Belfast Disturbances

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

Yes I think things will kick off this week again.
I don’t know the answer.
They watch threat of violence work to get the protocol and then that watch a week of minor violence of there own get more attention than months of politics, and got people talking and meeting in Dublin Belfast London and Washington. These are dangerous messages. Why wouldn’t the up the ante a bit to get more attention

A few days ago these were just brats using any excuse for a riot with no organisation behind them.
Are you saying 13 year olds are 'watching meetings in Dublin Belfast and Washington' and reacting to them?

Why should anyone care what 13 year old's think if they are wrecking their own areas?

Speedline

downcow wrote: »

Yes I think things will kick off this week again.
I don’t know the answer.
They watch threat of violence work to get the protocol and then that watch a week of minor violence of there own get more attention than months of politics, and got people talking and meeting in Dublin Belfast London and Washington. These are dangerous messages. Why wouldn’t the up the ante a bit to get more attention

As far as I know, the protocol is unchanged. In so far as getting anyone's attention, it was the UK government who were spurred into action, and back into discussions. After all, they were the ones who ignored the protocol and ignored everyone else.

Anyhow if loyalists want to riot and set fire to their own communities, let them off. Even better if they spur the uk government into implementing the protocol.

Suit them better to get a cv done up and ask Edwin Poots for a job building the permanent structures for inspections.

downcow

CelticRambler wrote: »

And as usual, you've completely missed the point, that being the attempt of the author of the article to implicate the whole of the United Kingdom in this niche culture. NI marching bands not a British tradition, so there's no need to describe the organisation on a UK-wide basis.

Perhaps, seeing as you say

you could explain why it is always framed in terms of the British identity of the marchers, when its roots line in the continental French and Flemish-Dutch origins of the loyalist community? Those influences are never celebrated.

I think we are back to you not understanding the UK.
Cricket is British identity but there are large swathes of the UK where little or know cricket is played. Morris dancing is british and I think it is pretty much limited to one county.
Lots of british stuff is focused in one area of the UK.
Loyalist marching bands are focused in Northern Ireland and the west of Scotland but certainly not limited to those areas.
So you define british as you wish, but don’t expect everyone else to agree with the measure
Irish set dancing is british, the Tyrone gaa team are a british gaa team.

hometruths

downcow wrote: »

I think we are back to you not understanding the UK.
Cricket is British identity but there are large swathes of the UK where little or know cricket is played. Morris dancing is british and I think it is pretty much limited to one county.
Lots of british stuff is focused in one area of the UK.
Loyalist marching bands are focused in Northern Ireland and the west of Scotland but certainly not limited to those areas.
So you define british as you wish, but don’t expect everyone else to agree with the measure
Irish set dancing is british, the Tyrone gaa team are a british gaa team.

Im a pragmatic southerner, inclined to vote against a UI on pragmatic grounds rather than for a UI on ideological grounds.

Having said that, it wouldn’t take too many remarks like the above to get to me to change my mind.

downcow

schmittel wrote: »

Im a pragmatic southerner, inclined to vote against a UI on pragmatic grounds rather than for a UI on ideological grounds.

Having said that, it wouldn’t take too many remarks like the above to get to me to change my mind.

I was responding to a poster who was trying to tell me that my culture was not British. Not nice, is it?

hometruths

downcow wrote: »

I was responding to a poster who was trying to tell me that my culture was not British. Not nice, is it?

Beating a Lambeg drum is not part of British identity.

Neither is cricket. It's English.

CelticRambler

downcow wrote: »

I think we are back to you not understanding the UK.

I understand the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland perfectly well. Loyalist/Orange Order marching bands are part of the cultue of Northern Ireland. They are not part of the culture of any part of Britain. They have their roots - like the Orange Order itself - in the Dutch House of Orange and French Hugenots in exile.

King Billy came to England, had a bit of fun in Ireland, then fecked off without leaving any heirs and passed the English throne to the Germans. Loyalist-Protestant-Unionists going on and on about their British identity is just more denial of the fact that their culture is largely derived from continental protestantism.

