Belfast Disturbances

Angler1

UK and EU need to grow up. No piece of land is going to drift away. We will be neighbours for as long as humans exist. Bad neighbours result in a lose lose situation. Whenever a poll takes place Ireland will reunite. I hope we have the sense to accommodate Unionist sensitivities when that happens. Take a century long view

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

I think
The Eu Roi and UK should be big girls and cooperate a little.
Firstly there are endless checks etc ongoing which are not required, eg my daughters dog requiring a rabies jab to move from rabies-free gb into rabies-free ni. Problem is that Eu, which has rabies, wants it jabbed in case they get more rabies lol. One of hundreds of crazy Eu beurocratic nonsense.
So reduce checks.
Have electronic system to log movements (UK has said they will take responsibility for anything that breaches this and Eu can sue)
Have some sensible checks on Irish Sea
Have some camera / digital checks on Irish border
Maybe some stuff at Cherbourg if it’s more appropriate
Etc etc.
It’s just about being grown up and getting a win win

Nobody trusts the UK. That is why there has to be scrutiny.
The rest of the issues have mechanisms within the Protocol that the UK hadn't used to solve.

lawred2

Oh Yeah! wrote: »

Nobody cares. This is major level cope. The "face" phenomenon is really nothing more than the musings of sexually frustrated bisexual millenial males. Its 18-22 year olds who have no outlet for their homoeroticism. They're also statistically proven to be the most sexually hopeless generation of men ever. They should not be listened to.

The face must simply be symmetrical. The "facial aesthetic" ideals miscers seem to like are actually at odds with science which says that women are attracted to feminine male faces. Considering black men actually have more feminine faces (bigger lips, less prominent jaws, rounder heads) it would seem to suggest that your "facially attractive" nonsense doesnt really hold true. Besides, if Ryan fukking Gosling can be considered aesthetic then I dont really know what to believe anymore.

Its about sex appeal. It doesnt start and stop with the face. But, just like some 19% bodyfat manlet gymcel with bad hygiene and poor communication skills would be seen as sexually unappealing, so too would some beta twink with a pretty face and no masculinity.

Urm... Yeah... Exactly

igCorcaigh

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

Identity is complex and fluid which is good for Unionists as they are welcome to be part of the Irish nation. I believe it's only 30%, or thereabouts, who describe themselves as 'British' now in the north with the remainder as Irish/North-Irish.

It bodes well for a future as a united country and people.

Identity is complex and fluid, as you say.

It's one thing to fight a liberation struggle against an oppressor enemy who is stealing another nations resources, and subjugating its citizens, like we have seen with all wars down the ages. But to fight war, to commit murder, for the sake of something like a flag or national identity just in itself doesn't sit well with me at all, and I would have no part in it.

downcow

nullzero wrote: »

There's the thing.

You're not Irish, and Unionists will never identify as Irish, mainly because they view themselves as better than the Irish.

In all honesty, you cannot negotiate with bigotry that is as ingrained as that found with Unionists.

Unionists don't want anything to do with us, any United Ireland would only end in one way; a bloody unending civil war.

Were it not for the civil rights movement in the 1960s there would still the an apartheid system in place in Northern Ireland. Unionists hate us, they hate all nationalists in the North and they hate the Republic of Ireland and all it represents, mainly that we've scraped our way to being a success story while Northern Ireland is by all metrics a failed state. Why should we entertain Unionists and all the baggage that comes with them? Let Britain deal with them. My sincere condolences to all rational people in the North because their lives are ruled by these imbeciles.

Oh my goodness, you say bigotry! You needed that off your chest.

