Belfast Disturbances

briany

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Don't forget either that a more economically healthy NI aligned with Dublin makes a UI more likely to be voted for and attractive.

Unionists know this and are scared of it, read Jamie Bryson's tweets to see that fear become manifest.

https://twitter.com/JamieBrysonCPNI/status/1381606335003889666

Mr. Bryson's alternative to the NI protocol is to shift the border onto the island of Ireland, if necessary. Not that I'd have expected him to say any different, mind. Problem is that it would solve nothing in terms of keeping NI stable. Just shifts the anger onto the other side. Bryson would be loving it, though.

FrancieBrady

briany wrote: »

https://twitter.com/JamieBrysonCPNI/status/1381606335003889666

Mr. Bryson's alternative to the NI protocol is to shift the border onto the island of Ireland, if necessary. Not that I'd have expected him to say any different, mind. Problem is that it would solve nothing in terms of keeping NI stable. Just shifts the anger onto the other side. Bryson would be loving it, though.

They need a physical division...always did.

jimmycrackcorm

downcow wrote: »

In contravention of the gfa

Brexit itself is in contravention of the GFA, it is what has caused this present situation. But it's what unionists supported and voted for, so technically they can't really argue against it.

Christy42

briany wrote: »

https://twitter.com/JamieBrysonCPNI/status/1381606335003889666

Mr. Bryson's alternative to the NI protocol is to shift the border onto the island of Ireland, if necessary. Not that I'd have expected him to say any different, mind. Problem is that it would solve nothing in terms of keeping NI stable. Just shifts the anger onto the other side. Bryson would be loving it, though.

It also doesn't work. The sea border is easy. It is a natural border. The NI/Republic border is a mess going through property, down the middle of roads, houses etc. etc.
They pumped resources into that border and failed utterly. They and the EU physically don't have the capability even if they had the will.

From a practical point of view the sea border is the only option as was repeatedly stated 5 years ago.

trixi001

Damien360 wrote: »

Don't think that's the issue. The DUP want the situation to be the same as before and therefore be a fully paid up member of GB. The very fact that the Scots for example don't have paperwork erks them. Plenty of NI business trades with the EU and they are in an unenviable situation of lying squarely between the EU and GB with the ability to trade easily (albeit not as easily) with both jurisdictions without penalty.

The argument is more about optics of being fully in GB like all the rest and they seem unwilling to realise the potential for trade, all to wave a flag. This at the very expense of jobs in NI.

Exactly, its all about optics and nothing to do with the reality of the situation

I would say the protocol is affecting very few people in real life .

Its a very short sighted approach by unionists - the protocol and the unique position of NI with access to both markets, mean it should be an ideal place for foreign investment etc, and should massively improve NI's failing economy..which in turn means the "neutrals" in the North won't want to give up this position, which should mean NI stays connected to the UK for the forseeable future..

If the unionists get what some of them seem to want - a hard border on the island of Ireland - it puts the North on path towards a UI, as the neutrals don't want this, as it would be a barrier to everyday life for anyone crossing it..as it was pre the EU and ultimately the majority of people care more about how things affect them then they do about if we are part of the UK or not..

Its the neutrals that will decide the position of NI in the long term..neither unionists or nationalists have a majority on their own..

jimmycrackcorm

Christy42 wrote: »

It also doesn't work. The sea border is easy. It is a natural border. The NI/Republic border is a mess going through property, down the middle of roads, houses etc. etc.
They pumped resources into that border and failed utterly. They and the EU physically don't have the capability even if they had the will.

From a practical point of view the sea border is the only option as was repeatedly stated 5 years ago.

Clearly, Bryson doesn't understand that the border doesn't actually belong inland as the internationally recognized GFA removed it, and the internationally agreed withdrawal agreement placed it in the sea.

steddyeddy

king_gizzard wrote: »

This guy gets it

I have routinely heard the exact same thing while working in England.

FrancieBrady

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

Clearly, Bryson doesn't understand that the border doesn't actually belong inland as the internationally recognized GFA removed it, and the internationally agreed withdrawal agreement placed it in the sea.

