Belfast Disturbances

Junkyard Tom

briany wrote: »

why not do what can be done to bring in the more reasonable among them?

Oh for sure but those calling for a border poll only when Unionists agree to it know that that is essentially gifting them a veto on it ever taking place.

briany

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Are you saying 'the more reasonable among them' will be setting off car bombs in Dublin? Seems to me you are.

The 'more reasonable' (the vast majority of Unionists are) are democrats. I wouldn't expect them to be initially happy but I would not expect them to become undemocratic suddenly either.
They have said, by voting for the GFA and by working and supporting it over the years that they will accept the majority decision, just as nationalists/republicans have said the same and accepted the will of the majority for the last 23 years.

No, I'm not saying that the more reasonable among them will be setting off bombs in Dublin, but to ignore that community as a whole would, I think, make the hardcore Loyalist paramilitaries feel like they have a real mandate to commit violence. Reasonable Unionists may be democrats, but if a UI becomes a case of, "Learn Amhrán na Bhfiann, Tricolour over Belfast city hall, you can have OO marches on a dirt track outside Coleraine, no official status for Ulster Scots etc.", then I can see where disquiet starts to brew.

Because of the way the border poll is outlined in the GFA, there's no provision for what the country would actually look like in the event a UI was voted for. We just know that this would be worked out afterward. Pragmatic NI Unionists could vote for a UI on the basis of a promise of it being a shared country, and then if that promise isn't fulfilled, then this is where problems can arise.

FrancieBrady

briany wrote: »

No, I'm not saying that the more reasonable among them will be setting off bombs in Dublin, but to ignore that community as a whole would, I think, make the hardcore Loyalist paramilitaries feel like they have a real mandate to commit violence. Reasonable Unionists may be democrats, but if a UI becomes a case of, "Learn Amhrán na Bhfiann, Tricolour over Belfast city hall, you can have OO marches on a dirt track outside Coleraine, no official status for Ulster Scots etc.", then I can see where disquiet starts to brew.

Because of the way the border poll is outlined in the GFA, there's no provision for what the country would actually look like in the event a UI was voted for. We just know that this would be worked out afterward. Pragmatic NI Unionists could vote for a UI on the basis of a promise of it being a shared country, and then if that promise isn't fulfilled, then this is where problems can arise.

WHO is proposing a UI that looks like that?

This is the kind of dangerous emotional sensationalist language that needs to stop. NOBODY is proposing any such thing.

Penfailed

downcow wrote: »

I tiny little bit of fairness was all that was required.
Only check what’s necessary and stop the nonsense. Accept UK is left and stop using ni issue to try and punish UK.
My daughter wants to come over from Scotland next month but she will have to get her dog vaccinated for rabies first. Mad.
If Eu would sort out covid vaccines instead of worrying about my daughters dog having rabies.

That's a UK issue, not an EU issue. They are checking what is necessary. It's not a punishment. The UK want to diverge from the standards, NI is part of the Customs Union therefore there must be checks.

banie01

briany wrote: »

No, I'm not saying that the more reasonable among them will be setting off bombs in Dublin, but to ignore that community as a whole would, I think, make the hardcore Loyalist paramilitaries feel like they have a real mandate to commit violence. Reasonable Unionists may be democrats, but if a UI becomes a case of, "Learn Amhrán na Bhfiann, Tricolour over Belfast city hall, you can have OO marches on a dirt track outside Coleraine, no official status for Ulster Scots etc.", then I can see where disquiet starts to brew.

Because of the way the border poll is outlined in the GFA, there's no provision for what the country would actually look like in the event a UI was voted for. We just know that this would be worked out afterward. Pragmatic NI Unionists could vote for a UI on the basis of a promise of it being a shared country, and then if that promise isn't fulfilled, then this is where problems can arise.

The rise of SF in the polls down south has no doubt played a role in fuelling fears regarding the potential political landscape in the 26 come any border poll.

SF despite their efforts to portray themselves as an "All Ireland" party, the simple fact is that they pursue different policies on both sides of the border and that on the Northern side of the border many of their policies are antagonistic to Unionists.

