Belfast Disturbances

20silkcut

O'Neill wrote: »

The depressing thing about it for me is how f**king usless our sec. of state is, Brandon Lewis. Julian Smith was the only competent man in this Government and he got sacked! I'm seeing a lot of Mo Mowlam stuff on social media atm, she is very sadly missed and tbh someone like her is very badly needed now imo.

The current conservative government was selected on their zeal for brexit not on any kind of standard political order of merit.

They are a motley crew of mediocrity.

Long gone are the days of pragmatic British politicians like John major, mo mowlam, Tony Blair et al in northern affairs.

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Unionist politicians have failed you, you said you agreed with that. Who will you switch your vote to?

I said the dup failed me.
As always it will depend on the election.
Council - I will vote for my hard working uup councillor.
He may well end up standing for Stormont so again he will get my vote.
Westminster - 99% sure this time I will vote SDLP I believe we can defeat our sitting sf apologist for sectarian murder

What about you. How will you vote?

downcow

nullzero wrote: »

What point were you making then?

You know what? Don't bother, we both know you don't have a point.

You must take posts in context.
I was replying to a very nasty post about my community which said, amongst other rubbish, that the 12th parade burns tricolours.
I simply said that the St Patrick’s parade burns union flags. I didn’t even bother pointing out that the 12 parade does not burn flags.

If you doubt me then I will post photos of union flag burning at St pats parade and you post photos of tricolour burning at 12th parade. I am confident I will succeed and you will not.

Sorry if you were bothered by my challenging lies and defamations of my culture. I’ll try not to do it again

downcow

UDAWINNER wrote: »

Would you attend a bonfire on the 12th that had the tricolor burning or a poster burning, simple question.

Not now. I have done 30+ years ago as a young man

Would you attend council funded St Patrick’s parade in Belfast knowing there is a history of burning union flags?

Would you attend council funded west Belfast festival, big last night concert knowing oo aa up the ra will be chanted by the crowd?

Two simple questions

rockatansky

Ah the annual July hate fest will soon be upon us! No doubt it will be extra special this year to release all the pent up bile from last year's cancelled marches.

One bonfire night always makes me laugh a little, they put a big flag with a black Glasgow Celtic players name on it. Absolute simpletons.

The North of Ireland can never be left alone again. Still too much hate from one side. The Shinners are the moderates these days.

rockatansky

downcow wrote: »

Not now. I have done 30+ years ago as a young man

Would you attend council funded St Patrick’s parade in Belfast knowing there is a history of burning union flags?

Would you attend council funded west Belfast festival, big last night concert knowing oo aa up the ra will be chanted by the crowd?

Two simple questions

You should see what the Paddy's parades are like down here, they have a designated union jack flag burning at the start of every march. Disgraceful.

downcow

banie01 wrote: »

I don't disagree, particularly with regard to the poster in question.
I'd qualify it a little more in that some unionists are of that Ilk.
The veneer of rationality, is lain thin over the absolute whataboutery and absurdity of some positions.

The vague nods towards folk wisdom, long roads and no turns...
With SFA, nothing, not one scintilla of a suggestion towards an alternative to the situation that Unionism itself conspired to place itself in.

No recognition of the perfidity that was spun to them by the Conservative and Unionist party.
No recognition of the simple fact that DUP pursuit of a hard brexit, led to May's backstop being thrown out.
Which is going to harm the mainland too, but not as suddenly as it has N.I.

The blame is lain everywhere but at the feet of Foster, Dodds, Wilson and co...
It's childish and it's dishonest in the extreme.
Unionism had a chance to lay value on the union, and instead chose to sell themselves and N.I out for a quick win of £1bln and the pseudo influence that the confidence and supply agreement brought.

Were I of a more biblical bent?
I'd remind those masters of the DUP shambles that not only did Judas, suffering from guilt and remorse at his betrayal of Jesus attempt to return the 30 pieces of silver...
He also killed himself!
So we can see he at least tried to own his actions!

Has the DUP made any effort to pay back their 30 pieces?
Has there been any acknowledgement of political culpability or a mea culpa?
A resignation?

Anything other than the current situation being the fault of the Irish, the EU, Gove, anyone but the DUP?

I have already said most of the above but you are not hearing it.
The dup have been totally incompetent.
I share your issue over the £1b. I challenged and upset an MP two weeks ago (jeffry) by telling him I was disgusted that he blackmailed to UK people for £1b to keep Corbin out, and even worse that the dup still brag about it. You can imagine how that went down.

