Belfast Disturbances

FrancieBrady

Mad_maxx wrote: »

yes but BJ is also full of " John Bull " , now that the rioting is becoming more widely reported in the media , he will want to take to the seas and fight for every inch of " Blighty " or at least make the optics appear that way

The 'optics' are the same as the reality, both he and May before him shafted Unionists while brazenly telling them they weren't.

Akrasia

RobMc59 wrote: »

I just want things to calm down.Compromise and common sense is preferable for everyone. I'm not happy with what Johnson has 'negotiated'but if problems with the protocol can be solved amicably that's better for all of us imo.
The UK has to abide by what it rightly or wrongly signed up to.If the EU is willing to compromise to ease this along,all the better.

2 questions on this
1. Do you trust the UK Tory led government to abide by the terms of any compromise the EU might come up with yo ease the burden on Northern Ireland

2. Seriously, do you really trust them? And if they cannot be trusted, why can they be trusted to abide by a new (compromise) agreement

Akrasia

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

Brexit itself is in contravention of the GFA, it is what has caused this present situation. But it's what unionists supported and voted for, so technically they can't really argue against it.

The DUP were never in favor of the GFA or powersharing
They want to retain their ‘birthright’ to subjugate Catholics with the force of the British empire to back them up. They’re completely divorced from the modern reality that Ireland is a modern advanced economy and the north is the basket case forced to survive on handouts, (many of which came from the EU structural funds but they’d never ever like to admit that)

Northern Ireland certainly has the potential to be a prosperous and functioning society, but not while its controlled by the likes of the DUP

Akrasia

mariaalice wrote: »

Language is fascinating, I have no time for unionists but really they would be welcome in our country it is their country as well, or more correctly it belongs to everyone who lives here.

‘Our’ is literally the inclusive possessive determinator
‘Our country’ welcoming ‘them’ is about as inclusive as you can get in linguistics in terms of sharing something between defined groups

Akrasia

RobMc59 wrote: »

It depends how you interpret Connelly`s tweet.It also depends on whether you consider some of the protocol conditions somewhat `over the top`.
Is`nt the prospect of disagreements being ironed out better for all concerned?Continued discord and the protocol possibly collapsing should`nt suit anyone who has NI`s interests at heart imo.

Who has NIs interests at heart? The Tories and DUP? Or Ireland and the EU, who fought tooth and nail to preserve the GFA while Brexiters lied and lied and lied about ‘technological solutions’ and ‘frictionless borders’ while refusing offers of extensions and grace periods and backstops because NI and ‘no deal’ were their bargaining chips that they wanted to use to force concessions from the EU

The Tories did not give one single flying f.uck about NI before, during, or after Brexit, but the EU, the ROI, even the USA cared enough about the peace process to protect the GFA that was materially breached the day Cameron announced his pathetic half cocked Brexit referendum to placate his own party without a thought to the effect it would have on tens of millions of people in the aftermath.

RobMc59

Akrasia wrote: »

2 questions on this
1. Do you trust the UK Tory led government to abide by the terms of any compromise the EU might come up with yo ease the burden on Northern Ireland

2. Seriously, do you really trust them? And if they cannot be trusted, why can they be trusted to abide by a new (compromise) agreement

I don't believe a word Johnson utters,I neither voted for brexit or him.If the EU is willing to compromise I see that as a good thing for all concerned.

FrancieBrady

RobMc59 wrote: »

I don't believe a word Johnson utters,I neither voted for brexit or him.If the EU is willing to compromise I see that as a good thing for all concerned.

The EU have already 'compromised' it's called the Withdrawal Agreement and Protocol.
What is happening is the UK is being shown how to work it.

downcow

batman75 wrote: »

Deep down any loyalist with a half a brain knows this. They know Johnson would cut them loose if he could. They are desperately clinging onto to their Britishness knowing a UI is on its way in the next 30 years. The minute Scotland was offered an independence referendum the clock has been ticking on the entity known as Northern Ireland. When Brexit was voted on people in England didn't give a toss about the implications for NI.
Any reasonable pleasant, if they are out there, loyalist will be made welcome in a UI if they wish to stay. Thousands of British people live here in the Republic enjoy it and are rightly treated with respect.
The mix of British and Irish culture makes Belfast a fascinating city to visit and I would hope that in a UI we would be tolerant enough to let people express their identity so long as it done in a respectful way. As an area populated by the traditional majority in the North I was shocked by how poverty stricken the Shankill is. I walked the Shankill Road end to end and christ it is grim. The Falls is a much more pleasant area in West Belfast.