It's a mark of how out of whack, misguided and isolated these few are that they have called off rioting as a mark of respect to the queen, who signed all of this into law.

batman75

steddyeddy wrote: »

I have routinely heard the exact same thing while working in England.

Deep down any loyalist with a half a brain knows this. They know Johnson would cut them loose if he could. They are desperately clinging onto to their Britishness knowing a UI is on its way in the next 30 years. The minute Scotland was offered an independence referendum the clock has been ticking on the entity known as Northern Ireland. When Brexit was voted on people in England didn't give a toss about the implications for NI.
Any reasonable pleasant, if they are out there, loyalist will be made welcome in a UI if they wish to stay. Thousands of British people live here in the Republic enjoy it and are rightly treated with respect.
The mix of British and Irish culture makes Belfast a fascinating city to visit and I would hope that in a UI we would be tolerant enough to let people express their identity so long as it done in a respectful way. As an area populated by the traditional majority in the North I was shocked by how poverty stricken the Shankill is. I walked the Shankill Road end to end and christ it is grim. The Falls is a much more pleasant area in West Belfast.

The thread could do with some more level-headed unionists. The man is a terrible representative.

batman75

batman75 wrote: »

Deep down any loyalist with a half a brain knows this. They know Johnson would cut them loose if he could. They are desperately clinging onto to their Britishness knowing a UI is on its way in the next 30 years. The minute Scotland was offered an independence referendum the clock has been ticking on the entity known as Northern Ireland. When Brexit was voted on people in England didn't give a toss about the implications for NI.
Any reasonable pleasant, if they are out there, loyalist will be made welcome in a UI if they wish to stay. Thousands of British people live here in the Republic enjoy it and are rightly treated with respect.
The mix of British and Irish culture makes Belfast a fascinating city to visit and I would hope that in a UI we would be tolerant enough to let people express their identity so long as it done in a respectful way. As an area populated by the traditional majority in the North I was shocked by how poverty stricken the Shankill is. I walked the Shankill Road end to end and christ it is grim. The Falls is a much more pleasant area in West Belfast.

Language is fascinating, I have no time for unionists but really they would be welcome in our country it is their country as well, or more correctly it belongs to everyone who lives here.

Frank Bullitt

king_gizzard wrote: »

This guy gets it

But downcow knows that these kinds of people really actually want them and see them as British...how can this be??? :eek:

This is EXACTLY what I have heard from the English people I worked with back in Ireland, they only see them as Irish or Northern Irish. As this pace, their identity will be null and void, no one will want them.

lurleen lumpkin

Get to work Eddie

https://twitter.com/BBCNewsNI/status/1382003185498341387?s=19

hometruths

lurleen lumpkin wrote: »

Get to work Eddie

https://twitter.com/BBCNewsNI/status/1382003185498341387?s=19

"Tells his Stormont counterpart"??!! Doesn't sound like a relationship of equals to be honest :D:D

In a letter to Mr Poots, sent earlier this month, Agriculture Secretary George Eustice said: "Your responsibilities include providing the necessary facilities for the conduct of checks."

The letter said Mr Poots must also provide "sufficient appropriately qualified personnel for these purposes".

"I look to you to progress these without delay," it added.

Mr Eustice also reminded Mr Poots that while overarching responsibility for international relations rests with the government in Westminster, delivering the practical requirements "falls to you and your department".

RobMc59

Highly regarded in Ireland,Tony Connelly is reporting protocol technicalities are set to be discussed.It looks like there will be compromise to break the apparent impasse.

https://twitter.com/tconnellyRTE/status/1381982165328670724?s=20

Fionn1952

RobMc59 wrote: »

Highly regarded in Ireland,Tony Connelly is reporting protocol technicalities are set to be discussed.It looks like there will be compromise to break the apparent impasse.

https://twitter.com/tconnellyRTE/status/1381982165328670724?s=20

Technicalities being discussed isn't the same as the, 'the EU are going to give us extra cake any day now' you always seem to pop in to boast about.....but you always seem to disappear when it doesn't materialise as you've predicted.

