Belfast Disturbances

lurleen lumpkin

downcow wrote: »

I can’t reflect the nationalist feelings but I can reflect the rural unionist position and feelings are strong and widespread

Feelings of what exactly?

funkey_monkey

downcow wrote: »

Here is what kicked it off. Republicans caught on video attacking tigers bay when all was calm. Tigers bay is now a bit mad https://mobile.twitter.com/JonnySwift97

Did that necessitate violence in Coleraine?

plibige

downcow wrote: »

This is nonsense.
The dog is moving within the UK. It is not entering the Eu.
The vaccines are as they are because we are not in the Eu and our government did not get smothered in Eu red tape and got them ordered early. And are you proposing the Eu adopt a policy of not exporting?

How is the fact that Northern Ireland being part of the EU single market and the island of Britain is not, nonsense?

No you put two and two together and got 5. I'm pointing out that the EU's vaccine is slow due to its willingness to work with other countries, and that the UK slagging off the EU over its slow start to vaccination is misguided due to the bulk of its vaccines coming from the eu. By the end of the summer the UK's "triumph" of vaccinating people a few months before the EU won't look like much of a victory

Miggeldy

dd973 wrote: »

It's odd how thousands of U.K citizens live happily in the ROI yet it's obvious these Loyalists/Unionists will never be happy here even after being here for generations. They seem to hate Ireland and Irish people and culture but are strident about living here, if I lived in France but hated France and the French I'd just leave.

Excellent, excellent point!

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

This is niave. During almost any point in the last 50 years you could have taken endless pictures just the same.

Tiny areas, is the point. Children manipulated by elders, is the point. No buy in from the wider Unionist community - is the point. Politicians and others talking up unrest and anger is not believable. LCC now distancing themselves from it all.

The pictures reflect the reality.

FrancieBrady

Miggeldy wrote: »

Excellent, excellent point!

It is. Es[ecially the point about people from all over the UK living happily in Ireland.

Watched the excellent 'Finding Jack Charlton' last night and they relived that awful world cup qualifier in Windsor Park, Jack's absolute bewilderment at the hate coming from his so called 'fellow UKers' is palpable.
The ordinary UKer cannot fathom the hate.

Hamsterchops

Pablo Escobar wrote: »

Tbf the majority here can do math. What's your solution?

Well it's definitely not math.

overshoot

downcow wrote: »

Oh I agree boris cut us off - but he gave in to Eu/Roi nonsense about threat of violence and damage to gfa. Watch the violence and damage to gfa going forward.

Watch the violence and damage going forward? There would be violence with either border anyone with cop on could have expected that and we have it, thus this thread (or at least brexit was one of the reasons). If the aim was to avoid that the NI/ROI border would have been discussed properly before any vote. The unionist parties may have thought for themselves and discussed it rather than buy into the Tory it's only little old Ireland, we will handle the border with some magical technology-hows that tech working now?

Boris didn't give into any threats of violence anyway, foreign secretary Raab admitted he hadn't even read the whopping 34pages of it, they simply couldn't have cared less. Boris diverged to where he wanted Britain and left out the NI because he wanted trade deals with the EU and USA (Pelosi had made it clear that the house of representatives would stand over the GFA long before Biden was even a preferred candidate). If the union was so important why did he cut the north of and not go for if necessary, the hard no deal brexit?

downcow

lurleen lumpkin wrote: »

Feelings of what exactly?

A raft of stuff but primarily the Irish Sea border.

downcow

plibige wrote: »

How is the fact that Northern Ireland being part of the EU single market and the island of Britain is not, nonsense?