My father was from Donegal. He loved his roots and instilled a love for Donegal in all his family. I’ve enjoyed holidays in Donegal, Shankill (Dublin). I’ve walked in Kerry, Connemara, Wicklow and Donegal. Rosnowlagh is beautiful.
Unionists gripe with Ireland (well mine anyway) was around a few things.
You harboured terrorists who were killing my people (then that was sorted when you started extraditing - thank you)
You laid a very aggressive claim over my country (then that was sorted and you removed it - thank you)
You started grooming our footballers and tried to get them to switch to you (that’s ok now as none seem to want to go - thanks for not being an attractive option)
You played fast and lose with our identity, peace and future by using the threat of violence and supporting the Eu intransigence to get the temporary border in Irish see - I trust I will thank you one day for rising up on that

So I don’t hate you or your country and I certainly don’t hate Catholics. We have the most advanced equality legislation re religion in the world.
I hate what your country has done to us - eg the few examples above but I don’t hate you or your country. I hate the actions not the people.
We were building an inclusive society until you and boris and the Eu screwed us over. But we faced a murderous sectarian campaign for 30 years by what many claim was most effective terrorist organisation in the western world. It done nothing but unite and strengthen us. Sometimes the more that are against you the stronger you get. So I have no (long term) fear for the people of ni Catholic, Protestant, nationalist, unionist. We will come through this

Frank Bullitt

downcow wrote: »

I think
The Eu Roi and UK should be big girls and cooperate a little.
Firstly there are endless checks etc ongoing which are not required, eg my daughters dog requiring a rabies jab to move from rabies-free gb into rabies-free ni. Problem is that Eu, which has rabies, wants it jabbed in case they get more rabies lol. One of hundreds of crazy Eu beurocratic nonsense.
So reduce checks.
Have electronic system to log movements (UK has said they will take responsibility for anything that breaches this and Eu can sue)
Have some sensible checks on Irish Sea
Have some camera / digital checks on Irish border
Maybe some stuff at Cherbourg if it’s more appropriate
Etc etc.
It’s just about being grown up and getting a win win

The same old garbage we have heard for the past 4 years.

Putting up cameras on the NI boarder would be a complete disaster, it wouldn't be an open boarder, and that interferes with the GFA.

What are "sensible" checks? What other examples are there of "EU beurocratic nonsense"? Why should the EU reduce checks for the UK, and not for every other third country then?

Plenty of white noise there.

Akrasia

downcow wrote: »

I think
The Eu Roi and UK should be big girls and cooperate a little.
Firstly there are endless checks etc ongoing which are not required, eg my daughters dog requiring a rabies jab to move from rabies-free gb into rabies-free ni. Problem is that Eu, which has rabies, wants it jabbed in case they get more rabies lol. One of hundreds of crazy Eu beurocratic nonsense.
So reduce checks.
Have electronic system to log movements (UK has said they will take responsibility for anything that breaches this and Eu can sue)
Have some sensible checks on Irish Sea
Have some camera / digital checks on Irish border
Maybe some stuff at Cherbourg if it’s more appropriate
Etc etc.
It’s just about being grown up and getting a win win

Rabies is not 'in europe'
There have been some cases of people with rabies arriving in Europe having acquired the infection outside of the EU, but no cases of animals infected with rabies causing an infection inside of the EU in at least 20 years

The reason why, is that there are very strong import controls on live animals into the EU, including domestic pets

The UK did not want to maintain regulatory alignment with the EU so they are now a third country who need to be subjected to exactly the same checks as every other non EU country (where no other treaties apply)

We already know that border infrastructure will be removed as soon as it is put up because 'camera/digital checks' at the Ireland NI border is not acceptable, nor are any checks at the border between Ireland and the EU as we are still in the EU and not part of a union that have just left the EU

The UK government choose a hard brexit, and NI have nobody else to blame for any hardship caused by this than Johnson and the Tories

FrancieBrady

igCorcaigh wrote: »

Identity is complex and fluid, as you say.

This is very true.
There is nothing to stop one changing identity. Same as there is nothing stopping a Unionist changing their political orientation or a nationalist.

downcow

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

Identity is complex and fluid which is good for Unionists as they are welcome to be part of the Irish nation. I believe it's only 30%, or thereabouts, who describe themselves as 'British' now in the north with the remainder as Irish/North-Irish.

