Belfast Disturbances

trashcan

Fr D Maugire wrote: »

But historically, this idea of being British has less to do with being loyal to Britain than it had to do with not being associated with anything considered Catholic. The idea of Britishness over Irishness only really increased as Catholics in Ireland started to gain equal rights. That is why Unionism is built on nothing more than religious bigotry and intolerance and the OO has played a huge part in pushing that agenda.

That has always been my take on it too. Much more to do with keeping themselves apart from the rest of the island than anything else.

Bobeagleburger

Hamsterchops wrote: »

An existential threat to the Irish people

Really?

Scare mongering. Don't know one person that feels under threat at all. Let them destroy their own place if they want. Nothing to do with us. British governments problem, not the Irish.

trashcan

bilston wrote: »

Well coming from NI...I see myself as Northern Irish first and foremost and British and Irish in equal measure. I'm quite comfortable in any of those skins. That's the beauty of being from Northern Ireland...that and vaccines:D

Now this I can get on board with much more than any “I’m not Irish, I’m British” declarations.

downcow

Fr D Maugire wrote: »

You might see it as a branch of Unionism, but it is the best description of people who support the DUP which is still the biggest party in NI. Maybe by another branch of Unionism, you mean the more moderate Unionists who might support the Alliance party and have emerged in the 20 years since the GFA. They are more likely to believe in the benefit of remining within the UK for pragmatic reasons(NHS etc), but are also the most likely to be open to the idea of a UI as well and are still far away from being the dominant force in Unionism.

Whether you like it or not, historically Unionisn has always been defined by Anti-Catholic doctrine. As I have pointed out more than once, when Home Rule was first mooted that would see Ireland remaining within the UK in the 1870/80s, the majority of Protestants were completely opposed to it even though it did not compromise their 'Britishness'. It was the idea of having to share power with Catholics they found appalling. The irony being that if Ireland had been granted home rule in the 19th century, it might have developed along a completely different line and may still have been part of the UK. If only Unionists had not been so shortsighted, bigoted and paranoid.

A nasty sectarian post that bears little resemblance to reality

downcow

BluePlanet wrote: »

Look after a UI vote numerous stake holders are all on the same side: British Government, Irish Government, all their security and intelligence services and police services and all Republican groups, not to mention USA.
All striving for a peaceful transition to a UI.

It would an major international embarrassment for the UK if we see a bunch of Loyalist goons waving British flags, running riot to try to thwart the democratic will of the people for a UI.

I would expect the British government and intelligence services to do their due diligence and keep their useful idiots in NI in check.

Who would look like goons if you refused devolution for this now homeless people. You paint it how you would like it but not a chance of a full blown terrorist campaign wanting re-entry into UK. That ship would have sailed.
You would have very serious community strife, street violence, loyalist/nationalist tit-for-tat murder. And all the poor downtrodden loyalist people would be (initially) asking for would be the tiniest devolution - you would look like awful people if you would give the ‘separatists’ nothing. Once you give something then we are on a slippery slope to full devolution, autonomy, independence.
I’ve never been involved with any political party or loyal order etc, but I’d be signing up for this movement the day after UI

steddyeddy

Tell me how wrote: »

'One of the main principles of Loyalism is Loyalty to the crown'

That's the only principle of loyalism.

I often wonder how that fits in with their throwing petrol bombs at busses in the UK policy?

I would suggest that serious investment needs to be made in these areas but the DUP are actually benefitting by keeping these people in hate mode.

Fr D Maugire

downcow wrote: »

A nasty sectarian post that bears little resemblance to reality

What is sectarian about it? Go ahead give us the Unionist version of how Northern Presbyterians went from being pro-Republic to anti-Home Rule in 70 years. What happened in that period to see such a swing in opinion because there there was very little happening for Catholics other than a few famines and the ending of the penal laws? Have at it.

I have read enough of your posts to know when it comes to being far from reality, there is nobody worse than yourself.

downcow

batman75 wrote: »

Dismayed to see water cannons used on nationalist youths rioting last night. It speaks of a continued state inequality in how Catholics and Protestants are treated. Fine if everybody gets the water treatment. It also feeds into unionist beliefs of superiority and that Catholics are the great unwashed. Disgusting.

They are the great washed today.