Going by the quote directed to Edwin Poots in the post before yours, it doesn't seem very likely that there will be any grand changes; likely the flexibilities already contained within the NI Protocol will be highlighted again, though I don't discount the possibility that upon implementation, they will be portrayed as new concessions in your media. If that's the fig leaf you need, so be it.

RobMc59

Fionn1952 wrote: »

Technicalities being discussed isn't the same as the, 'the EU are going to give us extra cake any day now' you always seem to pop in to boast about.....but you always seem to disappear when it doesn't materialise as you've predicted.

Going by the quote directed to Edwin Poots in the post before yours, it doesn't seem very likely that there will be any grand changes; likely the flexibilities already contained within the NI Protocol will be highlighted again, though I don't discount the possibility that upon implementation, they will be portrayed as new concessions in your media. If that's the fig leaf you need, so be it.

It depends how you interpret Connelly`s tweet.It also depends on whether you consider some of the protocol conditions somewhat `over the top`.
Is`nt the prospect of disagreements being ironed out better for all concerned?Continued discord and the protocol possibly collapsing should`nt suit anyone who has NI`s interests at heart imo.

FrancieBrady

RobMc59 wrote: »

It depends how you interpret Connelly`s tweet.It also depends on whether you consider some of the protocol conditions somewhat `over the top`.
Is`nt the prospect of disagreements being ironed out better for all concerned?Continued discord and the protocol possibly collapsing should`nt suit anyone who has NI`s interests at heart imo.

How could it be ironed out if Unionist leaders are in Never Never mode over it?

Would it not be better for them to climb down from that position and support their government who are copperfastening the protocol and using the flexibilities contained in it?

Feisar

I was watching a vid on youtube link below has no one heard of a catapult for the lad at the start? I thought these lads were pros at rioting.

Plus if you've a high wall a bow and arrow is pretty good for lobbing a bit of harm, even a field expedient one. Like night after night yer shouting at a wall, did no one think of something effective to launch over the wall?

FrancieBrady

Sefcovic has released a statement saying he has invited Frost for dinner and that he believes that the UK was engaging in NI Protocol talks "in good faith".

Not hard to read between the lines there based on the history of the negotiations.

Fionn1952

RobMc59 wrote: »

It depends how you interpret Connelly`s tweet.It also depends on whether you consider some of the protocol conditions somewhat `over the top`.
Is`nt the prospect of disagreements being ironed out better for all concerned?Continued discord and the protocol possibly collapsing should`nt suit anyone who has NI`s interests at heart imo.

Tony Connolly's tweet suggests nothing that could be interpreted in that way except through the most rule-britannia-tinted glasses looking for more cake. He has said there are signs that the two will have a phone call, only a big dose of wishful thinking could interpreted that as meaning the EU have agreed to do anything for the UK. As I already mentioned, my own suspicion is that Mr Sefcovic will speak with Mr Frost and point to the mechanisms already agreed and flexibilities already built into the NI Protocol and repeat that until the UK respects the deal it agreed to a few weeks ago and actually implements it, there's no road left to travel.

Whether you or I think the protocol conditions are over the top (for the record, I don't) is irrelevant; the fact of the matter is those are the conditions the UK agreed to, and so it is for your government to work out how best to live up to their obligations. I think APR on payday loans is over the top, so I don't sign an agreement to take the cash from one. Not much use in me moaning about it afterwards if I did; the time to take your principled stand is beforehand.


The prospect of disagreements being ironed out is certainly a positive when viewed in a vacuum, however given the UK's recent tendency to be offered an inch, end up with two and complain that they didn't get a mile, I would not be willing to undermine the EU's integrity or future bargaining position with other third parties to keep a handful of easily led, misguided children and the drug dealers encouraging them on from the sidelines back home in the North quietened down.

FrancieBrady

Fionn1952 wrote: »

Tony Connolly's tweet suggests nothing that could be interpreted in that way except through the most rule-britannia-tinted glasses looking for more cake. He has said there are signs that the two will have a phone call, only a big dose of wishful thinking could interpreted that as meaning the EU have agreed to do anything for the UK. As I already mentioned, my own suspicion is that Mr Sefcovic will speak with Mr Frost and point to the mechanisms already agreed and flexibilities already built into the NI Protocol and repeat that until the UK respects the deal it agreed to a few weeks ago and actually implements it, there's no road left to travel.