The simple truth is though, that "parity of esteem" is enshrined in the GFA.
There needs to be appreciation of that across the board North and South.
That means that an Irish Language act in the 6 is imperative but also should any unification take place that a similar accommodation is made for Ulster Scots.

Of far more importance come any reunification but less politically volatile.
Are the NHS, a move towards Slaintecare and universal health care here are needed to smooth the understandable fear on that front.
Schools and education. It would be quite rich of the 26 to dictate integration and reducing religious influence in schools when it is still quite pervasive down south both Catholic and CoI.
Welfare and housing: How does the segregation evident in housing allocation get addressed?
How do we ensure that any and all of the welfare supports endemic in N.I are replaced but affordable?
How do we ensure that as much of both NI and ROI aligns to ensure that economic growth is both accelerated and sustained to allow a degree of self sufficiency?

Or do we take an option akin to federalism and allow a continuation of the current state of self governance but with tighter purse strings?
With a range of financial supports aimed at improving all communities, meaningful integration and enterprise and employment supports?

The integration of ethnic identity other than traveller will also be interesting from the standpoint of employment law.
The scholar in me will be very curious to see the 1st case at the equality tribunal regarding an Ulster Scot Catholic being refused housing in a Catholic housing estate

None of the issues apart from the financial are actually insurmountable IMO.
Time and conciliation can and do soften stances but not overnight.

briany

FrancieBrady wrote: »

WHO is proposing a UI that looks like that?

This is the kind of dangerous emotional sensationalist language that needs to stop. NOBODY is proposing any such thing.

They can't propose it, because we haven't reached the point, yet. What I'm saying is that it can't be all one-way traffic if it came to discuss what a UI would actually look like. You have to reach a consensus with moderate Unionism on what Ireland would look like going forward, or at least how their community would be respected in a UI.

FrancieBrady

briany wrote: »

They can't propose it, because we haven't reached the point, yet. What I'm saying is that it can't be all one-way traffic if it came to discuss what a UI would actually look like. You have to reach a consensus with moderate Unionism on what Ireland would look like going forward, or at least how their community would be respected in a UI.

WHO is saying it will be any different?

You are indulging in sensationalist fear mongering. There is nobody saying that there will not be discussions on what a UI will look like. There is nobody saying that...nobody.

downcow

Natterjack from Kerry wrote: »

Downcow, I havent really been up there much of the last year, and unable to quiz my business chums on this topic as I would have.

But to what extent would you say this recent violence, more than a reaction against the technical Brexit issues themselves, and more than a warning shot against the background chatter of border polls, is a manifestation of a shattered illusion - that Britain does not really care about Northern Ireland Unionists ?

The England-centred Brexit movement itself. The dawning realisation that the practical implications of a Brexit on Northern Ireland was given no thought whatsoever by everybody in Britain from the Faragists, to the Conservative party, to the civil service, and to the population of Britain as a whole, was a sharp shock. NI then seen as a 'problem' through the negotiations that the UK, Brexiteers, govt, and negotiators, wished it didnt have to deal with. And then the final crystalisation of that, in the signing of a deal that did indeed create two levels of UK-ness. Effectively, 'getting Brexit done', meant getting it done for Britain, not the UK.

Previously, the enemy was the republic down the road, coveting the 6 counties. Or within, with bombs and bullets from from the neighbour. But London was always reassuringly there, even if it compromised somewhat for the likes of the GFA. But there was never a waver, that Unionist interests would always defended to the same level of those on the mainland.

That illusion has now been shattered. While the loss of Scotland would be fought strongly, and if lost, seen as a serious bodyblow to the UK's sense of itself, NI leaving, to whatever future, would be greeted with a collective sigh of relief from the other sixty million. Wishing it the best, but finally removaing a troublesome stone from its shoe. Unionist probably never saw the matter in this light until the last couple of years as the post Brexit fog cleared. And it was unthinkable, even though the picture was forming. Reversals, legal challenges to cancel Brexit, a second referendum, 'magical and imaginative solutions' from May and they likes would be miracles to save the day.
But nothing came. And we are seeing the rage of those who thought someone loved them, they were devoted body and soul to, but now realise, were not loved all along, and were cast aside when it suited.