It bodes well for a future as a united country and people.

I have just completed census recently and I ticked the box Northern Irish, but I am every bit as british as I ever was. So when you do your sums don’t assume Northern Irish are less british than those who tick british

downcow

Frank Bullitt wrote: »

The same old garbage we have heard for the past 4 years.

Putting up cameras on the NI boarder would be a complete disaster, it wouldn't be an open boarder, and that interferes with the GFA.

What are "sensible" checks? What other examples are there of "EU beurocratic nonsense"? Why should the EU reduce checks for the UK, and not for every other third country then?

Plenty of white noise there.

Well here we go.
Anyone who doubts who is being unreasonable just read that post again.
This guy won’t even tolerate a few cameras on the road (they are already there) but he wants me to jump through a thousand hoops to move within my own nation.

I am glad you posted that. It will let those who think it’s the unionist who are intransigent to see the truth

igCorcaigh

Regardless of the interesting debate we have about the constitutional affairs, let's say, and there has been great contributions here on this thread.

Can I make a point about how education in both NI and ROI, has been abysmal in how it segregates by religion.
What a blocker to a modern peaceful society.

Probably worse in ROI, we are such an outlier.

Social housing is also a huge issue; segregated in NI, and dysfunctional in ROI.

downcow

Akrasia wrote: »

Rabies is not 'in europe'
There have been some cases of people with rabies arriving in Europe having acquired the infection outside of the EU, but no cases of animals infected with rabies causing an infection inside of the EU in at least 20 years

The reason why, is that there are very strong import controls on live animals into the EU, including domestic pets

The UK did not want to maintain regulatory alignment with the EU so they are now a third country who need to be subjected to exactly the same checks as every other non EU country (where no other treaties apply)

We already know that border infrastructure will be removed as soon as it is put up because 'camera/digital checks' at the Ireland NI border is not acceptable, nor are any checks at the border between Ireland and the EU as we are still in the EU and not part of a union that have just left the EU

The UK government choose a hard brexit, and NI have nobody else to blame for any hardship caused by this than Johnson and the Tories

Haha. There is no rabies in the Eu but there is rabies in the Eu. What are you on tonight.

There is no rabies in the UK of ni & gb. There is rabies in the Eu.


Who will remove the cameras? And how?

downcow

igCorcaigh wrote: »

Regardless of the interesting debate we have about the constitutional affairs, let's say, and there has been great contributions here on this thread.

Can I make a point about how education in both NI and ROI, has been abysmal in how it segregates by religion.
What a blocker to a modern peaceful society.

Probably worse in ROI, we are such an outlier.

Social housing is also a huge issue; segregated in NI, and dysfunctional in ROI.

I agree totally

Junkyard Tom

downcow wrote: »

I have just completed census recently and I ticked the box Northern Irish, but I am every bit as british as I ever was. So when you do your sums don’t assume Northern Irish are less british than those who tick british

And equally a person who ticks that box may consider themselves every bit as Irish as any other Irish person.

jimmycrackcorm

Del.Monte wrote: »

The more things change, the more they stay the same - from my 1972 press cuttings archive.

I find it slightly amusing that Wrights manufacture buses in Ballymena. It's almost as if they know there's going to be a steady local market.

Frank Bullitt

downcow wrote: »

Well here we go.
Anyone who doubts who is being unreasonable just read that post again.
This guy won’t even tolerate a few cameras on the road (they are already there) but he wants me to jump through a thousand hoops to move within my own nation.

I am glad you posted that. It will let those who think it’s the unionist who are intransigent to see the truth

Give me a break, the fake outrage in this post gave me a smile. There are no cameras on that road for the purpose of a boarder, maybe speed cameras, but that is your lot.

We are seeing a group already kick up a big fuss with the use of violence over a boarder, so just imagine that but the roles reversed. You might well like that though so you wouldn't have to do this revisionist history and blame republicans.