I love your confidence about a UI in 30 years, but there is not a chance. Gfa has handed the decision to ni residents. They would have taken leave if their senses to walk away voluntarily from U.K.

downcow

downcow wrote: »

I love your confidence about a UI in 30 years, but there is not a chance. Gfa has handed the decision to ni residents. They would have taken leave if their senses to walk away voluntarily from U.K.

50% +1. The Tories will be the ones to trigger the referendum, not the Irish. And when they do you are outnumbered! This is why you need to start discussing, not dismissing a UI now!

nullzero

downcow wrote: »

I love your confidence about a UI in 30 years, but there is not a chance. Gfa has handed the decision to ni residents. They would have taken leave if their senses to walk away voluntarily from U.K.

A UI may well be on the cards in years to come.

Let's face it, Unionists are becoming a minority already, in 30 years that will likely be more pronounced.

The concern we should have down here is that Northern Ireland has been coddled for so long by Britain that we simply couldn't afford to take on your masses of civil servants and benefit recipients.

The goal for the next 10 years from Westminster and Leinster House should be to generate economic growth in Northern Ireland. They are undoubtedly sick of propping N.I up at massive cost the the British exchequer and a bit like an adult child sitting around in the family home N.I requires a good kick in the backside to straighten itself up and act like a responsible adult.

CelticRambler

RobMc59 wrote: »

Highly regarded in Ireland,Tony Connelly is reporting protocol technicalities are set to be discussed.It looks like there will be compromise to break the apparent impasse.

https://twitter.com/tconnellyRTE/status/1381982165328670724?s=20

Isn't this the same "news" that you posted about the other day? You must use a very different version of English to me, as there's absolutely no hint of compromise on the part of the EU in either report. This tweet does nothing more than reiterate one of the three pieces of information in the other:
1. Talks will take place, i.e. the UK has agreed to work within the existing dispute resolution mechanism instead of shooting its mouth off to the British press; so that's the UK falling into line.
2. A summary of the discussion will be published afterwards ... well, duh?

And

3. The EU has suggested that if the UK aligns itself with EU food standards, 90% of the problems will evaporate. So that's the UK being told to fall into line.

Where in any of this do you see the EU compromising?

FrancieBrady

CelticRambler wrote: »

Isn't this the same "news" that you posted about the other day? You must use a very different version of English to me, as there's absolutely no hint of compromise on the part of the EU in either report. This tweet does nothing more than reiterate one of the three pieces of information in the other:
1. Talks will take place, i.e. the UK has agreed to work within the existing dispute resolution mechanism instead of shooting its mouth off to the British press; so that's the UK falling into line.
2. A summary of the discussion will be published afterwards ... well, duh?

And

3. The EU has suggested that if the UK aligns itself with EU food standards, 90% of the problems will evaporate. So that's the UK being told to fall into line.

Where in any of this do you see the EU compromising?

Breaking news seems to suggest that the UK are asking for more time to respond to the legal case the EU are taking against them on the Protocol.

So all not as rosy as it was yesterday. And certainly no sign that the EU is compromising or withdrawing the legal challenge.

PokeHerKing

downcow wrote: »

I love your confidence about a UI in 30 years, but there is not a chance. Gfa has handed the decision to ni residents. They would have taken leave if their senses to walk away voluntarily from U.K.

I could say the same for Brexit. But here we are, a small majority of English people voted to leave. Id have said a UI was mostly pie in the sky before Brexit due to the relative stability and equality that the GFA brought but I'm convinced Brexit will be a new catalyst to drive one over the next few decades.

Don't worry downcow we won't burn you out, we'll pack your bags and give you a first class ferry ticket back to the motherland when it does happen.

atilladehun

nullzero wrote: »

A UI may well be on the cards in years to come.

Let's face it, Unionists are becoming a minority already, in 30 years that will likely be more pronounced.

The concern we should have down here is that Northern Ireland has been coddled for so long by Britain that we simply couldn't afford to take on your masses of civil servants and benefit recipients.

The goal for the next 10 years from Westminster and Leinster House should be to generate economic growth in Northern Ireland. They are undoubtedly sick of propping N.I up at massive cost the the British exchequer and a bit like an adult child sitting around in the family home N.I requires a good kick in the backside to straighten itself up and act like a responsible adult.