Not that a united Ireland is the solution, or even a real possibility. Unionist are never going to go for that rebound relationship no matter how broken the heart. Is an independent Northern Ireland, with in it a burying once and for all any structured process for a united 32, not the path forward, once the hurt abates in unionism ?

I think there is a great misunderstanding about Northern Ireland's place in the UK and how Unionists see it. You talk about "London as always been reassuringly there". I certainly would not have said that, and I doubt anyone in Manchester, Glasgow, Isle of Bute, Cornwall, etc would make a statement like that either.
But rather than talk about 'Unionists', who are a broad church of people, I will tell you what I think.
You will see I have already said on this thread that for me, my first loyalty is to Northern Ireland. I love being part of the union, it has huge benefits for all of us that live in it, and we would be absolutely insane to leave it voluntarily. And of course, thanks to the GFA, that is the only way we can leave it, and I don't ever see our people, unionist or nationalist, making that insane move.

Probably as a kid I had unrealistic notions of the relationship of Northern Ireland with various regions and aspects of the United Kingdom.
Over 35 years ago, on 15 November 1985, I realised that our place in the union could not be taken for granted. Since then, I suppose the first priority is to stay out of a united Ireland than to stay in a UK. Still love our place in the UK and will do all I can to maintain it, but for you to suggest that this rioting is because people have suddenly discovered that everybody in the UK does not wake up every morning thinking how they would keep Northern Ireland in the UK, is a way off the mark. Unionists/loyalists are not naïve around this.

The one change since 15th of November 1985, is that our place IS now guaranteed in the UK. USA, ROI, EU, GB - none of them can oust us until we want to go. That is a fantastic position to be in.

We have been in the UK for over 200 years, Ireland has been in the EU maybe 50 years. I think you might get a rude awakening when you discover the love (mainly in the form of money) that came your way in the early days is about to turn into tough love. Brexit, Covid, etc means the love is going to run out. So if I was you I might focus on the difficult times you have ahead, more than I would focus on the difficult times you think Northern Ireland has ahead.
I have no doubt which position I would rather be in. I think near 100% of Unionists would agree with me as well as a very high percentage of nationalists.

So yes, our community will try and undo what the threat of violence produced through the Irish sea border. But whether we achieve that are not, we are still in a great place

maccored

downcow wrote: »

I think there is a great misunderstanding about Northern Ireland's place in the UK and how Unionists see it. You talk about "London as always been reassuringly there". I certainly would not have said that, and I doubt anyone in Manchester, Glasgow, Isle of Bute, Cornwall, etc would make a statement like that either.
But rather than talk about 'Unionists', who are a broad church of people, I will tell you what I think.
You will see I have already said on this thread that for me, my first loyalty is to Northern Ireland. I love being part of the union, it has huge benefits for all of us that live in it, and we would be absolutely insane to leave it voluntarily. And of course, thanks to the GFA, that is the only way we can leave it, and I don't ever see our people, unionist or nationalist, making that insane move.

Probably as a kid I had unrealistic notions of the relationship of Northern Ireland with various regions and aspects of the United Kingdom.
Over 35 years ago, on 15 November 1985, I realised that our place in the union could not be taken for granted. Since then, I suppose the first priority is to stay out of a united Ireland than to stay in a UK. Still love our place in the UK and will do all I can to maintain it, but for you to suggest that this rioting is because people have suddenly discovered that everybody in the UK does not wake up every morning thinking how they would keep Northern Ireland in the UK, is a way off the mark. Unionists/loyalists are not naïve around this.

The one change since 15th of November 1985, is that our place IS now guaranteed in the UK. USA, ROI, EU, GB - none of them can oust us until we want to go. That is a fantastic position to be in.

We have been in the UK for over 200 years, Ireland has been in the EU maybe 50 years. I think you might get a rude awakening when you discover the love (mainly in the form of money) that came your way in the early days is about to turn into tough love. Brexit, Covid, etc means the love is going to run out. So if I was you I might focus on the difficult times you have ahead, more than I would focus on the difficult times you think Northern Ireland has ahead.
I have no doubt which position I would rather be in. I think near 100% of Unionists would agree with me as well as a very high percentage of nationalists.

