Belfast Disturbances

Choochtown

The GFA has not been breached by the new customs regulations despite what Unionists may claim.
NI is still part of the UK and still elects members to their Parliament. The only way to change the new regulations is democratically through the proper channels ie. in the British parliament.

briany

Let's look at this article entitled "Taoiseach warns EU that hard border would threaten return to violence"

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/taoiseach-warns-eu-that-hard-border-would-threaten-return-to-violence-1.3668341

Now, firstly, in my view, a threat tends to come from the person who is capable of following through on it, and as far as I know, Leo Varadkar is not, and never has been, a commanding figure for Irish Republican paramilitaries, so he's not really capable of threatening violence at the border. Violence over a hard border probably would have happened whether Varadkar had warned of it or not, so it was a responsible thing to remind people that this would be a potential negative consequence of Brexit and one which Varadkar wished to avoid, and because of its seriousness, there's not much use in pussyfooting around it.

Junkyard Tom

When John 'U' Bruton is telling Nigel 'Negotiator-of-the-Year' Dodds that a border in Ireland is unworkable then you know just how isolated the DUP is on this issue.

Hamsterchops

Are the disturbances/rioting still ongoing, or have they subsided tonight?

FrancieBrady

Hamsterchops wrote: »

Are the disturbances/rioting still ongoing, or have they subsided tonight?

They have called off the riots as a mark of respect to the woman who signed what they are rioting about into law.

Atlantic Dawn

Hamsterchops wrote: »

Are the disturbances/rioting still ongoing, or have they subsided tonight?

Car set on fire on train line seems to be worst of it...
https://twitter.com/Dean_Journalist/status/1381713616769007617

Hamsterchops

FrancieBrady wrote: »

They have called off the riots as a mark of respect to the woman who signed what they are rioting about into law.

Too late for me to decipher that

I presume you're having a go at Arlene Foster?

FrancieBrady

Hamsterchops wrote: »

Too late for me to decipher that

I presume you're having a go at Arlene Foster?

/They have called off the organised riots as a mark of respect to the queen HC

https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/loyalist-umbrella-group-lcc-breaks-silence-to-call-for-an-end-to-unrest-40293803.html

cameramonkey

Hamsterchops wrote: »

Too late for me to decipher that

I presume you're having a go at Arlene Foster?

z queen me thinks.

Frank Bullitt

downcow wrote: »

Well unfortunately it is just more evidence the the threat of violence works.
Roi bigged up the violence should there be a border in Ireland, and it worked 100%
Now loyalists are bigging up the chances of ni violent conflict restarting and everyone is changing the ‘suck it up’ language are engaging in violence.

I am glad it’s on the agenda but it’s more bad training for both communities

Fixed it for you there.

Frank Bullitt

James O'Brien absolutely nails it with this.

Akrasia

Five Eighth wrote: »

Has anyone anywhere in any context ever come across this situation:

Two negotiating parties reach agreement.
The group represented by one of the negotiating parties dislikes (some or all) of the agreement.
While they are upset with their own negotiating team, their venom is directed primarily at the other negotiating team.

How is this position defendable?

Its defensible only if they believe that the other side coerced them into accepting unfavorable terms
There is a lot of cognitive dissonance going on here. Brexiteers constantly said that Britain were in a very strong position to negotiate with the EU
‘We hold all the cards’ ‘they need us more than we need them’ etc
Consequently they played hard ball with the EU, came away with a terrible deal for both sides and are blaming the EU for not recognizing the excellent British hand

In the mind of the hardcore brexiteer, they had a royal flush, this is what the politicians and media told them. The negotiators went all in, the EU called their bluff, turns out they had a pair of 2s, now they’re mad at the EU for not acting like they had that royal flush and folding like they should have.