The bare minimum. For a truly successful Untied Ireland we basically need a really successful independent Northern Ireland in economic, political and most importantly social terms.

Seth Brundle

PokeHerKing wrote: »

Don't worry downcow we won't burn you out, we'll pack your bags and give you a first class ferry ticket back to the motherland when it does happen.

Comments such as that aren't helpful to anyone. At all!

Any citizen in NI has as much right to stay there regardless of the prevaling government (RoI or UK).
If NI were to become part of the repoublic then all will be welcome, unionist or nationalist. If they choose to vent anger at a democratic result then that can be dealt with but on no occasion will people be deported simply because they are different.
Please stop with the childish troublemaking comments

hometruths

PokeHerKing wrote: »

Don't worry downcow we won't burn you out, we'll pack your bags and give you a first class ferry ticket back to the motherland when it does happen.

And a visa to cross the border in the Irish sea.

RobMc59

CelticRambler wrote: »

Isn't this the same "news" that you posted about the other day? You must use a very different version of English to me, as there's absolutely no hint of compromise on the part of the EU in either report. This tweet does nothing more than reiterate one of the three pieces of information in the other:
1. Talks will take place, i.e. the UK has agreed to work within the existing dispute resolution mechanism instead of shooting its mouth off to the British press; so that's the UK falling into line.
2. A summary of the discussion will be published afterwards ... well, duh?

And

3. The EU has suggested that if the UK aligns itself with EU food standards, 90% of the problems will evaporate. So that's the UK being told to fall into line.

Where in any of this do you see the EU compromising?

Personally,Tony Connelly is similar to Katya Adler,nothing special but apparently the doyen of a certain thread.
Yes,I'll keep plugging away for my country despite disagreeing with brexit and disliking Johnson.If the EU compromises that is good for my country,I make an effort not to link or quote from UK media,perhaps I'm wrong but Connelly appears to hint at compromise,not the usual'Do as you're told,UK over a barrel' drivel posted elsewhere.

Fionn1952

schmittel wrote: »

And a visa to cross the border in the Irish sea.

Isn't this just the other cheek of the same ar*e of petty triumphalism we've been highly critical of from Unionism for most of the last hundred years in NI?

You lose all moral highground when you gleefully rub your hands at, 'getting your turn' when the shoe is on the other foot.

FrancieBrady

RobMc59 wrote: »

Personally,Tony Connelly is similar to Katya Adler,nothing special but apparently the doyen of a certain thread.
Yes,I'll keep plugging away for my country despite disagreeing with brexit and disliking Johnson.If the EU compromises that is good for my country,I make an effort not to link or quote from UK media,perhaps I'm wrong but Connelly appears to hint at compromise,not the usual'Do as you're told,UK over a barrel' drivel posted elsewhere.

The EU are sticking to their legal pursuit of the UK. The UK is asking for more time.

Doesn't seem to be any compromise, the UK are being asked to uphold the agreements they made.

PokeHerKing

Seth Brundle wrote: »

Comments such as that aren't helpful to anyone. At all!

Any citizen in NI has as much right to stay there regardless of the prevaling government (RoI or UK).
If NI were to become part of the repoublic then all will be welcome, unionist or nationalist. If they choose to vent anger at a democratic result then that can be dealt with but on no occasion will people be deported simply because they are different.
Please stop with the childish troublemaking comments

Downcow is a low level troll. He/she has zero want or desire to understand or inform themselves of the 'other side. Anyone engaging with them at any kind of serious level is a fool imo.

I stand by my main point though, anyone who thinks human nature won't take over in the reverse if we get a UI is naive.

CelticRambler

RobMc59 wrote: »

perhaps I'm wrong but Connelly appears to hint at compromise

Where? What exact word or phrase has he written that hints in even the most obscure way at compromise? Because in the texts you've linked, I'm not seeing anything other than the EU sticking to what was agreed, which includes mechanisms for framing evolution of the NI Protocol as well as sanctioning the law-breaking UK.

Outside Tony Connelly's tweets, the only other pronouncements seem to be
- UK needs to implement the protocol as agreed
- UK has been served notice of legal action
- UK needs to use the dispute resolution mechanisms as agreed
- UK ought to consider alignment of its SPS rules with those of the EU
- UK is reminded that the TCA is conditional on its good conduct.