So yes, our community will try and undo what the threat of violence produced through the Irish sea border. But whether we achieve that are not, we are still in a great place

i must know all the wrong nationalists then, or else you are living in a fairy world

maccored

briany wrote: »

They can't propose it, because we haven't reached the point, yet. What I'm saying is that it can't be all one-way traffic if it came to discuss what a UI would actually look like. You have to reach a consensus with moderate Unionism on what Ireland would look like going forward, or at least how their community would be respected in a UI.

a UI has to be discussed and debated first, by everyone. all ideas thrown in, all ideas discussed and teased out.

briany

FrancieBrady wrote: »

WHO is saying it will be any different?

You are indulging in sensationalist fear mongering. There is nobody saying that there will not be discussions on what a UI will look like. There is nobody saying that...nobody.

What I'm saying is that it can't be all one-way traffic if it came to discuss what a UI would actually look like.

In fairness, I'm not saying it either.

RandomViewer

maccored wrote: »

i must know all the wrong nationalists then, or else you are living in a fairy world

They'd die alone rather than partner with someone who wasn't from their own bitter little sect, that why protestant birth rates are falling,

Natterjack from Kerry

maccored wrote: »

a UI has to be discussed and debated first, by everyone. all ideas thrown in, all ideas discussed and teased out.

I dont understand this line, or is it simply a position. Of course it doesnt have to be discussed. There is the status quo. To those for whom that is fine, why would they even have a discussion about something which they have no interest in moving to at all ?

Natterjack from Kerry

downcow wrote: »

So yes, our community will try and undo what the threat of violence produced through the Irish sea border. But whether we achieve that are not, we are still in a great place

I would agree with this 100%. Being caught in the wake of Brexit has actually put NI in a terrific position economically. And the GFA had already ensured a more equal NI for all its citizens was there to work on in the years ahead. The full extent of the economic opportunity for all in NI has not really been appreciated yet. And the transition has been troublesome but is truly just teething problems. The benefits will accrue in the decades to come. As that develops, talk of border polls and dismantling that will dissipate I think. But the rioters are seeing only the emotive sea border and betrayal by Johnson (and it is far more extensively rooted in the wider GB than one man), and not the bright future that will now develop. The talk of dialogue and discussing a vista of UI is not at all helpful either. Those promoting that line bear responsibility for the recent trouble.

McMurphy

Natterjack from Kerry wrote: »

I dont understand this line, or is it simply a position. Of course it doesnt have to be discussed. There is the status quo. To those for whom that is fine, why would they even have a discussion about something which they have no interest in moving to at all ?

This is the problem with a lot of people and assumptions, yes there's going to have to be a discussion on a united Ireland, and of course a future united Ireland will not necessarily be the same Ireland as the one we know and live in now.

Everything will have to be discussed from the future of education, policing, and our parliament to our health system, taxation and everything else.

No-one would expect unionists to have to be indoctrinated into the Ireland of today, with the tricolour, Amhrán na bhFiann and AGS being the accepted police force needing to be discussed for example.

Obviously there should not be one way kowtowing to unionists either, Irish people have many customs and traditions that unionists would have to accommodate also.

These things need to, and will be discussed when the time comes.

Sunny Disposition

McMurphy wrote: »

This is the problem with a lot of people and assumptions, yes there's going to have to be a discussion on a united Ireland, and of course a future united Ireland will not necessarily be the same Ireland as the one we know and live in now.

Everything will have to be discussed from the future of education, policing, and our parliament to our health system, taxation and everything else.

No-one would expect unionists to have to be indoctrinated into the Ireland of today, with the tricolour, Amhrán na bhFiann and AGS being the accepted police force needing to be discussed for example.

Obviously there should not be one way kowtowing to unionists either, Irish people have many customs and traditions that unionists would have to accommodate also.

These things need to, and will be discussed when the time comes.