For non brexiteers, it wasn’t a game of poker, the cards were never a secret, everyone could see that the UK were going to be hit very badly from a hard Brexit and it would have all of these negative consequences, but the Tories just kept on playing brinkmanship and chicken with the EU hoping to catch us off guard as one of their many cliff edges approached, threatening that they would walk away with No deal, holding themselves ransom in the worst negotiating strategy in modern history

downcow

briany wrote: »

Let's look at this article entitled "Taoiseach warns EU that hard border would threaten return to violence"

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/taoiseach-warns-eu-that-hard-border-would-threaten-return-to-violence-1.3668341

Now, firstly, in my view, a threat tends to come from the person who is capable of following through on it, and as far as I know, Leo Varadkar is not, and never has been, a commanding figure for Irish Republican paramilitaries, so he's not really capable of threatening violence at the border. Violence over a hard border probably would have happened whether Varadkar had warned of it or not, so it was a responsible thing to remind people that this would be a potential negative consequence of Brexit and one which Varadkar wished to avoid, and because of its seriousness, there's not much use in pussyfooting around it.

He used the threat of violence. He didn’t threaten to be violent himself.

It’s a strange old world. It seems the loyalist violence is working.
Pundits here this morning are saying all parties are now focused with urgency on massively reducing the Irish Sea checks.

It’s unfortunate that violence is seen again to work and achieves stuff politicians can’t.

Junkyard Tom

downcow wrote: »

all parties are now focused with urgency on massively reducing the Irish Sea checks.

They always were. With a little bit of sanity from the British government the port checks can be nibbled away at until they barely exist.

The British Gov that has pursued a Brexit with such neurotic zealotry that it has left Britain with fewer agreements on plants/animals than New Zealand on the other side of the planet.

Seth Brundle

downcow wrote: »

He used the threat of violence. He didn’t threaten to be violent himself.

Was he wrong for making the point that an unwelcome border on this island would become a focus for violence?

downcow wrote: »

It’s a strange old world. It seems the loyalist violence is working.
Pundits here this morning are saying all parties are now focused with urgency on massively reducing the Irish Sea checks.

This will not remove the obligations that exist between two different customs areas. That circle cannot be squared.
Maybe inbthe UK government carry out their existing obligations then things will improve.

downcow wrote: »

It’s unfortunate that violence is seen again to work and achieves stuff politicians can’t.

There has been no violence in the republic as a result of Brexit. This is what our politicians campaigned for.
There has been violence in NI which was encouraged by the words and actions of the DUP. Maybe you should ask your DUP representatives why this is so.

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

He used the threat of violence. He didn’t threaten to be violent himself.

It’s a strange old world. It seems the loyalist violence is working.
Pundits here this morning are saying all parties are now focused with urgency on massively reducing the Irish Sea checks.

It’s unfortunate that violence is seen again to work and achieves stuff politicians can’t.

They were sitting down talking about the flexibilities (or rather the EU were pointing them out in the protocol) before the violence kicked off.

I think we are about to see another bout of 'Never Never Never ..oh well, maybe then' as the border in the Irish Sea beds in.

briany

Seth Brundle wrote: »

Was he wrong for making the point that an unwelcome border on this island would become a focus for violence?

I don't think he was wrong, no. He pointed out that border infrastructure had been targeted by dissidents before and so could be again. At the time, he wasn't proposing that a border go up in the Irish sea instead of that but simply that Brexit cannot be allowed to install a border on the island of Ireland. I think at that point we were hoping that the British government would sign off on a CU arrangement, at the least.

Someone had to step up and remind people of the potential negative consequences of Brexit for this island, because that conversation certainly wasn't happening over in Britain where the Brexit side would have been happy enough to brush aside all concerns about the stability of NI with, "Pffft, Project Fear, mate!"

Dubh Geannain

@Downcow - Varadkar just repeated what the DUP said. So who started the return to violence rhetoric? Not Varadkar.

PS: I don't like him but am a fan of the truth.

Dubh Geannain

briany wrote: »

Someone had to step up and remind people of the potential negative consequences of Brexit for this island, because that conversation certainly wasn't happening over in Britain where the Brexit side would have been happy enough to brush aside all concerns about the stability of NI with, "Pffft, Project Fear, mate!"

