Belfast Disturbances

Imagine equating marching bands with a language and a national sport. What a sad culture you have if marching bands define you.

FrancieBrady

Deleted User wrote: »

Imagine equating marching bands with a language and a national sport. What a sad culture you have if marching bands define you.

In another breath downcow will tell you marching bands are thriving in his culture.

Marching bands are fine and nobody objects to them where they are wanted. What isn't accepted is the right to intimidate or taunt communities that are not your own. Hence the establishment of a parades commission that has solved a lot of the issues.

batman75

FrancieBrady wrote: »

In another breath downcow will tell you marching bands are thriving in his culture.

Marching bands are fine and nobody objects to them where they are wanted. What isn't accepted is the right to intimidate or taunt communities that are not your own. Hence the establishment of a parades commission that has solved a lot of the issues.

This insistence of marching down a road where the locals don't want you has always baffled me. It is nothing more than triumphalist nonsense on the part of the OO.

downcow

batman75 wrote: »

This insistence of marching down a road where the locals don't want you has always baffled me. It is nothing more than triumphalist nonsense on the part of the OO.

Could you tell me how you might define ‘when the locals don’t want you’ for marching in this new Ireland?

Castlekeeper

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Imagine equating marching bands with a language and a national sport. What a sad culture you have if marching bands define you.

Why? Whatever about their origins, they're just currently an outlet for cultural identity. We even (used) have a marching bands festival in Limerick every year (pre covid). Apart from the noise once theirs no bigotry or intimidation attached , I've no issue with them above any other marching, pipe, rock, or ceili band.

As for these disturbances, apart from drug gang issues with customs and PSNI disturbances, it would seem that Brexit is the cause of all this angst. When the economic effects kick in for the UK hopefully NI's privileged trading position will cushion it from the inevitable cutbacks.

https://www.bestforbritain.org/obr_confirms_brexit_will_cause_long_term_damage_to_the_uk_economy?fbclid=IwAR2_654s7UVDeOPni7cTg9qSGBrGigeGC_tQWOcPHo8-YThixpma7ckIglE

batman75

downcow wrote: »

Could you tell me how you might define ‘when the locals don’t want you’ for marching in this new Ireland?

It's more about where than when as you should have seen if you had read my piece correctly. I wouldn't expect a St Patrick's Day parade to be entertained if it wanted to march down the Shankill Road.

FrancieBrady

batman75 wrote: »

This insistence of marching down a road where the locals don't want you has always baffled me. It is nothing more than triumphalist nonsense on the part of the OO.

Everyone needs to listen. There can be no appeasement of triumphalism or bigotry- the bad old day's some are having difficulty in letting go.

Sunny Disposition

downcow wrote: »

I think you are confusing unionists with Protestants
I agree there will be a republican first minister next time but that changes nothing

I’m not.
SF first minister won’t change anything in one sense, but it will show that everything has changed.
The likes of yourself and thousands of bitter unionists who kept us in our knees for so long have had your day, whether partition continues or not.

RandomViewer

OO will have to become inclusive, women, people of different ethnicities and religions and atheists, if they don't they'd be as well just break out the pillowcases with the eye holes we all know they have at home

downcow

batman75 wrote: »

It's more about where than when as you should have seen if you had read my piece correctly. I wouldn't expect a St Patrick's Day parade to be entertained if it wanted to march down the Shankill Road.

You are avoiding the question. I am interested.
The question was
Could you tell me how you might define ‘when the locals don’t want you’ for marching in this new Ireland?

downcow

RandomViewer wrote: »

OO will have to become inclusive, women, people of different ethnicities and religions and atheists, if they don't they'd be as well just break out the pillowcases with the eye holes we all know they have at home

I am not in the orange, but there are orange women and of course people of ethnicity, but it is a Protestant regions order so I guess it will always be Protestant same as the catholic orders are catholic and of course that is on the wrong side of history. It will continue to decrease in numbers but the loyalist bands are flourishing and increasing and young people want to be part of them. So the culture will evolve, as any culture should

downcow

downcow wrote: »

You are avoiding the question. I am interested.
The question was
Could you tell me how you might define ‘when the locals don’t want you’ for marching in this new Ireland?

batman75 wrote: »

This insistence of marching down a road where the locals don't want you has always baffled me. It is nothing more than triumphalist nonsense on the part of the OO.

 

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

I am not in the orange, but there are orange women and of course people of ethnicity, but it is a Protestant regions order so I guess it will always be Protestant same as the catholic orders are catholic and of course that is on the wrong side of history. It will continue to decrease in numbers but the loyalist bands are flourishing and increasing and young people want to be part of them. So the culture will evolve, as any culture should

So what is the problem? If Loyalist bands spring up in the south they are free to march and play where they want.