This is just silly. The water canon moved into Place following a very difficult night before. The psni were not expecting the loyalists to behave and the republicans take up the fight.
They thought they would be hiding the prods. So this is just more victimshood.
Who were the plastic billets fires at this week?

trashcan

downcow wrote: »

Who would look like goons if you refused devolution for this now homeless people. You paint it how you would like it but not a chance of a full blown terrorist campaign wanting re-entry into UK. That ship would have sailed.
You would have very serious community strife, street violence, loyalist/nationalist tit-for-tat murder. And all the poor downtrodden loyalist people would be (initially) asking for would be the tiniest devolution - you would look like awful people if you would give the ‘separatists’ nothing. Once you give something then we are on a slippery slope to full devolution, autonomy, independence.
I’ve never been involved with any political party or loyal order etc, but I’d be signing up for this movement the day after UI

But in such a scenario, where the majority of NI would have voted for unity, it’s highly unlikely that you would have a majority of the (former, at that stage) NI looking for devolution. So where would that leave you ? And your ultimate goal would be, what ? Full Independence for Northern Ireland ? In a scenario where Unionists are not in the majority ?

You sure you’ve thought this through ?

downcow

Seth Brundle wrote: »

...so much for the claims that the protests hadn't been organised :rolleyes:

The psni (who you all seem to think are wonderful) said today that none of the weeks loyalist rioting was organised but loyalist paramilitaries

But you guys won’t want to hear that as it doesn’t suit your agenda

downcow

lawred2 wrote: »

I said to my wife earlier in the week to wait and see how the PSNI reacts if similar carry on kicks off in a nationalist area..

Being British she didn't quite believe me.

She sees it now.

Did you tell her why you are referring to one area as ‘nationalist’ and the other as ‘loyalist’?

BluePlanet

trashcan wrote: »

But in such a scenario, where the majority of NI would have voted for unity, it’s highly unlikely that you would have a majority of the (former, at that stage) NI looking for devolution. So where would that leave you ? And your ultimate goal would be, what ? Full Independence for Northern Ireland ? In a scenario where Unionists are not in the majority ?

You sure you’ve thought this through ?

downcow has certainly not thought anything through.
An Independent NI would not last a day.

At best they would hope to establish part of Antrim and Down as some sort of separatist region but there's just no way that would be sustainable for even 1 week.
People need electricity, they need to get to work, they need food.
We live in a connected world and attempting to road block off a section of geography like that would be utterly futile. These are minds living in the past.

Who would support them?

Britain will gladly be shed this troublesome colony.

downcow

trashcan wrote: »

That has always been my take on it too. Much more to do with keeping themselves apart from the rest of the island than anything else.

You seem infatuated on using religious terms for the conflict while everyone else on here seems to understand it in loyalist/republican terms.
Mind you your suggests that’s your main interest/agenda

Edit. Apologies that was meant for Fr who you had responded to

batman75

downcow wrote: »

They are the great washed today.

This is just silly. The water canon moved into Place following a very difficult night before. The psni were not expecting the loyalists to behave and the republicans take up the fight.
They thought they would be hiding the prods. So this is just more victimshood.
Who were the plastic billets fires at this week?

There is a football club in Glasgow called Glasgow Rangers. It's a club that was reborn back in 2011 after being liquidated. Its followers see Catholics as taigs, unwashed, inferior to them and paedos. They hate Irish Catholics. When the new club won the league large crowds of supporters gathered in the Shankill to celebrate their first SPL title since the new club was founded in 2011. Loyalist soccer supporters generally pledge allegiance to Rangers hence the tie in to this topic.

You are entitled to think my post is silly which is fine. The fact is that there is a deep hatred of Catholics amongst a significant proportion of the loyalist population. The use of water against Catholics feeds into loyalist thinking of superiority. I know you don't accept this and that's fine. But it is the reality. To educate yourself have a read of the Rangers online forum followfollow. You might then have a better understanding of where i'm coming from.

To think that the new Rangers are giving out about bigotry towards one of their players is on some levels laughable. You will most not likely find a more bigoted set of supporters than those who support Rangers. Let Rangers in a profound and systematic way tackle the bigotry amongst their own supporters towards the Irish and Catholics and then we can take their indignation of racism towards one of their players seriously.

