right now to try and thwart the inevitable march toward a UI.

They've wasted the last 25 years post GFA.
IRA standing down and arms decommissioning provided the best opportunity for the unionists to win over the hearts and minds of their nationalist neighbours. Surely the glory of being in the UK and it's "advantages" would diminish the desire for a UI.
But instead of seizing the historic opportunity they instead continued to try and push back on parity of esteem and put all their energy in to sectarian parades and stand offs, then Brexit.
Now they'll have to live with those failures.

downcow

Fr D Maugire wrote: »

Well here is the thing, some 200+ years ago the ancestors of many of the modern British in NI saw themselves first and foremost as Irish. In fact it was they who recognised the mismanagement and corruption of the COI Parliament in Dublin who were answerable to London. They recognised that they would never be more than a secondary class nation as long as they were ultimately answerable to London and that is something that modern Unionist's don't seem to have to cottoned on to.

It was the ancestors of the modern British in NI who first pushed for a Republic separate from Britain, the first to use Green as their colour, yet so much of that history has been simply ignored for the current 'we are British' only mythology. John Hume described the GFA as 'Sunningdale for Slow learners' which was aimed primarily at Unionists. The current situation of being screwed over by London is hardly surprising when they never learned the lessons from their ancestors of over 200 years ago. Slow learners indeed.

Why do you think our people changed their position on eg home rule?
Sunningdale was very different than gfa so I’m not sure who the slow learner was

McMurphy

downcow wrote: »

Why do you think our people changed their position on eg home rule?
Sunningdale was very different than gfa so I’m not sure who the slow learner was

Anytime you're ready down cow..cheers.

McMurphy wrote: »

What double talk

You say your British, I agree you're British, and have never once (since you asked me this morning) denied your Britishness, or the right of yourself or anyone else to identify themselves as British.

Here it is this morning where you asked me and I recognised your Britishness.


I'm still saying you've as much right to identify as British now as I was then.

Are you just trying to be contrary for the sake of it

downcow

Sunny Disposition wrote: »

Unionists do feel they are British, that's how it is, it's a funny kind of identity really, many of them accept that. They are well aware they are on the island of Ireland but are loyal to Britain for ancestral reasons, even though they don't feel much kinship with 'the mainland' especially with the English. I suppose all identity is a bit funny really.
I don't see any problem with British identity in the north now anyway, it was different years ago when it was placed above Irish identity, but that's more of a legacy issue now. We still have streets and emblems named after monarchs, their emblems and statues up in Belfast but none of ours, but it's not like it used to be.
One huge gripe among most nationalists is the absence of the Acht Gaeilge, the unionist opposition is a big part of what has made this so significant. We have a right to have our language recognised and supported, after centuries of it being downgraded. People who have lived in the South all along might see it as a small issue, some Unionists might also, but it really isn't.

I certainly do feel kinship with the mainland and English people
I recently spent a holiday in Torquay and felt much more at home than a recent trip to Dublin.
And I have found England to be the only set of supporters who 100% integrate with our supporters around internationals. Tbh I don’t remember playing the scots but games I have been at in Cardiff and Dublin have been tricky at times on the streets and pubs, no such issues when we have traveled to England.

JohnMcm1

A united Ireland..are you joking? The Loyalists would start a civil war over it. Personally i'd rather release the North into the sea, well clear of us.

downcow

McMurphy wrote: »

Anytime you're ready down cow..cheers.

???

Zebra3

downcow wrote: »

I certainly do feel kinship with the mainland and English people
I recently spent a holiday in Torquay and felt much more at home than a recent trip to Dublin.
And I have found England to be the only set of supporters who 100% integrate with our supporters around internationals. Tbh I don’t remember playing the scots but games I have been at in Cardiff and Dublin have been tricky at times on the streets and pubs, no such issues when we have traveled to England.

Cardiff is one violent kip. And not just football related, but in general. Very ropey place for a night out.

downcow

Zebra3 wrote: »

Cardiff is one violent kip. And not just football related, but in general. Very ropey place for a night out.

Interesting. I travel Europe with the ni team and Cardiff was by far the trickiest place to be a ni supporter. Seems it might be any supporter

BluePlanet

JohnMcm1 wrote: »

A united Ireland..are you joking? The Loyalists would start a civil war over it. Personally i'd rather release the North into the sea, well clear of us.

How are they going to bankroll a civil war?
Where are they going to buy weapons as the British will no longer be assisting them.
What's their actual support base besides a couple geographically small enclaves?
It's totally unsustainable.

McMurphy

downcow wrote: »

???

Remember this?

downcow wrote: »

I couldn’t care less what you think I am. I am challenging your double talk.
The reality is the opposite. You can refer to me as whatever you like, even irish. The fact is that I am legally british

What double talk

You say your British, I agree you're British, and have never once (since you originally asked me this morning) denied your Britishness, or the right of yourself or anyone else to identify themselves as British.

Here it is this morning where you asked me and I recognised your Britishness.

downcow wrote: »

Great observation. The problem is that posters like McM are using the term to goad my community by implying we are not brits

McMurphy wrote: »

Someone can identify as an Uzbek for all I care downcow, that's a lazy assumption on your part. You've as much right to identify as being British as Biden has to identify himself as Irish.

It still doesn't take away from the fact the British Government couldn't give a dam about you and your loyalist and unionist neighbours, and the uncomfortable fact they did throw you under the bus at the first given opportunity, exactly as was forewarned to unionists from everyone and their dogs would happen.

Take it up with them, not the Irish people who actually argued against Brexit and the predicament you now find yourselves in.

I'm still saying you've as much right to identify as British now as I was then.

Are you just trying to be contrary for the sake of it

McMurphy

JohnMcm1 wrote: »

A united Ireland..are you joking? The Loyalists would start a civil war over it. Personally i'd rather release the North into the sea, well clear of us.

Which would last approximately 24 - 36 hrs. Before they'd have to give it up.

Wise up and get real here.

Fr D Maugire

RobMc59 wrote: »

The Unionism you refer to is only one branch of Unionism.A person's religious persuasion is becoming less important to all of us.
I have noticed there are many schools in Ireland now listed as 'multi denomination'.

You might see it as a branch of Unionism, but it is the best description of people who support the DUP which is still the biggest party in NI. Maybe by another branch of Unionism, you mean the more moderate Unionists who might support the Alliance party and have emerged in the 20 years since the GFA. They are more likely to believe in the benefit of remining within the UK for pragmatic reasons(NHS etc), but are also the most likely to be open to the idea of a UI as well and are still far away from being the dominant force in Unionism.

Whether you like it or not, historically Unionisn has always been defined by Anti-Catholic doctrine. As I have pointed out more than once, when Home Rule was first mooted that would see Ireland remaining within the UK in the 1870/80s, the majority of Protestants were completely opposed to it even though it did not compromise their 'Britishness'. It was the idea of having to share power with Catholics they found appalling. The irony being that if Ireland had been granted home rule in the 19th century, it might have developed along a completely different line and may still have been part of the UK. If only Unionists had not been so shortsighted, bigoted and paranoid.