RandomViewer

In a United Ireland people of Polish descent will outnumber Loyalists, recognition of their culture will be as important as Mervyn and Beryl

banie01

Castlekeeper wrote: »

Why? Whatever about their origins, they're just currently an outlet for cultural identity. We even (used) have a marching bands festival in Limerick every year (pre covid). Apart from the noise once theirs no bigotry or intimidation attached , I've no issue with them above any other marching, pipe, rock, or ceili band.

As for these disturbances, apart from drug gang issues with customs and PSNI disturbances, it would seem that Brexit is the cause of all this angst. When the economic effects kick in for the UK hopefully NI's privileged trading position will cushion it from the inevitable cutbacks.

https://www.bestforbritain.org/obr_confirms_brexit_will_cause_long_term_damage_to_the_uk_economy?fbclid=IwAR2_654s7UVDeOPni7cTg9qSGBrGigeGC_tQWOcPHo8-YThixpma7ckIglE

I'd agree with castlekeeper on this.(and an earlier post by Downcow to an extent)
The marching bands are a social and community identity for a portion of the PUL community.
That can't really be swerved.

What needs to be done IMO is finding a way to integrate that tradition in a far less confrontational manner.
Make the marches and the drum competitions an exchange of culture, a celebration of affinity rather than the triumphalism it all too often descends to.

The Limerick Marching bands competition is a great example, it's usually the week of the St Patrick's parade, garners a lot of international entries as bands over for the Dublin and even Belfast parades travel down to compete, it's far more fun than the Paddy's Day parade and pulls big crowds.

We have a few tasty pipe and drum bands in Limerick that could even give the best of the Northern bands a run for the money.

The basis of any UI has to be amity, shared culture and cultural exchange and tolerance.
Of course flag burning and triumphalism on either side has no part in that other than to be called out for fostering hatred.
It's a marathon, not a sprint and if there is ever a border poll that puts forward a preference for a UI?

I'd hope that the strategies of building those links are well laid out and understood by all before any vote takes place!

I'd hate to think people wouldn't know what they voted for

FrancieBrady

banie01 wrote: »

I'd agree with castlekeeper on this.(and an earlier post by Downcow to an extent)
The marching bands are a social and community identity for a portion of the PUL community.
That can't really be swerved.

What needs to be done IMO is finding a way to integrate that tradition in a far less confrontational manner.
Make the marches and the drum competitions an exchange of culture, a celebration of affinity rather than the triumphalism it all too often descends to.

The Limerick Marching bands competition is a great example, it's usually the week of the St Patrick's parade, garners a lot of international entries as bands over for the Dublin and even Belfast parades travel down to compete, it's far more fun than the Paddy's Day parade and pulls big crowds.

We have a few tasty pipe and drum bands in Limerick that could even give the best of the Northern bands a run for the money.

The basis of any UI has to be amity, shared culture and cultural exchange and tolerance.
Of course flag burning and triumphalism on either side has no part in that other than to be called out for fostering hatred.
It's a marathon, not a sprint and if there is ever a border poll that puts forward a preference for a UI?

I'd hope that the strategies of building those links are well laid out and understood by all before any vote takes place!

I'd hate to think people wouldn't know what they voted for

Why put a demand for 'integration'?

If Loyalists bands wish to march, let them. If people wish to engage with that, let them.

Nobody 'demands' that I integrate with hurling, why would there be similar for aspects of anyone's culture.

Don't offend, don't triumphalise, respect others and we can all get on with our own lives.

Tyrone212

400 years later not much has changed.

UVF orders removal of Catholic families from Carrickfergus housing estate in '21st century form of ethnic cleansing'

The UVF has ordered the removal of Catholic families from a housing estate in Carrickfergus in what has been termed a "form of 21st century ethnic cleansing".

The terror gang was behind attacks on three homes in the Woodburn estate in which they believed Catholics have been staying. Sources say the attacks were based purely on rumours about the occupants or people linked to them.

Windows at properties on Cherry Walk and Glenfield Walk were smashed late last Wednesday night. The home of a pensioner on Pinewood Avenue, who only moved into the bungalow last month, was also targeted. Some of the occupants are understood to have since fled the area.

https://m.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/sunday-life/news/uvf-orders-removal-of-catholic-families-from-carrickfergus-housing-estate-in-21st-century-form-of-ethnic-cleansing-40297946.html

cameramonkey

smokie72 wrote: »

Theres no guarantee. If the Scots decide to go Indy then the union is finished. And if growing nationalism in England is believed then who's to say there wouldn't be a referendum there on the union in the future. Especially if the Scots secede. In the 2011 UK census 75% of people in England identified themselves as English not British. It be interesting to see what it is in 2021.

And to balance that argument there's a lot down here who aren't in favour of a UI either. I think any talk of a border poll is premature. I personally don't want to see one for another 20 years and then only if there is discussion about the benefits and disadvantages of a shared island. I don't want the mistakes of the Brexit referendum revisited. Unionists have to argue and put the point across as to why staying in the Union is better for all.