Again though, what "thousand hoops" would you have to jump through. Please, tell us.

jimmycrackcorm

Angler1 wrote: »

UK and EU need to grow up. No piece of land is going to drift away. We will be neighbours for as long as humans exist. Bad neighbours result in a lose lose situation. Whenever a poll takes place Ireland will reunite. I hope we have the sense to accommodate Unionist sensitivities when that happens. Take a century long view

Donegal has the only annual Orange Order 12th of July parade in the ROI. You'd never find anyone objecting to it or the marching route.

In a UI scenario, the twelfth would also become a national holiday for the entire Island and we'd all be spending the day in the pub, just like Paddys.

downcow

Frank Bullitt wrote: »

Give me a break, the fake outrage in this post gave me a smile. There are no cameras on that road for the purpose of a boarder, maybe speed cameras, but that is your lot.

We are seeing a group already kick up a big fuss with the use of violence over a boarder, so just imagine that but the roles reversed. You might well like that though so you wouldn't have to do this revisionist history and blame republicans.

Again though, what "thousand hoops" would you have to jump through. Please, tell us.

There are number plate recognition cameras. Sorry to bring you out of your innocent world thinking no border exists

nullzero

downcow wrote: »

Oh my goodness, you say bigotry! You needed that off your chest.

My father was from Donegal. He loved his roots and instilled a love for Donegal in all his family. I’ve enjoyed holidays in Donegal, Shankill (Dublin). I’ve walked in Kerry, Connemara, Wicklow and Donegal. Rosnowlagh is beautiful.
Unionists gripe with Ireland (well mine anyway) was around a few things.
You harboured terrorists who were killing my people (then that was sorted when you started extraditing - thank you)
You laid a very aggressive claim over my country (then that was sorted and you removed it - thank you)
You started grooming our footballers and tried to get them to switch to you (that’s ok now as none seem to want to go - thanks for not being an attractive option)
You played fast and lose with our identity, peace and future by using the threat of violence and supporting the Eu intransigence to get the temporary border in Irish see - I trust I will thank you one day for rising up on that

So I don’t hate you or your country and I certainly don’t hate Catholics. We have the most advanced equality legislation re religion in the world.
I hate what your country has done to us - eg the few examples above but I don’t hate you or your country. I hate the actions not the people.
We were building an inclusive society until you and boris and the Eu screwed us over. But we faced a murderous sectarian campaign for 30 years by what many claim was most effective terrorist organisation in the western world. It done nothing but unite and strengthen us. Sometimes the more that are against you the stronger you get. So I have no (long term) fear for the people of ni Catholic, Protestant, nationalist, unionist. We will come through this

I never mentioned religion.

This country is not aligned with hard-line extremists, we are a modern secular progressive nation.

You may not hate the Irish but your country operated an apartheid system that treated people who identified as Irish as second class citizens. Unionists identify as British but the sense of superiority over the Irish is central to what it means to be a unionist.

The problem for unionists is that the Britain you align yourselves with does not identify with you at all.

If you want to talk about who has been on the receiving end of the worst treatment by the other side the losses incurred by Northern Irish unionists are not anywhere near what was suffered by the Irish people over centuries of abuse and neglect. Britain played fast and lose with more than our national identity, they completely dehumanised the Irish people and thought nothing of allowing us to starve to death, but yeah we evened the score by trying to get your footballers to play for us.

For what it's worth I think the only reasonable solution for Northern Ireland is for it to become an independent nation. That would force you to grow the hell up and work together instead of being indulged by Westminster or Leinster House to continue engaging in your favourite pass time, hating each other.