Whether you or I think the protocol conditions are over the top (for the record, I don't) is irrelevant; the fact of the matter is those are the conditions the UK agreed to, and so it is for your government to work out how best to live up to their obligations. I think APR on payday loans is over the top, so I don't sign an agreement to take the cash from one. Not much use in me moaning about it afterwards if I did; the time to take your principled stand is beforehand.


The prospect of disagreements being ironed out is certainly a positive when viewed in a vacuum, however given the UK's recent tendency to be offered an inch, end up with two and complain that they didn't get a mile, I would not be willing to undermine the EU's integrity or future bargaining position with other third parties to keep a handful of easily led, misguided children and the drug dealers encouraging them on from the sidelines back home in the North quietened down.

The UK know only too well if the protocol goes they are back to square one looking for a deal that cannot be done without a border in the Irish Sea or a UI.

Simple as that really and Unionists got us here.

RobMc59

FrancieBrady wrote: »

How could it be ironed out if Unionist leaders are in Never Never mode over it?

Would it not be better for them to climb down from that position and support their government who are copperfastening the protocol and using the flexibilities contained in it?

As a moderate British person who wants the UK to remain united but who also cares about Ireland I was initially disappointed johnson`s actions have separated NI from the rest of the UK.This evaporated when I realised the unique advantageous position NI is now in whilst remaining within the UK.If the EU is willing to compromise I don`t see that as some kind of victory to gloat about in some unpleasant macabre way.Where does that get any of us?Endless bickering and squabbling.I see it as a victory for common sense.

Dyr

schmittel wrote: »

"Tells his Stormont counterpart"??!! Doesn't sound like a relationship of equals to be honest :D:D

You want to know how ****ed NI is, Edwin Poots is running parts of it.

Place needs to be run directly by Ireland or the UK, or even Europe. Even the bloody UN could do a better job than the nordies

Mad_maxx

king_gizzard wrote: »

This guy gets it

dont think ive ever heard as much surgical truth in the space of two minutes in my entire life

he didnt give nolan a MM

FrancieBrady

Mad_maxx wrote: »

dont think ive ever hear as much surgical truth in the space of two minutes in my entire life

he didnt give nolan a MM

If that attitude became more vocal in the UK, Johnson would cut it lose in a heartbeat.

He felt empowered enough to shaft the Unionists as it was over the border. He knew he nor a single Tory MP was not going to suffer electorally for it.

Mad_maxx

FrancieBrady wrote: »

If that attitude became more vocal in the UK, Johnson would cut it lose in a heartbeat.

He felt empowered enough to shaft the Unionists as it was over the border. He knew he nor a single Tory MP was not going to suffer electorally for it.

yes but BJ is also full of " John Bull " , now that the rioting is becoming more widely reported in the media , he will want to take to the seas and fight for every inch of " Blighty " or at least make the optics appear that way

steddyeddy

[Deleted User] wrote: »

The thread could do with some more level-headed unionists. The man is a terrible representative.

And there are plenty of those. We seem to get extremes here on Boards.

FrancieBrady

Mad_maxx wrote: »

yes but BJ is also full of " John Bull " , now that the rioting is becoming more widely reported in the media , he will want to take to the seas and fight for every inch of " Blighty " or at least make the optics appear that way

The 'optics' are the same as the reality, both he and May before him shafted Unionists while brazenly telling them they weren't.

Akrasia

RobMc59 wrote: »

I just want things to calm down.Compromise and common sense is preferable for everyone. I'm not happy with what Johnson has 'negotiated'but if problems with the protocol can be solved amicably that's better for all of us imo.
The UK has to abide by what it rightly or wrongly signed up to.If the EU is willing to compromise to ease this along,all the better.

2 questions on this
1. Do you trust the UK Tory led government to abide by the terms of any compromise the EU might come up with yo ease the burden on Northern Ireland

2. Seriously, do you really trust them? And if they cannot be trusted, why can they be trusted to abide by a new (compromise) agreement