Just because England was invaded by a Dutchman who set the scene for the unification of three kingdoms doesn't mean that anything Irish - such as the Lambeg Drum suddenly became British. Whether it's played in every village or not, cricket is recognised for what it is by all British people. Whether it's performed on every village green or not, Morris dancing is recognised for what it is by the vast majority of British people. Northern Irish fife-and-drum bands have almost no place in the British consciousness, because they're not British traditions.

Fr D Maugire

downcow wrote: »

I think we are back to you not understanding the UK.
Cricket is British identity but there are large swathes of the UK where little or know cricket is played. Morris dancing is british and I think it is pretty much limited to one county.
Lots of british stuff is focused in one area of the UK.
Loyalist marching bands are focused in Northern Ireland and the west of Scotland but certainly not limited to those areas.
So you define british as you wish, but don’t expect everyone else to agree with the measure
Irish set dancing is british, the Tyrone gaa team are a british gaa team.

That's because many things like Cricket or even Morris Dancing are more specifically related to English culture, indeed most thing widely regarded as being British around the World are really English.

Ask the majority of people around the World what they would relate the wearing of Kilt's to and they will say Scotland specifically, rather than Britain. Likewise Whiskey is more associated with Scotland or Ireland rather than Britain. Bushmills, despite it being a big Unionist area still markets itself as Irish Whiskey as opposed to British Whiskey.

By your logic, the Irish language is also a part of British culture and despite other minor languages like Scottish Gaelic and Welsh being officially recognised in Britain, you are dead set against the same level of recognition for Irish.

The level of hypocrisy you spout is just off the charts.

RandomViewer

downcow wrote: »

I was responding to a poster who was trying to tell me that my culture was not British. Not nice, is it?

British isn't a culture, its a grab all name to cover Scotland ,England and Wales, but Specifically English, Northern Loyalists are descended from Scots who betrayed their own people by siding with the English

Zebra3

downcow wrote: »

the Tyrone gaa team are a british gaa team.

I've no interest in bogball, but Tyrone has nothing to do with England, Scotland or Wales. You might as well call them a French GAA team.

downcow

CelticRambler wrote: »

I understand the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland perfectly well. Loyalist/Orange Order marching bands are part of the cultue of Northern Ireland. They are not part of the culture of any part of Britain. They have their roots - like the Orange Order itself - in the Dutch House of Orange and French Hugenots in exile.

King Billy came to England, had a bit of fun in Ireland, then fecked off without leaving any heirs and passed the English throne to the Germans. Loyalist-Protestant-Unionists going on and on about their British identity is just more denial of the fact that their culture is largely derived from continental protestantism.

Just because England was invaded by a Dutchman who set the scene for the unification of three kingdoms doesn't mean that anything Irish - such as the Lambeg Drum suddenly became British. Whether it's played in every village or not, cricket is recognised for what it is by all British people. Whether it's performed on every village green or not, Morris dancing is recognised for what it is by the vast majority of British people. Northern Irish fife-and-drum bands have almost no place in the British consciousness, because they're not British traditions.

A sad little monoculturalist viewpoint. But not really unexpected.

You say orange/marching bands are not on the mainland. More nonsense. Orange lodges are in every region of the UK. Here’s a wee glimps from Scotland of marching bands so I have no idea what you are talking about https://youtu.be/sWkPoo65GwE

downcow

Zebra3 wrote: »

I've no interest in bogball, but Tyrone has nothing to do with England, Scotland or Wales. You might as well call them a French GAA team.

I am ok with that but you may as well call me french as Irish.

hometruths

downcow wrote: »

A sad little monoculturalist viewpoint. But not really unexpected.

You say orange/marching bands are not on the mainland. More nonsense. Orange lodges are in every region of the UK. Here’s a wee glimps from Scotland of marching bands so I have no idea what you are talking about https://youtu.be/sWkPoo65GwE

Here is a an article about the Orange Order in England from a British newspaper, The Guardian - Liverpool's Orange lodges and the parading season

To some, it is a forgotten relic of Northern Ireland's bad times. But the Orange Order has been part of Liverpool for centuries, and still is.

Liverpool's connections with the island of Ireland are well-known. It is estimated that three out of every four of its inhabitants have some ancestors from either Northern Ireland or the Republic, earning it the nickname of the 'real capital of Ireland'.