Junkyard Tom

Hamsterchops wrote: »

An existential threat to the Irish people

Really?

You find it funny? Murder on the streets by paratroopers? Assassinations of Solicitors? No warning bombs tearing through people in Dublin?

Funny?

Bobeagleburger

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

You find it funny? Murder on the streets by paratroopers? Assassinations of Solicitors? No warning bombs tearing through people in Dublin?

Funny?

You're the only one mentioning any of that tbf... Talk about jumping the gun.

Zero threat to the Irish people in the south from current crop of petrol bombers.

downcow

trashcan wrote: »

But in such a scenario, where the majority of NI would have voted for unity, it’s highly unlikely that you would have a majority of the (former, at that stage) NI looking for devolution. So where would that leave you ? And your ultimate goal would be, what ? Full Independence for Northern Ireland ? In a scenario where Unionists are not in the majority ?

You sure you’ve thought this through ?

Who said Northern Ireland?
I understood you were referring to some forced situation by Roi Eu UK USA. If you do that then you will have created a cornered rat.

If you are talking about a majority in ni voting to give up the nhs etc, we’ll I am very relaxed about that. That is fantasy stuff

downcow

BluePlanet wrote: »

downcow has certainly not thought anything through.
An Independent NI would not last a day.

At best they would hope to establish part of Antrim and Down as some sort of separatist region but there's just no way that would be sustainable for even 1 week.
People need electricity, they need to get to work, they need food.
We live in a connected world and attempting to road block off a section of geography like that would be utterly futile. These are minds living in the past.

Who would support them?

Britain will gladly be shed this troublesome colony.

So are you seriously suggesting you would do the seige of derry over again - it didn’t work too well for you last time.
You are going to deprive us of electricity and food. Haha. Bring it on. I think there would be plenty of supplies flown in from the UN etc. But hey. You have taken us into real fantasy land - from a thread about trouble in Belfast

FrancieBrady

Have to say, 'we are gonna stall on trying to burn police officers to death in their jeeps as a mark of respect for the queen' to be one of the most bizarre turn of events yet.
Old queenie signed the Protocol they are angry about into law.

Hamsterchops

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

You find it funny? Murder on the streets by paratroopers? Assassinations of Solicitors? No warning bombs tearing through people in Dublin?

Funny?

WTF are you on about?

Nobody, but nobody, not even Boris is planning to send in the paratroopers declare war on the Irish people, not sure what you're on about there really.

Existential threat indeed.

20silkcut

Tell me how wrote: »

'One of the main principles of Loyalism is Loyalty to the crown'

That's the only principle of loyalism.

They are loyal to keeping the taigs in their place.
That is their only loyalty, even if it is detrimental to their own interests.
They could have sorted brexit in a heartbeat by backing Theresa mays customs Union for the entire U.K and there would never be a need for a Northern Ireland protocol. Brexit would have been put to bed long ago.
But no that would have satisfied nationalism and Dublin. Can’t be having that.

steddyeddy

downcow wrote: »

Who said Northern Ireland?
I understood you were referring to some forced situation by Roi Eu UK USA. If you do that then you will have created a cornered rat.

If you are talking about a majority in ni voting to give up the nhs etc, we’ll I am very relaxed about that. That is fantasy stuff

Can I ask you a question DC? Are you on English forums explaining to people about the effects of Brexit on Northern Ireland, educating English people that loyalists are British and not Irish and convincing them to invest more in Northern Ireland?

It strikes me that you're espousing all of your anger and opinions towards a country (Ireland) which A) has nothing to do with what's happening now in Northern Ireland and is much better educated about unionism in Northern Ireland than the average English person is. We have nothing to do with what's happening now so why the angst directed at us?

Junkyard Tom

6 wrote: »

You're the only one mentioning any of that tbf... Talk about jumping the gun.

Zero threat to the Irish people in the south from current crop of petrol bombers.