The discussion needs to have started already, this may happen way faster than people think. At the very least we’re going to have nationalist first ministers and an economic United Ireland very soon. We may also need a new Comstitutional arrangement this decade, at least joint authority of UK and Ireland if that’s possible.
Unionists are not a majority any more and won’t be again, thinking this won’t change NI is very naive.

Penfailed

downcow wrote: »

I have just completed census recently and I ticked the box Northern Irish, but I am every bit as british as I ever was. So when you do your sums don’t assume Northern Irish are less british than those who tick british

Well, why did you tick the box you did then? Are you more Northern Irish than British?

Natterjack from Kerry

McMurphy wrote: »

This is the problem with a lot of people and assumptions, yes there's going to have to be a discussion on a united Ireland

But why ??? You are not answering the question of why there has to be.
People who have no interest in something, dont discuss what it might be like if it did happen, when they have no interest in such a development whatsoever.

Does the Republic have to have a discussion about rejoining the United Kingdom ? Do the former states of the DDR have to have a discussion about leaving the FRG and reforming an independent state ? Does Alsace have to have a discussion about rejoining Germany ?

Penfailed

downcow wrote: »

Oh my goodness, you say bigotry! You needed that off your chest.

My father was from Donegal. He loved his roots and instilled a love for Donegal in all his family. I’ve enjoyed holidays in Donegal, Shankill (Dublin). I’ve walked in Kerry, Connemara, Wicklow and Donegal. Rosnowlagh is beautiful.
Unionists gripe with Ireland (well mine anyway) was around a few things.
You harboured terrorists who were killing my people (then that was sorted when you started extraditing - thank you)
You laid a very aggressive claim over my country (then that was sorted and you removed it - thank you)
You started grooming our footballers and tried to get them to switch to you (that’s ok now as none seem to want to go - thanks for not being an attractive option)
You played fast and lose with our identity, peace and future by using the threat of violence and supporting the Eu intransigence to get the temporary border in Irish see - I trust I will thank you one day for rising up on that

So I don’t hate you or your country and I certainly don’t hate Catholics. We have the most advanced equality legislation re religion in the world.
I hate what your country has done to us - eg the few examples above but I don’t hate you or your country. I hate the actions not the people.
We were building an inclusive society until you and boris and the Eu screwed us over. But we faced a murderous sectarian campaign for 30 years by what many claim was most effective terrorist organisation in the western world. It done nothing but unite and strengthen us. Sometimes the more that are against you the stronger you get. So I have no (long term) fear for the people of ni Catholic, Protestant, nationalist, unionist. We will come through this

So...your gripe is with Ireland, as you have listed is as follows - harboured terrorists - doesn't happen. Claim over NI - irrelevant now. Grooming footballers - is this even serious? If Windsor Park wasn't such a cold house for one side of the community it wouldn't be an issue. Lastly, the sea border, introduced by the UK government and the EU (not Ireland) as a solution to a problem of their own invention. The threat of violence was way down the list of issues of having the border on land.

Penfailed

downcow wrote: »

There are number plate recognition cameras. Sorry to bring you out of your innocent world thinking no border exists

They are everywhere. They're not just at the border. They aren't even at every crossing point.

O'Neill

Sunny Disposition wrote: »

The discussion needs to have started already, this may happen way faster than people think. At the very least we’re going to have nationalist first ministers and an economic United Ireland very soon. We may also need a new Comstitutional arrangement this decade, at least joint authority of UK and Ireland if that’s possible.
Unionists are not a majority any more and won’t be again, thinking this won’t change NI is very naive.

To be fair, I believe that conversation is already starting to involve SOME in the unionist community the but the issue is that they need to happen in working class/ grass roots communities.

maccored

Natterjack from Kerry wrote: »

I dont understand this line, or is it simply a position. Of course it doesnt have to be discussed. There is the status quo. To those for whom that is fine, why would they even have a discussion about something which they have no interest in moving to at all ?

it doesnt have to be discussed? Theres a unionist mindset right there (and I thought natterjack was from kerry).

