Belfast Disturbances

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I'm pretty sure I haven't demonised bands like this downcow. They have 'demonised' themselves.

Francie that would be like me saying gaa county senior teams are sectarian scumbags, based on the fact that the Tyrone team demonised themselves by shouting sectarian slogans at young Protestant girls.
That would be absurd and I would neither think it or say it. I am quite sure not all county gaa teams behave like Tyrone and I am sure there were many within the Tyrone team deeply upset by their teammates behaviour.

As I keep telling you Francie, life is not as b&w as you’d like.

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

Francie that would be like me saying gaa county senior teams are sectarian scumbags, based on the fact that the Tyrone team demonised themselves by shouting sectarian slogans at young Protestant girls.
That would be absurd and I would neither think it or say it. I am quite sure not all county gaa teams behave like Tyrone and I am sure there were many within the Tyrone team deeply upset by their teammates behaviour.

As I keep telling you Francie, life is not as b&w as you’d like.

How did I demonise bands like this downcow? Do you support bands like this? Do they represent the 'loyalist' community?

Penfailed

downcow wrote: »

I just like facts.

Really? You must've been taking a break when chatting about Arlene and Jeffrey leaving the UUP?

downcow

Penfailed wrote: »

Really? You must've been taking a break when chatting about Arlene and Jeffrey leaving the UUP?

??

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

How did I demonise bands like this downcow? Do you support bands like this? Do they represent the 'loyalist' community?

I don’t know anything about this band but it is one of 650 and you consistently try to make the band scene appear belligerent Etc.
It’s cheap and it’s poor.

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

I don’t know anything about this band but it is one of 650 and you consistently try to make the band scene appear belligerent Etc.
It’s cheap and it’s poor.

Because I am aware of the work the Parades Commission has had to do.

If 'you don't know about this band' how can you say with certainty that there aren't more of them?

Penfailed

downcow wrote: »

I just like facts.

downcow wrote: »

Just rediculous to blame Arlene. I am far from an Arlene admirer. But to blame someone who was driven from her home as a child, then the ira tried to murder her father, then her school bus was bombed. She still remained moderate enough to support the gfa She is not the bigot that she get painted
I think blame mainly falls on those who used the threat of violence to put a border through the middle of our nation eg Leo, and of course the shinners for seemingly given permission to have illegal gatherings

downcow wrote: »

If my memory serves me correctly she stayed for several years after gfa and assisted with its implementation. Donaldson left the day it was signed and that was over release of terrorists

Facts?

FrancieBrady

Penfailed wrote: »

Facts?

Not forgetting the 'Ian Paisley was never in the Orange Order' 'fact'.

CelticRambler

downcow wrote: »

Here is something I haven’t read myself but the opening paragraph gives me a sense that they know what they are talking about, maybe worth a read for anyone that wants an insight - link below

“... I also don’t think people in Northern Ireland – and I don’t just mean people in the Catholic community – realise the full extent of the band sector. There are some 650 bands within the Protestant community – and a smaller number within the Catholic community. Membership of each band can range from between twenty to eighty people, and if we take an average of forty-five members per band, that means about 30,000 people are actively involved. And if you include their family members – not to mention the thousands of spectators and supporters – you can see why the Ulster band scene is one of the largest voluntary movements in the UK.”

I think this post sums up all that is wrong with Northern Ireland unionism: a desperate lack of critical thinking. "I haven't read it but I believe what it says" and then offers a cherry picked section of the unread text in support of an argument, only the cherry is rotten.

On the one hand, it's claimed that the "band sector" is one of the largest voluntary movements in the UK. Really? ln the UK? And on the other, people in Northern Ireland [don't] realise the full extent of the band sector. So that would surely make it some kind of secret society that infiltrates almost every corner of the United Kingdom? Yeah, right ... :rolleyes:

The fact of the matter (downcow says he loves facts) is that the band sector is almost completely irrelevant to Great Britain - it's a Northern Ireland tradition, not a British tradition, and trying to make it so by extending the statistics to include the whole of the UK undermines the author's position.

If you take the GAA or Comhaltas membership in Britain, when you include NI clubs/branches (coz that's part of the UK, innit?), their numbers dwarf the purported 30k marching band members, making them considerably more important voluntary movements in the United Kingdom, where they have a much higher profile nationally (within GB) and internationally.

Ironically, in a United Ireland, Bord Fáilte (or whatever they call themselves these days) would undoubtedly do amazing work to promote every aspect of the marching band tradition, including the associated instruments, parade routes, and legends. Not something you're ever likely to see under the stewardship of Visit Britain.

ILoveYourVibes

downcow wrote: »

“I think most nationalists and republicans assume that the only reason people in the Protestant community want to join marching bands is because of a ‘Kick the Pope’ mentality. Okay, you do get Prods who think like that, but for the vast majority of band members it’s to do with their culture, their heritage, their sense of identity.