Atlantic Dawn

downcow wrote: »

There are number plate recognition cameras. Sorry to bring you out of your innocent world thinking no border exists

Here they are on the approach and exit of Newry on each side of the road...



https://www.google.com/maps/@54.1427843,-6.3427581,3a,75y,203.37h,91.28t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sGuBUuoRwjv5KUr_wfkzZSA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

Frank Bullitt

downcow wrote: »

There are number plate recognition cameras. Sorry to bring you out of your innocent world thinking no border exists

That is a far cry from checking goods travelling between the EU and UK, sweetheart.

briany

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

Donegal has the only annual Orange Order 12th of July parade in the ROI. You'd never find anyone objecting to it or the marching route.

In a UI scenario, the twelfth would also become a national holiday for the entire Island and we'd all be spending the day in the pub, just like Paddys.

I wouldn't object at all to the 12th of July being a nationwide bank holiday in the event of a UI. Would mean an extra bank holiday, or else one being moved from elsewhere in the year. Either would be fine, but I'd prefer the former.

The only thing is that I could see Orangemen getting annoyed as the day is slowly co-opted into being essentially St. Patrick's day 2, but in the height of summer, with tourists walking around Dublin wearing big plush orange Leprechaun hats.

downcow

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

Here they are on the approach and exit of Newry on each side of the road...



https://www.google.com/maps/@54.1427843,-6.3427581,3a,75y,203.37h,91.28t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sGuBUuoRwjv5KUr_wfkzZSA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

Yeah absolutely.

downcow

This was sent to me tonight by a catholic friend who thought it was excellent. I can’t disagree.
Persevere to the end. I think it gets a lot of the nuisances as to why the current trouble.
https://unherd.com/2021/04/the-tragedy-of-ulsters-lost-boys/?=frbottom&__FB_PRIVATE_TRACKING__=%7B%22loggedout_browser_id%22%3A%225717e2e2c1892c7204472816521e70979ce55c60%22%7D&fbclid=IwAR1k_NCjT8x8r0PqN-glYxoPHdufuZd5EMZmcjC082_N5sJpk5tFc48PT3w

trixi001

Five Eighth wrote: »

My post, if you reread it, clearly recognises that Naomi Long is of a unionist persuasion. My point is that neither of the main Unionists parties (Official/Ulster Unionist or DUP) has produced a leader of her calibre. In fact, Naomi's party (Alliance) has previously been accused in NI by unionists has being part of the 'Pan Nationalist Front'.

Naomi Long is not a unionist, any more so than SDLP or SF are..they support the GFA, and therefore the status quo that is NI is in the UK until such times as the people of NI decide otherwise...

Naomi and the AP are the party for all of NI, they want Northern Ireland to prosper, regardless of if the authority comes from London or Dublin

Naomi Long is an excellent politician, and both Nationalists and Unionists find it hard to accept that there are people here who aren't either..they are neutral.. and don't identify as either - she may be a protestant, but isn't a unionist or loyalist

I have voted for the AP most of my life, and i am a Nationalist, and in the event of a border poll will vote for a UI, but until that day comes or I will continue to vote for non-aligned parties, as i don't believe the division does any good, as both sides are too busy arguing over petty things instead of the important things that matter, like Education, the HSC, unemployment etc if the non-aligned parties were the major parties in Stormont, more might be done to make NI an economic success and a fair and peaceful society.

This is an excellent article explaining the position of the Alliance Party

https://www.belfastlive.co.uk/news/belfast-news/alliance-party-leader-naomi-long-16400764

Seth Brundle

downcow wrote: »

So you think supporting a border through the middle of the UK supports the gfa?

The UK government were the ones that proposed, agreed it with the EU and then ratified the NIP which solidified the border in the Irish sea.
The UK government wanted to be able to complete a trade deal with the EU. They also wanted to be able to complete trade deals with the USA. The UK government therefore knew that they could not impose a hard border on the island of Ireland as there woukd be no trade deals if that was the case. They therefore chose to place a border in the Irish sea. It has nothing to do with Leo, thenurish government or the EU. The UK decided on where to put this border. The EU then accepted that choice.
If unionists and loyalists want to blame the EU and Ireland and Leo and whoever else for it then fine but they do so in ignorance. The border is completely down to PM Johnson and his desire to ensure that Brexit got done.
Has the unionists and loyalists wanted to ensure that there would continue to be no border in the Irish sea then they should have pulled the DUP up on what they did to PM May. But they didn't so we are here now.