Of course it needs discussion. Sticking your head in the sand and pretending it doesn't wont work. That happened in the north with brexit and now look at whats happening/

smokie72

downcow wrote: »

I think there is a great misunderstanding about Northern Ireland's place in the UK and how Unionists see it. You talk about "London as always been reassuringly there". I certainly would not have said that, and I doubt anyone in Manchester, Glasgow, Isle of Bute, Cornwall, etc would make a statement like that either.
But rather than talk about 'Unionists', who are a broad church of people, I will tell you what I think.
You will see I have already said on this thread that for me, my first loyalty is to Northern Ireland. I love being part of the union, it has huge benefits for all of us that live in it, and we would be absolutely insane to leave it voluntarily. And of course, thanks to the GFA, that is the only way we can leave it, and I don't ever see our people, unionist or nationalist, making that insane move.

Probably as a kid I had unrealistic notions of the relationship of Northern Ireland with various regions and aspects of the United Kingdom.
Over 35 years ago, on 15 November 1985, I realised that our place in the union could not be taken for granted. Since then, I suppose the first priority is to stay out of a united Ireland than to stay in a UK. Still love our place in the UK and will do all I can to maintain it, but for you to suggest that this rioting is because people have suddenly discovered that everybody in the UK does not wake up every morning thinking how they would keep Northern Ireland in the UK, is a way off the mark. Unionists/loyalists are not naïve around this.

The one change since 15th of November 1985, is that our place IS now guaranteed in the UK. USA, ROI, EU, GB - none of them can oust us until we want to go. That is a fantastic position to be in.

We have been in the UK for over 200 years, Ireland has been in the EU maybe 50 years. I think you might get a rude awakening when you discover the love (mainly in the form of money) that came your way in the early days is about to turn into tough love. Brexit, Covid, etc means the love is going to run out. So if I was you I might focus on the difficult times you have ahead, more than I would focus on the difficult times you think Northern Ireland has ahead.
I have no doubt which position I would rather be in. I think near 100% of Unionists would agree with me as well as a very high percentage of nationalists.

So yes, our community will try and undo what the threat of violence produced through the Irish sea border. But whether we achieve that are not, we are still in a great place

Theres no guarantee. If the Scots decide to go Indy then the union is finished. And if growing nationalism in England is believed then who's to say there wouldn't be a referendum there on the union in the future. Especially if the Scots secede. In the 2011 UK census 75% of people in England identified themselves as English not British. It be interesting to see what it is in 2021.

And to balance that argument there's a lot down here who aren't in favour of a UI either. I think any talk of a border poll is premature. I personally don't want to see one for another 20 years and then only if there is discussion about the benefits and disadvantages of a shared island. I don't want the mistakes of the Brexit referendum revisited. Unionists have to argue and put the point across as to why staying in the Union is better for all.

There are some great things about been in the UK like the NHS for example but if Boris and Co. want to privatise it then what happens? Does London want to subsidise the North forever? The payroll and pensions of the civil/public service in the North is huge.

FrancieBrady

Natterjack from Kerry wrote: »

But why ??? You are not answering the question of why there has to be.
People who have no interest in something, dont discuss what it might be like if it did happen, when they have no interest in such a development whatsoever.

Does the Republic have to have a discussion about rejoining the United Kingdom ? Do the former states of the DDR have to have a discussion about leaving the FRG and reforming an independent state ? Does Alsace have to have a discussion about rejoining Germany ?

Yes the republic would have to discuss rejoining the UK if there was enough support for that. It's called a 'democracy' and it is called living up to an agreement you signed.

maccored

Natterjack from Kerry wrote: »

But why ??? You are not answering the question of why there has to be.
People who have no interest in something, dont discuss what it might be like if it did happen, when they have no interest in such a development whatsoever.

Does the Republic have to have a discussion about rejoining the United Kingdom ? Do the former states of the DDR have to have a discussion about leaving the FRG and reforming an independent state ? Does Alsace have to have a discussion about rejoining Germany ?

because people want the conversation - otherwise we wouldnt be discussing it now really, would we?

Just because people like YOU dont want to discuss it, doesnt mean that no-one should.

downcow

Sunny Disposition wrote: »

The discussion needs to have started already, this may happen way faster than people think. At the very least we’re going to have nationalist first ministers and an economic United Ireland very soon. We may also need a new Comstitutional arrangement this decade, at least joint authority of UK and Ireland if that’s possible.
Unionists are not a majority any more and won’t be again, thinking this won’t change NI is very naive.