Once again: what precise statements can you reference that hint at compromise?

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Breaking news seems to suggest that the UK are asking for more time to respond to the legal case the EU are taking against them on the Protocol.

So all not as rosy as it was yesterday. And certainly no sign that the EU is compromising or withdrawing the legal challenge.

Well, they're getting "more time" ... in the sense that the European Parliament has again decided that Britain's behaviour does not support a decision to ratify the TCA.

Leading MEPs on Tuesday once again refused to set a date to ratify the EU-U.K. post-Brexit trade deal, saying they would wait until London gives reassurances it will apply the deal.

RobMc59

FrancieBrady wrote: »

The EU are sticking to their legal pursuit of the UK. The UK is asking for more time.

Doesn't seem to be any compromise, the UK are being asked to uphold the agreements they made.

Ah francie,difficult to see you amongst the loons claiming anyone with a pro UK view is trolling or should be deported.
Anyway....depending on which news feed you look at there are claims ranging from 'discussion' to 'compromise'.Only time will tell what is the truth.

PVNevin

Sectarian politics is a dead-end, a trap. Constantly arguing over the 'two sides' will not change a thing. The various elites, Protestant and Catholic, British and Irish, stay in power. Deprivation mushrooms.

There are two political parties engaged in the sectarian political apparatus in the north. Namely our friends the DUP; and Sinn Fein.

Gerry Kelly, a leading Sinn Fein figure, infamously blurted during a Westminster election several years ago: 'If all the Catholics came out and voted we would win North Belfast'.

Arlene Foster and Michelle O'Neill endlessly play the game of reinforcing the sectarian division.

Northern Ireland is not Mars. The fundamental issue in the North is the same as every country on this planet. That issue is class.
In the North the particular divisive agenda used by the ruling class is religious sectarianism. Remember this, Sinn Fein play their role in maintaining that. They depend on sectarianism. Sinn Fein betray workers just as much as the DUP do.

Fionn1952

RobMc59 wrote: »

Ah francie,difficult to see you amongst the loons claiming anyone with a pro UK view is trolling or should be deported.
Anyway....depending on which news feed you look at there are claims ranging from 'discussion' to 'compromise'.Only time will tell what is the truth.

So not Tony Connolly, random, 'other' non specified news feeds....which you're not going to share, but rather falsely attribute to Tony? I could take a guess at several, 'sources' who will be parroting it that might explain your reluctance to share.

Time will certainly tell, and I'm sure you'll be along to discuss further if you're mistaken.

FrancieBrady

RobMc59 wrote: »

Ah francie,difficult to see you amongst the loons claiming anyone with a pro UK view is trolling or should be deported.

What?

Anyway....depending on which news feed you look at there are claims ranging from 'discussion' to 'compromise'.Only time will tell what is the truth.

What news feeds are saying the EU is 'compromising'?

Mad_maxx

PokeHerKing wrote: »

Downcow is a low level troll. He/she has zero want or desire to understand or inform themselves of the 'other side. Anyone engaging with them at any kind of serious level is a fool imo.

I stand by my main point though, anyone who thinks human nature won't take over in the reverse if we get a UI is naive.

I don't think they are a " troll "

Just a " not an inch " unionist

20silkcut

PokeHerKing wrote: »

Downcow is a low level troll. He/she has zero want or desire to understand or inform themselves of the 'other side. Anyone engaging with them at any kind of serious level is a fool imo.

I stand by my main point though, anyone who thinks human nature won't take over in the reverse if we get a UI is naive.

In the post independent free state of 100 years ago many Protestants just adopted to the new reality and continued to prosper.
There was a certain amount of burning them out and land grabbing particularly in the case of large estates. But for most of the strong farmer class of Protestants in the south life continued as normal.
No reason to think it would be any different in a future UI particularly in rural areas anyway.
There was no real animosity between the two sides well none that was widely ventilated anyway. Bar maybe competition for land but that was as likely to be catholic v catholic as Protestant v catholic.
There was and is to this day a suspicion of Protestants going above and beyond to look after their own but the reality is every farming family and community in rural Ireland looks after its own. So all is fair in love and war.

CelticRambler

RobMc59 wrote: »

Anyway....depending on which news feed you look at there are claims ranging from 'discussion' to 'compromise'.Only time will tell what is the truth.