No you put two and two together and got 5. I'm pointing out that the EU's vaccine is slow due to its willingness to work with other countries, and that the UK slagging off the EU over its slow start to vaccination is misguided due to the bulk of its vaccines coming from the eu. By the end of the summer the UK's "triumph" of vaccinating people a few months before the EU won't look like much of a victory

Very few people in UK are triumphalist over this. They are just relieved at how it’s rolling out.
I hear anger on this forum from southerners upset at the incompetence of Eu around the vaccine rollout

downcow

overshoot wrote: »

Watch the violence and damage going forward? There would be violence with either border anyone with cop on could have expected that and we have it, thus this thread (or at least brexit was one of the reasons). If the aim was to avoid that the NI/ROI border would have been discussed properly before any vote. The unionist parties may have thought for themselves and discussed it rather than buy into the Tory it's only little old Ireland, we will handle the border with some magical technology-hows that tech working now?

Boris didn't give into any threats of violence anyway, foreign secretary Raab admitted he hadn't even read the whopping 34pages of it, they simply couldn't have cared less. Boris diverged to where he wanted Britain and left out the NI because he wanted trade deals with the EU and USA (Pelosi had made it clear that the house of representatives would stand over the GFA long before Biden was even a preferred candidate). If the union was so important why did he cut the north of and not go for if necessary, the hard no deal brexit?

So you think supporting a border through the middle of the UK supports the gfa?

steddyeddy

downcow wrote: »

I think that’s a fair question, if a little naive.

It could be described as naive perhaps, however, I wanted to give you more credit than being a loyalist caricature.

I didn’t vote as I was at the euros. If I had voted I probably would have voted to stay. My country voted for brexit. I am a democrat. They did not vote to stay in everything bar the decision making.
So I accepted brexit and was prepared to leave.

Great. Your country voted to leave and you were prepared to take the consequences. All good with me.

Then the Eu wanted to punish UK and make sure no one else leaves. Roi have them the ace card by playing up republican terrorism should ni go out fully with UK. They tried everything to screw us.

Ah right. Now this is where we get our tin foil hats on. You'll forgive when I say I don't think the EU adding tariffs to goods entering its trading zone as "punishment". Based on that Britain is punishing countries it doesn't have a deal with by adding tariffs to their goods entering Britain. It's time to start acting like adults and accept the consequences of the vote your country has made.

In regards to the terrorism threat, well no the EU didn't just say there would be terrorism if the Good Friday agreement was broken, they were simple protecting a peace treaty that has returned stability to the region after 30 decades of fighting.

So that’s why my anger is directed towards Roi and I can assure most unionists anger is that direction. Your pm showed us that threat of violence still works. The street disturbances are confirming that as other night it was lead item on bbc world news. Not a good lesson

So let me get this straight D. You're telling us that Leo varadkar threatened violence against Boris and Boris was scared so he was forced to sign the deal implementing a sea border.

Let's look at the actual historic facts here. Here's Nigel Dodds from the DUP at their party conference:

"Stick to your word (Boris Johnson) – we will not accept a customs border in the Irish Sea."

Let's move forward to the actual proposal. As a unionist I'm sure you know Reg Empey, former leader of the Ulster unionist party. Here's what he had to say on the Irish sea border:

Agreement being reached is confirmation that there will be a regulatory border in the Irish Sea. This proposal from Boris Johnson last year was endorsed by Arlene Foster and her DUP colleagues on October 2 2019."

So listen D. You can "assure" me all you want that unionists blame the Irish for something that the British have voted for but it's nonsensical for two reasons. No1. only the hardcore, tin foil wearing loyalists and people who don't understand the events of the last few years believe it and No.2 there's no factual evidence to back that up.

I respect the unionist tradition but let's not kid ourselves in thinking that the loyalist, blame Ireland for the consequences of their actions tradition deserves any respect. Invest in education for loyalist communities and stop investing in hate. It's only holding you back.

downcow

This is slowly turning into another brexit thread.

Good to see much less violence last night, but the reasons for the violence will have to be examined at some point, whether now or after 10 years of it.

downcow

downcow wrote: »

This is slowly turning into another brexit thread.

Good to see much less violence last night, but the reasons for the violence will have to be examined at some point, whether now or after 10 years of it.

Agreed, you should examine it, come back when you see the route you've taken that's gotten you where you are!

downcow

steddyeddy wrote: »

It could be described as naive perhaps, however, I wanted to give you more credit than being a loyalist caricature.