I think you are confusing unionists with Protestants
I agree there will be a republican first minister next time but that changes nothing

downcow

Penfailed wrote: »

Well, why did you tick the box you did then? Are you more Northern Irish than British?

It’s hard to explain. I am both but couldn’t tick two boxes.
Maybe I bit like someone been asked to tick if they are a kerryman or an Irish man

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

It’s hard to explain. I am both but couldn’t tick two boxes.
Maybe I bit like someone been asked to tick if they are a kerryman or an Irish man

Identities are in a state of fluidity at the moment particularly formerly Unionist ones. There will be a bigger swing away from Unionism to the Alliance badge of convenience if Unionism cannot get it's house in order. Unionism lost 6% of it's vote to Alliance last time out while the nationalist parties only lost 2%.

McMurphy

Natterjack from Kerry wrote: »

But why ??? You are not answering the question of why there has to be.

I am answering the question of why there needs to be - you just chose to ignore it.

No-one would expect unionists to have to be indoctrinated into the Ireland of today, with the tricolour, Amhrán na bhFiann and AGS being the accepted police force needing to be discussed for example.

Obviously there should not be one way kowtowing to unionists either, Irish people have many customs and traditions that unionists would have to accommodate also.

As for this.

People who have no interest in something, dont discuss what it might be like if it did happen, when they have no interest in such a development whatsoever.

The people who have no interest can choose to not take part in discussions, but when discussions conclude and any if any changes are implemented without them giving their input, little point complaining about it afterwards**.... Remind you in anyone?

**

Does the Republic have to have a discussion about rejoining the United Kingdom ? Do the former states of the DDR have to have a discussion about leaving the FRG and reforming an independent state ? Does Alsace have to have a discussion about rejoining Germany ?

Sorry, you what now?

Are there political parties in Ireland, north or south that are campaigning for the Republic to "rejoin" the UK, and has that suggestion been the subject of an internationally recognised agreement that various governments and players have signed up to?

Is this perhaps wishful thinking on your part?

downcow

banie01 wrote: »

The rise of SF in the polls down south has no doubt played a role in fuelling fears regarding the potential political landscape in the 26 come any border poll.

SF despite their efforts to portray themselves as an "All Ireland" party, the simple fact is that they pursue different policies on both sides of the border and that on the Northern side of the border many of their policies are antagonistic to Unionists.

The simple truth is though, that "parity of esteem" is enshrined in the GFA.
There needs to be appreciation of that across the board North and South.
That means that an Irish Language act in the 6 is imperative but also should any unification take place that a similar accommodation is made for Ulster Scots.

Of far more importance come any reunification but less politically volatile.
Are the NHS, a move towards Slaintecare and universal health care here are needed to smooth the understandable fear on that front.
Schools and education. It would be quite rich of the 26 to dictate integration and reducing religious influence in schools when it is still quite pervasive down south both Catholic and CoI.
Welfare and housing: How does the segregation evident in housing allocation get addressed?
How do we ensure that any and all of the welfare supports endemic in N.I are replaced but affordable?
How do we ensure that as much of both NI and ROI aligns to ensure that economic growth is both accelerated and sustained to allow a degree of self sufficiency?

Or do we take an option akin to federalism and allow a continuation of the current state of self governance but with tighter purse strings?
With a range of financial supports aimed at improving all communities, meaningful integration and enterprise and employment supports?

The integration of ethnic identity other than traveller will also be interesting from the standpoint of employment law.
The scholar in me will be very curious to see the 1st case at the equality tribunal regarding an Ulster Scot Catholic being refused housing in a Catholic housing estate

None of the issues apart from the financial are actually insurmountable IMO.
Time and conciliation can and do soften stances but not overnight.

It’s also worth note that our two cultures/identities are not symmetrical. Language seems to mean a lot to nationalists but is fairly irrelevant to most unionists. I think we would expect to see equitable support given to eg marching bands as to Irish language and gaa