I don't want anyone to attack protestants in anyway. BUT

You can't be a member of any of these bands and be a catholic.

In fact for most of them including the orange order you can't be even MARRIED to a catholic or have one catholic parent.

Most of them won't allow muslims to join.

You can't join many of them if you are gay.

And for the orange order you can't even join if you are just a liberal even if you are a protestant if you have been a member of labor for instance.

I think you need to admit that these bands are not very diverse. To say the least.

Also the idea that these bands don't have the same membership requirements as the orange order ...well some of them have worse requirements ...

I mean the Royal black you can't even have a catholic friend more or less.


And even if all the bands are not a part of the orange order ...they all part take in the orange festival.



I mean these are not part of the orange order. They are just a band called the Pride of Ardoyne. But they march with the names of loyalist paramilitaries on their backs.

And by the way i don't want to get rid of the orange order. I would be MORE in favor of changes coming from within the orange order and the other marching bands.

I mean WHY don't any of these bands march in BELFAST PRIDE ETC???

Show people they are changing?

And by the way i don't want anyone to go about attacking these bands etc not even verbally. But i think some things can be criticized.

I think you have to admit the festivals they take part on on the 12th ....they can be be seen as places simply where they burn the irish flag.

I mean they seem to like playing offensive songs around catholic areas and not want catholics to join these bands etc or feel welcome..and that is not just the orange order.

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Because I am aware of the work the Parades Commission has had to do.

If 'you don't know about this band' how can you say with certainty that there aren't more of them?

I didn’t say there wasn’t more of ‘them’. Now can you admit that the vast majority of loyalist bands a decent well behave cultural organisations

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

I didn’t say there wasn’t more of ‘them’. Now can you admit that the vast majority of loyalist bands a decent well behave cultural organisations

You claimed 'not to know' of this band.

How can you speak about the culture with any authority in that case?

downcow

CelticRambler wrote: »

I think this post sums up all that is wrong with Northern Ireland unionism: a desperate lack of critical thinking. "I haven't read it but I believe what it says" and then offers a cherry picked section of the unread text in support of an argument, only the cherry is rotten.

On the one hand, it's claimed that the "band sector" is one of the largest voluntary movements in the UK. Really? ln the UK? And on the other, people in Northern Ireland [don't] realise the full extent of the band sector. So that would surely make it some kind of secret society that infiltrates almost every corner of the United Kingdom? Yeah, right ... :rolleyes:

The fact of the matter (downcow says he loves facts) is that the band sector is almost completely irrelevant to Great Britain - it's a Northern Ireland tradition, not a British tradition, and trying to make it so by extending the statistics to include the whole of the UK undermines the author's position.

If you take the GAA or Comhaltas membership in Britain, when you include NI clubs/branches (coz that's part of the UK, innit?), their numbers dwarf the purported 30k marching band members, making them considerably more important voluntary movements in the United Kingdom, where they have a much higher profile nationally (within GB) and internationally.

Ironically, in a United Ireland, Bord Fáilte (or whatever they call themselves these days) would undoubtedly do amazing work to promote every aspect of the marching band tradition, including the associated instruments, parade routes, and legends. Not something you're ever likely to see under the stewardship of Visit Britain.

My goodness your cage was rattled.
I read the first two paragraphs only and that’s what I posted.
I have a fair understanding of the loyalist band scene so have no need to read it. I said it may be of use who want to know more about the bands.
I have no doubt there are lots of people enjoying Irish dance, and I wish them well. If I had nothing good to say about them, then I would say nothing. I know a few Irish dancers and they are very nice moderate people who just enjoy their culture. Similar with the gaa. Most I know are lovely people. I know some very nasty gaa behaviour but I won’t judge every gaa member based on it.

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

You claimed 'not to know' of this band.

How can you speak about the culture with any authority in that case?

There are probably 1,000 loyalist bands. How could I possibly know each of them. That is rediculous

ek motor

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

I don't want anyone to attack protestants in anyway. BUT

You can't be a member of any of these bands and be a catholic.

In fact for most of them including the orange order you can't be even MARRIED to a catholic or have one catholic parent.

Most of them won't allow muslims to join.

You can't join many of them if you are gay.

And for the orange order you can't even join if you are just a liberal even if you are a protestant if you have been a member of labor for instance.

I think you need to admit that these bands are not very diverse. To say the least.

Also the idea that these bands don't have the same membership requirements as the orange order ...well some of them have worse requirements ...

I mean the Royal black you can't even have a catholic friend more or less.


And even if all the bands are not a part of the orange order ...they all part take in the orange festival.



I mean these are not part of the orange order. They are just a band called the Pride of Ardoyne. But they march with the names of loyalist paramilitaries on their backs.

And by the way i don't want to get rid of the orange order. I would be MORE in favor of changes coming from within the orange order and the other marching bands.

I mean WHY don't any of these bands march in BELFAST PRIDE ETC???

Show people they are changing?