You won’t own the use of the threat of violence to get the Irish Sea border
Why do you think Leo took pictures of bombed customs posts to an Eu dinner?
How would you feel if the Eu had decided to put the border on the island following Arlene taking photos of the Dublin bombings to an Eu dinner and saying this is what will happen if you interfere with our access to gb?

So unionist leaders are condemning tricolour flags being burned but people are claiming that they're never burned. Why would they condemn something that apparently never happens?



This thread is basically a futile conversation with an old die-hard unionist. I don't know why we bother.

downcow

rockatansky wrote: »

Ah the annual July hate fest will soon be upon us! No doubt it will be extra special this year to release all the pent up bile from last year's cancelled marches.

One bonfire night always makes me laugh a little, they put a big flag with a black Glasgow Celtic players name on it. Absolute simpletons.

The North of Ireland can never be left alone again. Still too much hate from one side. The Shinners are the moderates these days.

You are that moderate that you take great care to not even give my country it’s name. You had to correct spell check to get the capitals in the correct places
Haha
North of Ireland my arse - moderate my arse

downcow

[Deleted User] wrote: »

So unionist leaders are condemning tricolour flags being burned but people are claiming that they're never burned. Why would they condemn something that apparently never happens?



This thread is basically a futile conversation with an old die-hard unionist. I don't know why we bother.

Now who brought up bonfires etc. Wasn’t me.
And I will not get into tot for tat posts of each others bonfires.
If you really want to them why don’t you post the most vile unionist bonfire and I’ll post the most vile nationalist bonfire and we’ll let the posters decide if there is any difference? All disgusting

downcow

downcow wrote: »

Now who brought up bonfires etc. Wasn’t me.
And I will not get into tot for tat posts of each others bonfires.
If you really want to them why don’t you post the most vile unionist bonfire and I’ll post the most vile nationalist bonfire and we’ll let the posters decide if there is any difference? All disgusting

Thirty minutes ago, you said tricolours aren't burned. It's absolutely impossible to take you seriously.

downcow

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Thirty minutes ago, you said tricolours aren't burned. It's absolutely impossible to take you seriously.

Are you trying to misinterpret?

I said tricolours were not burned at 12th parades.
I said I attended 11th night bonfires over 30 years ago and saw tricolours burned.

Oh try to keep up please please

nullzero

downcow wrote: »

You must take posts in context.
I was replying to a very nasty post about my community which said, amongst other rubbish, that the 12th parade burns tricolours.
I simply said that the St Patrick’s parade burns union flags. I didn’t even bother pointing out that the 12 parade does not burn flags.

If you doubt me then I will post photos of union flag burning at St pats parade and you post photos of tricolour burning at 12th parade. I am confident I will succeed and you will not.

Sorry if you were bothered by my challenging lies and defamations of my culture. I’ll try not to do it again

Lies and defamation?

Cop on.

Are you seriously suggesting that people who attend marches on the twelfth have never been to a bonfire the night before where tricolours, effigies and political posters have been burned?
The 12th marches and the bonfires are demonstrably linked to one another. You are arguing in bad faith by pursuing this further.

Anyone burning Union Jack's on St Patrick's day is an idiot. That does not happen in the Republic of Ireland and it does not happen internationally when St Patrick's day is celebrated across the world. Burning flags is not easily associated with St Patrick's day where as it is factually easily associated with the 12th of July which is a celebration of killing of Catholics.

You talk about lies and defamation of your culture, a culture which is predicated on the supremacy of protestant Unionists over the Irish, cry me a river whilst your community still Sings about being up to its knees in fenian blood. No lies were told, you just don't like the fact that you're on the wrong side of history.

Hilariously you now see yourselves as victims because you are no longer a majority of the population, now the worm is turning your noses are out of joint. At least you will still be able to find jobs and accommodation for your families unlike the nationalists in the North before the civil rights movement.

Unionists need to remember their attitude to others when they begin crying foul of a world that is finally waking up to how backwards they are and is starting to leave them behind.

The attention your community received when the DUP were becoming kingmakers for Theresa May's government a few years ago was a blessing. The rational people of the United Kingdom got the opportunity to focus on just how backwards, sick and twisted Ulster Unionists are and they didn't like what they saw. You have no place in the modern world and I and many others look forward to watching the decline of your antediluvian belief systems.

Lashes28

Does the unions jack get burned every St Patricks Day? The only articles I can find is from 2015. And then in 2018 when they banned the tricolour on St Patrick's Day as to not upset the loyalists.

downcow

nullzero wrote: »

Lies and defamation?