Great. Your country voted to leave and you were prepared to take the consequences. All good with me.



Ah right. Now this is where we get our tin foil hats on. You'll forgive when I say I don't think the EU adding tariffs to goods entering its trading zone as "punishment". Based on that Britain is punishing countries it doesn't have a deal with by adding tariffs to their goods entering Britain. It's time to start acting like adults and accept the consequences of the vote your country has made.

In regards to the terrorism threat, well no the EU didn't just say there would be terrorism if the Good Friday agreement was broken, they were simple protecting a peace treaty that has returned stability to the region after 30 decades of fighting.




So let me get this straight D. You're telling us that Leo varadkar threatened violence against Boris and Boris was scared so he was forced to sign the deal implementing a sea border.

Let's look at the actual historic facts here. Here's Nigel Dodds from the DUP at their party conference:



Let's move forward to the actual proposal. As a unionist I'm sure you know Reg Empey, former leader of the Ulster unionist party. Here's what he had to say on the Irish sea border:



So listen D. You can "assure" me all you want that unionists blame the Irish for something that the British have voted for but it's nonsensical for two reasons. No1. only the hardcore, tin foil wearing loyalists and people who don't understand the events of the last few years believe it and No.2 there's no factual evidence to back that up.

I respect the unionist tradition but let's not kid ourselves in thinking that the loyalist, blame Ireland for the consequences of their actions tradition deserves any respect. Invest in education for loyalist communities and stop investing in hate. It's only holding you back.

I agree with much of what you say. I agree completely with the ref empy quote.

I disagree strongly with some of it.
The lie was sold that a border in the Irish Sea would protect gfa and peace. This is the root of the problem and the anger. The dup were completely incompetent allowing this lie to take legs.

Pablo Escobar

Hamsterchops wrote: »

Well it's definitely not math.

I take it you don’t have one? Either do I. And here we are.

briany

I think the UK should join the EU. Then, no border checks would be needed anywhere on these islands.

steddyeddy

downcow wrote: »

This is slowly turning into another brexit thread.

Good to see much less violence last night, but the reasons for the violence will have to be examined at some point, whether now or after 10 years of it.

Indeed although I suspect part of it is due to the DUP implementing a sea border between Northern Ireland and Britain. What were they thinking??

Agreement being reached is confirmation that there will be a regulatory border in the Irish Sea. This proposal from Boris Johnson last year was endorsed by Arlene Foster and her DUP colleagues on October 2 2019.

Agreement being reached is confirmation that there will be a regulatory border in the Irish Sea. This proposal from Boris Johnson last year was endorsed by Arlene Foster and her DUP colleagues on October 2 2019.

Can she now explain why the DUP didn`t block this proposal in October 2019 when they held the balance of power in the House of Commons?

Furthermore, in an interview with the BBC on Tuesday October 2 2018 Arlene Foster said:

“There cannot be a border down the Irish Sea, a differential between Northern Ireland and the rest of the UK - The red line is blood red — All along we have said: ‘No new regulatory alignment.”

Arlene Foster also told ITV on 9 October 2018:

“We’ve always said there’s only one red line in these matters and that’s when we’re treated differently from the rest of the UK in terms of customs in terms of regulatory alignment and that’s not only to protect the constitutional integrity of the UK but also the economy of NI.”


Can she now explain why she agreed to a regulatory border when she had pledged never to do so?

Lord Empey, Ulster Unionist peer, Westminster

steddyeddy

downcow wrote: »

I agree with much of what you say. I agree completely with the ref empy quote.

I disagree strongly with some of it.
The lie was sold that a border in the Irish Sea would protect gfa and peace. This is the root of the problem and the anger. The dup were completely incompetent allowing this lie to take legs.

They didn't allow anything to take legs. They helped implement it. Arlene should be made an honorary member of the IRA. She's achieved something they have failed to do.