I'm not talking about a bunch of dopes who can barely write led by minted Unionists who incite them. The British state has been a menace to the Irish people for generations and continues to be. Brexit has exposed to all but the most dim amongst us that the menace of the British state remains.

downcow

batman75 wrote: »

There is a football club in Glasgow called Glasgow Rangers. It's a club that was reborn back in 2011 after being liquidated. Its followers see Catholics as taigs, unwashed, inferior to them and paedos. They hate Irish Catholics. When the new club won the league large crowds of supporters gathered in the Shankill to celebrate their first SPL title since the new club was founded in 2011. Loyalist soccer supporters generally pledge allegiance to Rangers hence the tie in to this topic.

You are entitled to think my post is silly which is fine. The fact is that there is a deep hatred of Catholics amongst a significant proportion of the loyalist population. The use of water against Catholics feeds into loyalist thinking of superiority. I know you don't accept this and that's fine. But it is the reality. To educate yourself have a read of the Rangers online forum followfollow. You might then have a better understanding of where i'm coming from.

To think that the new Rangers are giving out about bigotry towards one of their players is on some levels laughable. You will most not likely find a more bigoted set of supporters than those who support Rangers. Let Rangers in a profound and systematic way tackle the bigotry amongst their own supporters towards the Irish and Catholics and then we can take their indignation of racism towards one of their players seriously.

I have no idea why you are raising this.
I could repeat the post and exchange ‘rangers’ for ‘Celtic’ and refer to the support they have in Belfast.
You appear so so blinkered if you think one community is more sectarian that the other

BluePlanet

downcow wrote: »

Who said Northern Ireland?
I understood you were referring to some forced situation by Roi Eu UK USA. If you do that then you will have created a cornered rat.

If you are talking about a majority in ni voting to give up the nhs etc, we’ll I am very relaxed about that. That is fantasy stuff

After a successful UI vote, Britain and Ireland are now on the same side and same page to see a peaceful transition.
Britain is simply not going to support a breakaway region.
In fact it will be just the opposite and they'll be curtailing and stopping any moves toward a secessionist region.

Esel

downcow wrote: »

The psni (who you all seem to think are wonderful) said today that none of the weeks loyalist rioting was organised but loyalist paramilitaries

But you guys won’t want to hear that as it doesn’t suit your agenda

Yeah, the young Loyalist rioters all saved their pocket money for weeks to buy the petrol and fireworks. No-one else is financing them - of course not.

steddyeddy

Hamsterchops wrote: »

WTF are you on about?

Nobody, but nobody, not even Boris is planning to send in the paratroopers declare war on the Irish people, not sure what you're on about there really.

Existential threat indeed.

H in fairness Boris is a danger to his own people. He lied about the effects of Brexit to further his own career. He's placed the future of the British economy in danger so he could get support for his campaign. He doesn't care enough about Northern Ireland to tell them the truth that there was always going to be a sea border with his strategy.

BluePlanet

downcow wrote: »

So are you seriously suggesting you would do the seige of derry over again - it didn’t work too well for you last time.
You are going to deprive us of electricity and food. Haha. Bring it on. I think there would be plenty of supplies flown in from the UN etc. But hey. You have taken us into real fantasy land - from a thread about trouble in Belfast

why would the UN (United Nations) of which NI is not a member, be flying in food to support a band of secessionists that can't handle democracy?

downcow

20silkcut wrote: »

They are loyal to keeping the taigs in their place.
That is their only loyalty, even if it is detrimental to their own interests.
They could have sorted brexit in a heartbeat by backing Theresa mays customs Union for the entire U.K and there would never be a need for a Northern Ireland protocol. Brexit would have been put to bed long ago.
But no that would have satisfied nationalism and Dublin. Can’t be having that.

You really are incredibly arrogant to think that everything unionists do is guided by reaction to republicans

trashcan

downcow wrote: »

Who said Northern Ireland?
I understood you were referring to some forced situation by Roi Eu UK USA. If you do that then you will have created a cornered rat.

If you are talking about a majority in ni voting to give up the nhs etc, we’ll I am very relaxed about that. That is fantasy stuff

Ok, if not Northern Ireland, then what entity were you talking about that would be seeking devolution\independence ?

I wasn’t referring to anything btw, I was responding to your hypothesis in relation to a future United Ireland. And the only way that can come about, as we all know, is if there is a majority vote for it in NI, as well as in the South. There is no question of it being “forced” on anyone. You don’t think that will happen, fair enough, maybe you’re right, I honestly couldn’t call it, but it was your hypothesis, so.........