Oh we can thank the DUP for that. Only they did it in a more triumphalist way at you'd expect. While mocking SF as being sidelined in the negotiations and only having their terrorist friends to turn to.

Leo brought it back up later and in a more candid way. Didn't fit with downcow's narratives though of blaming the Irish Government.

Enter the rIgHt HoNouRAble Sammy Wilson:
https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/general-election-2017/dup-claims-anti-brexit-stance-will-help-to-encourage-dissident-violence-35719183.html

RobMc59

downcow wrote: »

Well unfortunately it is just more evidence the the threat of violence works.
Roi bigged up the violence should there be a border in Ireland, and it worked 100%
Now loyalists are bigging up the chances of ni violent conflict restarting and everyone is changing the ‘suck it up’ language.

I am glad it’s on the agenda but it’s more bad training for both communities

I agree with your views on this regarding threats of violence apparently working.
The link I posted is significant as it appears to say the EU are willing to compromise (which we were assured wouldn't happen)this is from the RTE news feed by Tony Connelly who is apparently highly regarded in Irish circles.

FrancieBrady

RobMc59 wrote: »

I agree with your views on this regarding threats of violence apparently working.
The link I posted is significant as it appears to say the EU are willing to compromise (which we were assured wouldn't happen)this is from the RTE news feed by Tony Connelly who is apparently highly regarded in Irish circles.

It's plain you need the win of the EU 'compromising'. If that settles you down to deal with the new reality of a border in the Irish Sea, have at it.
The EU is folding the tent, Rule Britannia, fog in the channel, Europe is cut off from the mainland etc etc.

Christy42

downcow wrote: »

He used the threat of violence. He didn’t threaten to be violent himself.

It’s a strange old world. It seems the loyalist violence is working.
Pundits here this morning are saying all parties are now focused with urgency on massively reducing the Irish Sea checks.

It’s unfortunate that violence is seen again to work and achieves stuff politicians can’t.

The Irish Government was in favour of no border (no Brexit). The DUP campaigned heavily for a border to exist (everyone knew it was a guarantee of Brexit and that a land border is unworkable from a practical point of view). They are now annoyed that a border happened. The way I see it they may sort it out in a way that doesn't infringe on their governments previous treaties. Conservatives assured everyone they had the technology to make a frictionless border. Just do that over the Irish Sea since they were so confident of it.

RobMc59

FrancieBrady wrote: »

It's plain you need the win of the EU 'compromising'. If that settles you down to deal with the new reality of a border in the Irish Sea, have at it.
The EU is folding the tent, Rule Britannia, fog in the channel, Europe is cut off from the mainland etc etc.

I just want things to calm down.Compromise and common sense is preferable for everyone. I'm not happy with what Johnson has 'negotiated'but if problems with the protocol can be solved amicably that's better for all of us imo.
The UK has to abide by what it rightly or wrongly signed up to.If the EU is willing to compromise to ease this along,all the better.

FrancieBrady

RobMc59 wrote: »

I just want things to calm down.Compromise and common sense is preferable for everyone. I'm not happy with what Johnson has 'negotiated'but if problems with the protocol can be solved amicably that's better for all of us imo.
The UK has to abide by what it rightly or wrongly signed up to.If the EU is willing to compromise to ease this along,all the better.

The UK and Unionists have been told again and again that flexibilities exist in the Protocol and were there to be used. The UK hadn't, and now they are.
Direct your pleas to the belligerent Unionists and stop trying to pretend that the EU has lost here. They haven't and no amount of flag waving bombast will make it so.

RandomViewer

DUP wanted a hard border with heavy military presence, peace has done them no favours so they jumped at the thought of escalating violence to give them purpose

Hamsterchops

downcow wrote: »

Well unfortunately it is just more evidence the the threat of violence works.
Roi bigged up the violence should there be a border in Ireland, and it worked 100%
Now loyalists are bigging up the chances of ni violent conflict restarting and everyone is changing the ‘suck it up’ language.