And by the way i don't want anyone to go about attacking these bands etc not even verbally. But i think some things can be criticized.

I think you have to admit the festivals they take part on on the 12th ....they can be be seen as places simply where they burn the irish flag.

I mean they seem to like playing offensive songs around catholic areas and not want catholics to join these bands etc or feel welcome..and that is not just the orange order.

Why would they march in a pride parade ? Why do they have to virtue signal that 'they are changing'?

Utterly bizarre line of reasoning.

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

There are probably 1,000 loyalist bands. How could I possibly know each of them. That is rediculous

So you aren't an authority then.

I look at the Parades Commission website and listen to them being denigrated for the great work they have done getting bands to 'behave' and be 'decent'.

I am not convinced by your argument tbh. Would they be marching where they are not wanted if the law was not there?....hmmmm.

downcow

Back to the original post. I fear we are in for a difficult period now that the Duke is laid to rest.

Speedline

downcow wrote: »

Back to the original post. I fear we are in for a difficult period now that the Duke is laid to rest.

Will we have more 'protests', do you think?

Seth Brundle

downcow wrote: »

Back to the original post. I fear we are in for a difficult period now that the Duke is laid to rest.

You mean the people who took a break from protesting as a mark of respect to the queen will now continue their campaign of violence and intimidation because of an international agreement signed by the queen?

FrancieBrady

Seth Brundle wrote: »

You mean the people who took a break from protesting as a mark of respect to the queen will now continue their campaign of violence and intimidation because of an international agreement signed by the queen?

Or have we seen anther demonstration of 'Never Never ...well maybe' from unionist politicians?

trashcan

Seth Brundle wrote: »

You mean the people who took a break from protesting as a mark of respect to the queen will now continue their campaign of violence and intimidation because of an international agreement signed by the queen?

Ah, but it’s not her fault dontcha know, or Boris. It was nasty Leo and the big bad EU what forced them to do it.

CelticRambler

downcow wrote: »

My goodness your cage was rattled.

And as usual, you've completely missed the point, that being the attempt of the author of the article to implicate the whole of the United Kingdom in this niche culture. NI marching bands not a British tradition, so there's no need to describe the organisation on a UK-wide basis.

Perhaps, seeing as you say

downcow wrote: »

I have a fair understanding of the loyalist band scene so have no need to read it.

you could explain why it is always framed in terms of the British identity of the marchers, when its roots line in the continental French and Flemish-Dutch origins of the loyalist community? Those influences are never celebrated.

Junkyard Tom

ek motor wrote: »

Why would they march in a pride parade ?

In solidarity with the members of their bands who are part of the LGBQT community? Don't tell me none of those lads aren't blowing each other's flutes.

steddyeddy

downcow wrote: »

Back to the original post. I fear we are in for a difficult period now that the Duke is laid to rest.

Well yes I fear you are. Not only in the short term but the long term too.

Christy42

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

In solidarity with the members of their bands who are part of the LGBQT community? Don't tell me none of those lads aren't blowing each other's flutes.

Do they want to be in solidarity with those members? From the list (which I haven't verified but looks pretty horrible) mentioned beforehand excluding those who are different seems to be a large part of their "culture".

ILoveYourVibes

ek motor wrote: »

Why would they march in a pride parade ? Why do they have to virtue signal that 'they are changing'?

Utterly bizarre line of reasoning.

Could they march in any parade that isn't sectarian at least then?

Could they NOT wear the names of loyalist paramilitaries on their backs when they march ?

ILoveYourVibes

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

In solidarity with the members of their bands who are part of the LGBQT community? Don't tell me none of those lads aren't blowing each other's flutes.

I honestly think the LGBT community stay well away from them.


https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/orange-order-stands-by-fermanagh-county-grand-master-after-homosexuality-is-wrong-remarks-31468545.html

Orange Order stands by Fermanagh County Grand Master after 'homosexuality is wrong' remarks

Do they want to be in solidarity with those members? From the list (which I haven't verified but looks pretty horrible) mentioned beforehand excluding those who are different seems to be a large part of their "culture".

These are really indoctrination cults. They are taught from a young age their identity is based on outward vicious EXPRESSION of this very exclusion.

Just as they are taught to burn the Irish flag ..sing sectarian songs IN catholic areas. (and that is not just the orange order its many of the bands).

Junkyard Tom

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

These are really indoctrination cults. They are taught from a young age their identity is based on outward vicious EXPRESSION of this very exclusion.

Indeed.

downcow

Speedline wrote: »

Will we have more 'protests', do you think?

Yes I think things will kick off this week again.
I don’t know the answer.
They watch threat of violence work to get the protocol and then that watch a week of minor violence of there own get more attention than months of politics, and got people talking and meeting in Dublin Belfast London and Washington. These are dangerous messages. Why wouldn’t the up the ante a bit to get more attention

Ash.J.Williams

Give Prince Andrew his admiral costume and send him to Belfast