As for the current rejection of the border in the Irish sea, maybe downcow, you as a unionist can tell us why a border is unacceptable there now when unionists had been happy with one there in the past?

Seth Brundle

downcow wrote: »

My point is that there is no clean definition. I actually don’t see any significant difference. Same as nationalist and republican.

Brexit is an English nationalist dream. I'm not aware of any English republican aspirations though.

downcow

trixi001 wrote: »

Naomi Long is not a unionist, any more so than SDLP or SF are..they support the GFA, and therefore the status quo that is NI is in the UK until such times as the people of NI decide otherwise...

Naomi and the AP are the party for all of NI, they want Northern Ireland to prosper, regardless of if the authority comes from London or Dublin

Naomi Long is an excellent politician, and both Nationalists and Unionists find it hard to accept that there are people here who aren't either..they are neutral.. and don't identify as either - she may be a protestant, but isn't a unionist or loyalist

I have voted for the AP most of my life, and i am a Nationalist, and in the event of a border poll will vote for a UI, but until that day comes or I will continue to vote for non-aligned parties, as i don't believe the division does any good, as both sides are too busy arguing over petty things instead of the important things that matter, like Education, the HSC, unemployment etc if the non-aligned parties were the major parties in Stormont, more might be done to make NI an economic success and a fair and peaceful society.

This is an excellent article explaining the position of the Alliance Party

https://www.belfastlive.co.uk/news/belfast-news/alliance-party-leader-naomi-long-16400764

Of course she is a unionist. I am a unionist who supports the gfa. In a border poll Naomi long will vote to stay in UK. If she is your political representative why don’t you ask her how she would vote - and watch her duck and dive if she knows you are a nationalist

downcow

Seth Brundle wrote: »

The UK government were the ones that proposed, agreed it with the EU and then ratified the NIP which solidified the border in the Irish sea.
The UK government wanted to be able to complete a trade deal with the EU. They also wanted to be able to complete trade deals with the USA. The UK government therefore knew that they could not impose a hard border on the island of Ireland as there woukd be no trade deals if that was the case. They therefore chose to place a border in the Irish sea. It has nothing to do with Leo, thenurish government or the EU. The UK decided on where to put this border. The EU then accepted that choice.
If unionists and loyalists want to blame the EU and Ireland and Leo and whoever else for it then fine but they do so in ignorance. The border is completely down to PM Johnson and his desire to ensure that Brexit got done.
Has the unionists and loyalists wanted to ensure that there would continue to be no border in the Irish sea then they should have pulled the DUP up on what they did to PM May. But they didn't so we are here now.

As for the current rejection of the border in the Irish sea, maybe downcow, you as a unionist can tell us why a border is unacceptable there now when unionists had been happy with one there in the past?

To quote my Donegal father. ‘It’s a long road, that has no turning’

nullzero

briany wrote: »

I wouldn't object at all to the 12th of July being a nationwide bank holiday in the event of a UI. Would mean an extra bank holiday, or else one being moved from elsewhere in the year. Either would be fine, but I'd prefer the former.

The only thing is that I could see Orangemen getting annoyed as the day is slowly co-opted into being essentially St. Patrick's day 2, but in the height of summer, with tourists walking around Dublin wearing big plush orange Leprechaun hats.

Of course the unionists would be annoyed by that as the 12th is a celebration of their victory over Catholicism. The 12th should in their eyes only be seen as a celebration of their superiority over all Irish and or Catholic people, not some namby pamby means of creating an inclusive progressive society in a United Ireland. Unionists accepting the 12th as a national holiday in a United Ireland is akin to Nazi Germany celebrating the Passover.