Kermit.de.frog

downcow wrote: »

Oh I agree boris cut us off - but he gave in to Eu/Roi nonsense about threat of violence and damage to gfa. Watch the violence and damage to gfa going forward.

Ask yourself this question.

After 40 plus years of destruction and mayhem would you not think to yourself "this really isn't worth it"? That it's just lives wasted, opportunities lost. A whole generation consigned to the dustbin.

For what? Trade friction on seed potatoes?

Really, really!? Is that the hill you and your region want to die on?

Because the rest of us will just move on.

It's the 6 counties that will be stuck with the warped medievil battles, society in tatters and no opportunity for anyone.

It's a wasted, pointless existence.

downcow

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Agreed, you should examine it, come back when you see the route you've taken that's gotten you where you are!

Oh I see it.
The dup and the Roi are both being heavily blamed by grassroots unionists.
The Roi for progating the lie and the dup for not countering it.

Unfortunately we have a very difficult summer in front of us that may well let the genie out of the bottle.

Do you think things escalating in ni will bring a UI closer or push it further away? A serious question

downcow

briany wrote: »

I think the UK should join the EU. Then, no border checks would be needed anywhere on these islands.

Or Roi should leave the Eu

steddyeddy

downcow wrote: »

Oh I see it.
The dup and the Roi are both being heavily blamed by grassroots unionists.
The Roi for progating the lie and the dup for not countering it.

Unfortunately we have a very difficult summer in front of us that may well let the genie out of the bottle.

Do you think things escalating in ni will bring a UI closer or push it further away? A serious question

I think Brexit will undoubtedly move things forward significantly. Northern Ireland will be put under even more economic pressure because of Brexit, a phenomenon that most people in Northern Ireland didn't want.

6541

downcow wrote: »

Oh I see it.
The dup and the Roi are both being heavily blamed by grassroots unionists.
The Roi for progating the lie and the dup for not countering it.

Unfortunately we have a very difficult summer in front of us that may well let the genie out of the bottle.

Do you think things escalating in ni will bring a UI closer or push it further away? A serious question

Golden opportunity for republicans to take on Unionists.

downcow

downcow wrote: »

Oh I see it.
The dup and the Roi are both being heavily blamed by grassroots unionists.
The Roi for progating the lie and the dup for not countering it.

Unfortunately we have a very difficult summer in front of us that may well let the genie out of the bottle.

Do you think things escalating in ni will bring a UI closer or push it further away? A serious question

The Tories also need lots of blame but don't seem to be getting any. When the call comes for a vote on a United Ireland, trust me, it'll be the Tories!

lawred2

downcow wrote: »

Oh I see it.
The dup and the Roi are both being heavily blamed by grassroots unionists.
The Roi for progating the lie and the dup for not countering it.

Unfortunately we have a very difficult summer in front of us that may well let the genie out of the bottle.

Do you think things escalating in ni will bring a UI closer or push it further away? A serious question

What lie?

downcow

downcow wrote: »

Or Roi should leave the Eu

Why would we? We aren't being sold a myth. It's not even been considered, we support the EU. We might question some of it's decisions but it's a democracy we can contribute to changing it

JupiterKid

downcow wrote: »

Or Roi should leave the Eu

That is simply never going to happen. EU membership has completely transformed Ireland’s economy and society for the better and the Irish electorate and body politic are more than fully aware of this.

steddyeddy

downcow wrote: »

Or Roi should leave the Eu

No offence D but the economy and state of Northern Ireland's not exactly a good advertisement for that.

downcow

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Ask yourself this question.

After 40 plus years of destruction and mayhem would you not think to yourself "this really isn't worth it"? That it's just lives wasted, opportunities lost. A whole generation consigned to the dustbin.

For what? Trade friction on seed potatoes?

Really, really!? Is that the hill you and your region want to die on?

Because the rest of us will just move on.

It's the 6 counties that will be stuck with the warped medievil battles, society in tatters and no opportunity for anyone.

It's a wasted, pointless existence.

Those bad unionists!
We could say exactly the same about a few checks on seed potatoes at Dundalk