There are some great things about been in the UK like the NHS for example but if Boris and Co. want to privatise it then what happens? Does London want to subsidise the North forever? The payroll and pensions of the civil/public service in the North is huge.

Free health care on demand is an illusion in the UK.

maebee

downcow wrote: »

Language seems to mean a lot to nationalists but is fairly irrelevant to most unionists.

It would be very relevant to most Unionists if a foreign country invaded their territory and tried to quash their native language. I'm sure the Unionists would go to every possible length to keep/promote their native language, English.

cameramonkey

downcow wrote: »

I am not in the orange, but there are orange women and of course people of ethnicity, but it is a Protestant regions order so I guess it will always be Protestant same as the catholic orders are catholic and of course that is on the wrong side of history. It will continue to decrease in numbers but the loyalist bands are flourishing and increasing and young people want to be part of them. So the culture will evolve, as any culture should

If you marry a catholic are you allowed to be in the OO?

cameramonkey

downcow wrote: »

I think you are confusing unionists with Protestants
I agree there will be a republican first minister next time but that changes nothing

I think it will change a lot. I cannot see the DUP agreeing to supporting a SF first minister just like Arlene will take flight if the place goes green.

downcow

RandomViewer wrote: »

In a United Ireland people of Polish descent will outnumber Loyalists, recognition of their culture will be as important as Mervyn and Beryl

I agree completely. This is exactly what Arlene said ie there are more polish speakers in ni than Irish speakers do a polish language act is more required than an Irish one

downcow

cameramonkey wrote: »

If you marry a catholic are you allowed to be in the OO?

Yes. I have a friend who is married to a catholic and past champion Irish dancer and he is a keen Orangeman

But I am not defending all the rules of the orange. Just answering your question factually

banie01

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Why put a demand for 'integration'?

If Loyalists bands wish to march, let them. If people wish to engage with that, let them.

Nobody 'demands' that I integrate with hurling, why would there be similar for aspects of anyone's culture.

Don't offend, don't triumphalise, respect others and we can all get on with our own lives.

Where did I "demand" it?
I don't, but by the same extension allowing social isolation and/or exclusion on the basis of religion or politics isn't a path to nation building.

As for the latter part of your post.
I said the same thing in my post that you quoted.

UDAWINNER

Tyrone212 wrote: »

400 years later not much has changed.

UVF orders removal of Catholic families from Carrickfergus housing estate in '21st century form of ethnic cleansing'

The UVF has ordered the removal of Catholic families from a housing estate in Carrickfergus in what has been termed a "form of 21st century ethnic cleansing".

The terror gang was behind attacks on three homes in the Woodburn estate in which they believed Catholics have been staying. Sources say the attacks were based purely on rumours about the occupants or people linked to them.

Windows at properties on Cherry Walk and Glenfield Walk were smashed late last Wednesday night. The home of a pensioner on Pinewood Avenue, who only moved into the bungalow last month, was also targeted. Some of the occupants are understood to have since fled the area.

https://m.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/sunday-life/news/uvf-orders-removal-of-catholic-families-from-carrickfergus-housing-estate-in-21st-century-form-of-ethnic-cleansing-40297946.html

Yet people on here will defend Unionist scum and blame everything on SF. I await Arlene's condemnation of this attack by her UVF/UDA cronies

downcow

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Imagine equating marching bands with a language and a national sport. What a sad culture you have if marching bands define you.

Haha. Imagine have a culture that’s different from mine lol
The old Irish Republican arrogance. Do the morris dancers in Cornwall and the pipers in Scotland piss you off.

FrancieBrady

banie01 wrote: »

Where did I "demand" it?
I don't, but by the same extension allowing social isolation and/or exclusion on the basis of religion or politics isn't a path to nation building.

As for the latter part of your post.
I said the same thing in my post that you quoted.

Wht do you mean by 'allowing social isolation'?

BluePlanet

downcow wrote: »

Haha. Imagine have a culture that’s different from mine lol
The old Irish Republican arrogance. Do the morris dancers in Cornwall and the pipers in Scotland piss you off.

But it's not a culture.
Your marching bands thing is just coat-trailing exercise in sectarian triumphalism with a heavy dose of intimidation.

lurleen lumpkin

downcow wrote: »

Haha. Imagine have a culture that’s different from mine lol

Tell us a bit about your culture.

banie01

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Wht do you mean by 'allowing social isolation'?

That in a UI if we were to allow the current practices of communities on both sides in NI to continue the practices of exclusion, of isolation and of defining themselves against the other to continue.
That we will be making the hard task of nation building, even harder.

There are communities and enclaves within NI where being of the opposite side can quickly mean that you are targeted.
Communities see themselves as set apart and even self policing.
That needs to be addressed, it won't be down by decree or force.
It needs buy in and it needs trust.