I am glad it’s on the agenda but it’s more bad training for both communities

Very true, now that you say it I remember Leo, Coveney & Co stating that there would be s return to violence if there was any hint at border checks on the Irish land border, this point was heavily emphasised to the point where Donald Tusk & Co completely forgot about the consequences of creating a new trade border between NI & GB.

And now we have chaos, until the Protocol is either scrapped or heavily overhauled so that it doesn't threaten the internal UK market. All the talk of "The island economy" didn't help either, highly emphasised when in reality NI's biggest market by far is GB, and not the Republic, there again the EU took it hook line and sinker as Gospel, so the internal island of Ireland trade was not disrupted, while at the same time heavy handed checks would commence between NI & the test of the UK.

Madness (thanks to Boris).

Dubh Geannain

Hamsterchops wrote: »

Very true, now that you say it I remember Leo, Coveney & Co stating that there would be s return to violence if there was any hint at border checks on the Irish land border, this point was heavily emphasised to the point where Donald Tusk & Co completely forgot about the consequences of creating a new trade border between NI & GB.

And now we have chaos, until the Protocol is either scrapped or heavily overhauled so that it doesn't threaten the internal UK market. All the talk of "The island economy" didn't help either, highly emphasised when in reality NI's biggest market by far is GB, and not the Republic, there again the EU took it hook line and sinker as Gospel, so the internal island of Ireland trade was not disrupted, while at the same time heavy handed checks would commence between NI & the test of the UK.

Madness (thanks to Boris).

Coveney and Co. were only repeating what the DUP had said mind. The road always leads back to the same actors who wanted to use Brexit as a means of increasing the checks between North and South.

Boris received the pass from the DUP who tackled May when she was through on goal. So the thanks is shared.

Seth Brundle

Hamsterchops wrote: »

this point was heavily emphasised to the point where Donald Tusk & Co completely forgot about the consequences of creating a new trade border between NI & GB.

This implies that the Border was down to Donald Tusk.
Firstly, Donald Tusk's position as President of the EC had finished in Nov 2019 - over a year before PM Johnson signed the NIP to much fanfare. Did Tusk come back and force the UK to agree to the NIP?

The border, wherever it was to go was down to the UK and their decision to leave the single market and customs union. Nobody forced them to leave. They were warned that a border would be required and presented absolutely no viable options except a border down the Irish Sea. It was not down to the EU to decide what kind of Brexit the people of the UK voted for nor was it down to the EU to decide on how the UK was going to lay out it's Brexit position against the only part of the EU it had a physical border with. This is the UK's fault, not Donald Tusk's.

Hamsterchops wrote: »

Madness (thanks to Boris).

he was given a massive helping hand by the DUP who initially campaigned for Brexit (with dodgy money) in London of all places and then blocked May's plans which ultimately led to the decision to use the Irish Sea to locate the trade border.

trixi001

There is free trade into the EU and into GB from the North - and despite a few initial difficulties of trade between GB & NI, this is actually an excellent situation for the North..

There is also very minimal restrictions (I think the main restrictions relate to livestock, soil etc) on trade between GB & the North despite what some would have you believe..the problems are to do with paperwork, not the trade per se..from a business point of view the difficulties I have experienced have been very simple - need to get a XI EORI number (1 simple form to fill in and 24 hours later had it and was able to send it to the GB company and get my delivery sent)

Many companies that stopped deliveries to NI have now restarted (John Lewis for example). The main barrier to trade was how last minute the protocol was, and businesses had no chance to prepare, so just stopped deliveries as NI is a small market for them, but as time passes, more & more companies are delivering again..

I have experienced difficulties getting deliveries to NI in the past anyway - very hard to get anything with a lithium battery delivered to here etc, some companies charge extra

I have not really noticed many shortages in shops, but then again i use my local butcher and small shops mostly, i did notice that sainsburys are stocking Spar branded products now though for meats etc, but this is actually a good thing, NI meat as opposed to English. so supporting local farmers, and lowering the carbon footprint.

We need to look at the opportunities this presents..

king_gizzard

This guy gets it