Cop on.

Are you seriously suggesting that people who attend marches on the twelfth have never been to a bonfire the night before where tricolours, effigies and political posters have been burned?
The 12th marches and the bonfires are demonstrably linked to one another. You are arguing in bad faith by pursuing this further.

Anyone burning Union Jack's on St Patrick's day is an idiot. That does not happen in the Republic of Ireland and it does not happen internationally when St Patrick's day is celebrated across the world. Burning flags is not easily associated with St Patrick's day where as it is factually easily associated with the 12th of July which is a celebration of killing of Catholics.

You talk about lies and defamation of your culture, a culture which is predicated on the supremacy of protestant Unionists over the Irish, cry me a river whilst your community still Sings about being up to its knees in fenian blood. No lies were told, you just don't like the fact that you're on the wrong side of history.

Hilariously you now see yourselves as victims because you are no longer a majority of the population, now the worm is turning your noses are out of joint. At least you will still be able to find jobs and accommodation for your families unlike the nationalists in the North before the civil rights movement.

Unionists need to remember their attitude to others when they begin crying foul of a world that is finally waking up to how backwards they are and is starting to leave them behind.

The attention your community received when the DUP were becoming kingmakers for Theresa May's government a few years ago was a blessing. The rational people of the United Kingdom got the opportunity to focus on just how backwards, sick and twisted Ulster Unionists are and they didn't like what they saw. You have no place in the modern world and I and many others look forward to watching the decline of your antediluvian belief systems.

Wow. What a hatefilled post.
I won’t bother dissecting the lies in it that are being used to deflect from the earlier lies you have been caught out on.

I think you are now admitting tricolours are not burned at 12th parades. That took to much energy to get there so if you want to continue believing the nonsense in that last hatefilled post, then carry on as I don’t have the energy to waste on you.

Unfortunately for you, unless you can come up with some way of exterminating all of us, then we will just have to have a place in this world.

You sound like a nice guy (or not)

Bobeagleburger

Crazy comparison.

The 12th is a sectarian holiday. Saying that, not everyone burns flags etc.

Seth Brundle

downcow wrote: »

You won’t own the use of the threat of violence to get the Irish Sea border
Why do you think Leo took pictures of bombed customs posts to an Eu dinner?
How would you feel if the Eu had decided to put the border on the island following Arlene taking photos of the Dublin bombings to an Eu dinner and saying this is what will happen if you interfere with our access to gb?

You're doing it again.
The border in the Irish sea is down to the UK government. They were put in that position by the DUP. The EU did not put it there. The Irish government did not put it there. Leo and his pictures did not put it there. Brexit was never going to work and it was imperitave on the EU side to minimise the fallout from Brexit.
Brexit is a British construct. The fallout from Brexit belongs to those who created it.
Stop saying that others are responsible for the fallout of Brexit because it is a lie!

nullzero

downcow wrote: »

Wow. What a hatefilled post.
I won’t bother dissecting the lies in it that are being used to deflect from the earlier lies you have been caught out on.

I think you are now admitting tricolours are not burned at 12th parades. That took to much energy to get there so if you want to continue believing the nonsense in that last hatefilled post, then carry on as I don’t have the energy to waste on you.

Unfortunately for you, unless you can come up with some way of exterminating all of us, then we will just have to have a place in this world.

You sound like a nice guy (or not)

Did I once say flags were burned at parades?

No.

Flag burning is a part of celebrating the 12th whether you want to admit it or not. Just because flags aren't being burnt as part of the parades is not the issue.

You won't bother dissecting lies in my post because there are none.

You are attempting to weasel your way out of just how backwards and sectarian your culture is.

When did I say anything about exterminating your people? I stated you are becoming a minority in Northern Ireland and I hope over time your nonsensical belief system dies out. Not your people. Your people need to evolve into something better, it's long overdue.

The feigning victimhood, the inability to be honest or address facts, all hallmarks of the Ulster Unionist, and all reasons your preposterous culture will eventually die out.

Natterjack from Kerry

Downcow, I havent really been up there much of the last year, and unable to quiz my business chums on this topic as I would have.

But to what extent would you say this recent violence, more than a reaction against the technical Brexit issues themselves, and more than a warning shot against the background chatter of border polls, is a manifestation of a shattered illusion - that Britain does not really care about Northern Ireland Unionists ?