While we're waiting for time to tell, any chance you can provide us with these non-Connelly texts so that we can understand what he's not saying?

hometruths

Fionn1952 wrote: »

Isn't this just the other cheek of the same ar*e of petty triumphalism we've been highly critical of from Unionism for most of the last hundred years in NI?

You lose all moral highground when you gleefully rub your hands at, 'getting your turn' when the shoe is on the other foot.

Fair enough, it was an unnecessary snarky remark, but I am certainly not suggesting deporting Unionists or driving them out.

But downcow strikes me as the type of Unionist who feels British to their fingertips, and no amount of dialogue or offering concessions to change flags/symbols is going to change the fact that as a British person they do not want to live in Ireland.

Trying to come up with solutions that will make downcow feel better about a UI is futile. It's like Gregory Campbell's outburst on the recent debate: “You just do not get it. We are British, those three words.”

Downcow has repeatedly referenced Brexit saying it was democratically decided by their fellow voters, and thus they accept it and will live with it.'

In a UI one would hope that would be the same. But if not, the only solution as a British person who would rather live in Britain than Ireland, is to move to Britain.

That is the plain reality. And in any negotiations I'd rather see some moves by the British to make all sorts of concessions and incentives to entice the most loyalist Brits in NI to move to Britain than asking Ireland to make unpalatable changes for the majority that are unlikely to ever satisfy the minority.

trixi001

downcow wrote: »

I love your confidence about a UI in 30 years, but there is not a chance. Gfa has handed the decision to ni residents. They would have taken leave if their senses to walk away voluntarily from U.K.

Or maybe they would be mad to stay in the UK...

Just some examples of how life is better in the south - much better welfare system and higher public sector pay - and considering how many in the North are either claiming benefits or in the public sector - they would be a lot better of if they were getting paid at Southern levels

Unemployment Benefit - €203 vs £75

Unemployment due to COVID - €350 vs £95

Civil Service Pay - Executive Officer - €31 - €51k vs £25 - £26k
Deputy/Assistant Principal - €69k - €85k vs £38k to £41k

And tax rates are not significantly different.

The massive differences in income make it difficult for Northerners to afford things in the South - I live on the border, have family in the South, spend a lot of time in it, get my cheap diesel lol, and although things are more expensive they are not double the price, but the disparity in income levels makes it difficult to go out for dinner with friends etc, as what they see as being reasonably priced, we see as being extortionate.. - and the influx of southern people staycationing in the North, is driving the prices up to levels Northerners can't afford.

I used to live in South Down, about 25 mile from the border, and although i regularly crossed the border i don't think even i understood the impact of it on everyday life for those living nearer it. I have now moved to different area, and am less than a mile from it, and am only now beginning to understand..

Some people living in border areas who work both side of it have to register for dual tax and submit 2 return, pay 2 sets of professional registration fees, 2 sets of rules & regulations to learn, have to do conversion courses to move to a new job 5 mile away, have to know & comply with 2 different sets of laws. For many the border is more than just an inconvenience, it directly affects them in a very negative way and costs businesses a fortune. A self employed electrician in Newry, can't work in Dundalk without registering and paying fees and getting inspected by RECI (The RoI Electrical Certification body), its difficult to chase for non payment across the border etc.

I love the North, its my home, and i do see the benefits of dual citizenship and our unique way of life.. and do think some here have an excellent quality of life as housing is more affordable, car tax & insurance are cheaper etc, but for many people here they would be far better off financially in the South..and easily able to afford private health insurance too, to reduce the impact of losing the NHS (which Swan said could take 10 years to clear waiting lists!) - although the south do seem to be moving slowing towards a universal health care system too.

Now - if NI became an economic success, which it has a chance to with the protocol, it would drive private sector wages up, and drive up the NICS pay too, we have no control over the terrible welfare system (although i do acknowledge for people with children the welfare system is not as bad as it is for singles, childless), this would reduce the difference in North/South pay..

So basically despite the fact the I do love the North, the hassle of the border, disparity across it, etc, I like many others would vote to leave the UK.. it would make my everyday life so much easier..

Every person in NI will have there own reasons on how they vote, some will vote because they believe NI rightful place is in the UK or as part of a UI (and no economic or social argument will ever persuade them otherwise) others will vote for whatever way is best economically either for the whole of the North or for themselves or their business, others will vote for the status quo because they don't like change.

Just because you think someone would be mad to voluntarily walk away from the UK, doesn't mean everyone shares that view..