The England-centred Brexit movement itself. The dawning realisation that the practical implications of a Brexit on Northern Ireland was given no thought whatsoever by everybody in Britain from the Faragists, to the Conservative party, to the civil service, and to the population of Britain as a whole, was a sharp shock. NI then seen as a 'problem' through the negotiations that the UK, Brexiteers, govt, and negotiators, wished it didnt have to deal with. And then the final crystalisation of that, in the signing of a deal that did indeed create two levels of UK-ness. Effectively, 'getting Brexit done', meant getting it done for Britain, not the UK.

Previously, the enemy was the republic down the road, coveting the 6 counties. Or within, with bombs and bullets from from the neighbour. But London was always reassuringly there, even if it compromised somewhat for the likes of the GFA. But there was never a waver, that Unionist interests would always defended to the same level of those on the mainland.

That illusion has now been shattered. While the loss of Scotland would be fought strongly, and if lost, seen as a serious bodyblow to the UK's sense of itself, NI leaving, to whatever future, would be greeted with a collective sigh of relief from the other sixty million. Wishing it the best, but finally removaing a troublesome stone from its shoe. Unionist probably never saw the matter in this light until the last couple of years as the post Brexit fog cleared. And it was unthinkable, even though the picture was forming. Reversals, legal challenges to cancel Brexit, a second referendum, 'magical and imaginative solutions' from May and they likes would be miracles to save the day.
But nothing came. And we are seeing the rage of those who thought someone loved them, they were devoted body and soul to, but now realise, were not loved all along, and were cast aside when it suited.

Not that a united Ireland is the solution, or even a real possibility. Unionist are never going to go for that rebound relationship no matter how broken the heart. Is an independent Northern Ireland, with in it a burying once and for all any structured process for a united 32, not the path forward, once the hurt abates in unionism ?

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

I said the dup failed me.
As always it will depend on the election.
Council - I will vote for my hard working uup councillor.
He may well end up standing for Stormont so again he will get my vote.
Westminster - 99% sure this time I will vote SDLP I believe we can defeat our sitting sf apologist for sectarian murder

What about you. How will you vote?

You said you agree 100% with the tweet, which said:

The Agreement hasn’t failed unionism, Unionist politicians failed unionism .
They squandered the chances to sell the Union.

Junkyard Tom

Natterjack from Kerry wrote: »

Unionist are never going to go for that

Phase 1: 'never going to happen'.

Phase 2: 'not going to happen in our lifetimes anyway'.

Phase 3: 'not ready for this it's decades away yet'.

Phase 4: 'we can't afford it'.

Phase 5: 'Unionists must buy in'.

Congratulations you're at 'Phase 5' in my 'Partitionist Phases of Grief' scale.

Dyr

steddyeddy wrote: »

What did the DUP do for the deprived loyalist areas in NI? I'm not saying they do nothing but I would love to know.

They work closely with one of the key generators of revenue in those areas...the drug dealers.

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

You said you agree 100% with the tweet, which said:

Yes exactly. What’s your point

Penfailed

downcow wrote: »

I think that’s a fair question, if a little naive.
I didn’t vote as I was at the euros. If I had voted I probably would have voted to stay. My country voted for brexit. I am a democrat.
They did not vote to stay in everything bar the decision making.
So I accepted brexit and was prepared to leave.
Then the Eu wanted to punish UK and make sure no one else leaves. Roi have them the ace card by playing up republican terrorism should ni go out fully with UK. They tried everything to screw us.
So that’s why my anger is directed towards Roi and I can assure most unionists anger is that direction. Your pm showed us that threat of violence still works. The street disturbances are confirming that as other night it was lead item on bbc world news. Not a good lesson

The EU weren't trying to punish the UK. That's just nonsense. The UK couldn't leave without either a border in Ireland or a border in the sea. What's easier to do? Four ports versus three hundred roads? It's logistics...and it's logical. The threat of violence was not the top reason.

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

Yes exactly. What’s your point

The Agreement hasn’t failed unionism, Unionist politicians failed unionism .

You agreed 100% with the above. When asked who you were changing your vote to you narrowed it down to the DUP.

Sunny Disposition

Wonder would a hard north south border, an effective unionist veto over public housing and public sector employment for Catholics, gerrymandered electoral boundaries and a Protestant run police force be enough to reduce the understandable anger of the protestors?
Things have gone way too far since the GFA, time
to cop on a bit.

Akrasia

downcow wrote: »

Haha. There is no rabies in the Eu but there is rabies in the Eu. What are you on tonight.

There is no rabies in the UK of ni & gb. There is rabies in the Eu.


Who will remove the cameras? And how?

Humans arriving in the EU with rabies infections acquired outside the EU does not mean that there are ‘rabies in the EU’
Rabies is not transmitted from human to human in the same way that if someone took a flight from Africa to Alaska and got diagnosed with Malaria in Alaska, it doesn’t mean ‘there is Malaria in Alaska’

And these magical cameras on the Ni border could be removed with anyone who can throw rocks or use a ladder, unless you put something else to protect them, maybe a guard post? Then suddenly it’s not just cameras anymore
And those cameras would not be any kind of a solution to protecting a border between the biggest single market in the world, and a country that has explicitly said they’re not going to secure their own borders because they don’t have the resources to do so

Cameras could possibly help prosecute smugglers later on, if they’re particularly stupid smugglers, but would go absolutely nothing to prevent the smuggling from taking place

Brexit, in particular Johnson’s extremist version of a Hard brexit has necessitated the erection of a border between the UK and the EU. There are border controls at Dover, those same controls would be required on every road between NI and the ROI, or as was negotiated, NI stays in the single market and the border is moved to the Irish Sea

briany

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

Phase 1: 'never going to happen'.

Phase 2: 'not going to happen in our lifetimes anyway'.

Phase 3: 'not ready for this it's decades away yet'.

Phase 4: 'we can't afford it'.

Phase 5: 'Unionists must buy in'.

Congratulations you're at 'Phase 5' in my 'Partitionist Phases of Grief' scale.

Well, yeah, they would have to buy in to some extent. There'll probably always be that element who wouldn't accept a UI, but why not do what can be done to bring in the more reasonable among them?

To suppress or ignore that population as a whole, would eventually cause history to repeat itself, and if a car bomb goes off in Dublin, choruses of "A Nation Once Again" ring quite hollow to the victims.

I'm not saying we should bow to violence, but it's a fact of life that still has to be considered, and voters must be aware, north or south, that there would be an element willing to kick off in the event of a UI, and if they still vote yes to it, then absolutely fair enough.

FrancieBrady

briany wrote: »

Well, yeah, they would have to buy in to some extent. There'll probably always be that element who wouldn't accept a UI, but why not do what can be done to bring in the more reasonable among them?

To suppress or ignore that population as a whole, would eventually cause history to repeat itself, and if a car bomb goes off in Dublin, choruses of "A Nation Once Again" ring quite hollow to the victims.

I'm not saying we should bow to violence, but it's a fact of life that still has to be considered, and voters must be aware, north or south, that there would be an element willing to kick off in the event of a UI, and if they still vote yes to it, then absolutely fair enough.

Are you saying 'the more reasonable among them' will be setting off car bombs in Dublin? Seems to me you are.

The 'more reasonable' (the vast majority of Unionists are) are democrats. I wouldn't expect them to be initially happy but I would not expect them to become undemocratic suddenly either.
They have said, by voting for the GFA and by working and supporting it over the years that they will accept the majority decision, just as nationalists/republicans have said the same and accepted the will of the majority for the last 23 years.

Penfailed

Penfailed wrote: »

The EU weren't trying to punish the UK. That's just nonsense. The UK couldn't leave without either a border in Ireland or a border in the sea. What's easier to do? Four ports versus three hundred roads? It's logistics...and it's logical. The threat of violence was not the top reason.

The UK couldn't leave without a border being somewhere because of Arlene Foster. She alone is responsible for that requirement as she is the one who scuppered May's Deal with the backstop.

Wikipedia: The backstop would have required keeping Northern Ireland in some aspects of the Single Market, until an alternative arrangement were agreed between the EU and the UK. The proposal also provided for the UK as a whole to have a common customs territory with the EU until a solution were delivered to avoid the need for customs controls within the UK (between Northern Ireland and Great Britain).

Had she sat on her hands for the last five years, Northern Ireland wouldn't have any issues. It would be fully aligned with GB and Ireland as the whole lot of us would still be in the Customs Union.

I have no idea why Arlene Foster thought it was a good idea to intervene and set Northern Ireland on a predictable and unstoppable course towards division and borders. It was an enormous political misstep that should the focus of Unionist ire, but instead, they come onto Irish message boards and lecture Irish people about how it is our fault that we agreed to the Northern Ireland Protocol, which was proposed by their own Prime Minister.

I will labour this point for as long as I have to. It will eventually sink in if is seen often enough.