However, it is arguably less well-known that the city has strong ties to both of Northern Ireland's main traditions and is regarded as being the main centre of the Orange Order in England today.

It's hardly lauding the British culture. Quite the opposite - the focus of the article seems to be about pockets of Northern Irish identity in England.

downcow

schmittel wrote: »

Here is a an article about the Orange Order in England from a British newspaper, The Guardian - Liverpool's Orange lodges and the parading season



It's hardly lauding the British culture. Quite the opposite - the focus of the article seems to be about pockets of Northern Irish identity in England.

Tbh I couldn’t even be arsed opening that link. If you are so dissatisfied with your own culture that you become infatuated about trying to put down another’s culture, then it’s just very sad.
Go and enjoy your culture and don’t worry so much about others.
If you want to do research on culture then maybe be more interesting to do your own.
Check out why you guys started doing set dancing and who you copied it off by peeping in through windows or maybe check out why you don’t move the upper part of your body during dancing, etc, etc. You should find enough there to be embarrassed about without worrying about our band culture.

hometruths

downcow wrote: »

Tbh I couldn’t even be arsed opening that link. If you are so dissatisfied with your own culture that you become infatuated about trying to put down another’s culture, then it’s just very sad.
Go and enjoy your culture and don’t worry so much about others.
If you want to do research on culture then maybe be more interesting to do your own.
Check out why you guys started doing set dancing and who you copied it off by peeping in through windows or maybe check out why you don’t move the upper part of your body during dancing, etc, etc. You should find enough there to be embarrassed about without worrying about our band culture.

I'm not worried about your band culture, nor am I infatuated with putting it down. I am just saying it is inherently Northern Irish culture and identity not British culture and identity. If you interpret that as a put down, then so be it, but no offence intended.

downcow

schmittel wrote: »

I'm not worried about your band culture, nor am I infatuated with putting it down. I am just saying it is inherently Northern Irish culture and identity not British culture and identity. If you interpret that as a put down, then so be it, but no offence intended.

I am ver happy with it being referred to as northern irish culture although it doesn’t seem to embrace the other areas it is particularly strong like Donegal and west of Scotland. But hey, call it what you like

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

I am ver happy with it being referred to as northern irish culture although it doesn’t seem to embrace the other areas it is particularly strong like Donegal and west of Scotland. But hey, call it what you like

How many 'Loyalist' bands are there in Donegal?

Christy42

downcow wrote: »

I am ver happy with it being referred to as northern irish culture although it doesn’t seem to embrace the other areas it is particularly strong like Donegal and west of Scotland. But hey, call it what you like

If you are worried about Donegal being left out why did you call it British culture? :pac:

CelticRambler

downcow wrote: »

A sad little monoculturalist viewpoint. But not really unexpected.

Monoculturalist? That's your stance - trying to make out that the NI marching band tradition is British and British alone. I've pointed out that it is a mix of Irish, Dutch and French traditions, with these elements being hard-wired into the very words used by those who practice it: Orange (from the town of Orange in France, the title gifted to the Dutch by the Holy Roman Empire and carried to Ireland by the Dutchman William of the House of Orange. Fife, from the French fifre. Lambeg from the Irish Lann beag. Drum from the Dutch tromme. You can add sash, from the Arabic šāš too if you want. And Lodge, from the French loge originally from Latin lobia, or Order, from the French ordre; and March, from the French marcher.

Can you see what's missing from all that?

downcow

CelticRambler wrote: »

Monoculturalist? That's your stance - trying to make out that the NI marching band tradition is British and British alone. I've pointed out that it is a mix of Irish, Dutch and French traditions, with these elements being hard-wired into the very words used by those who practice it: Orange (from the town of Orange in France, the title gifted to the Dutch by the Holy Roman Empire and carried to Ireland by the Dutchman William of the House of Orange. Fife, from the French fifre. Lambeg from the Irish Lann beag. Drum from the Dutch tromme. You can add sash, from the Arabic šāš too if you want. And Lodge, from the French loge originally from Latin lobia, or Order, from the French ordre; and March, from the French marcher.

Can you see what's missing from all that?

You really have lost the run of yourself.
I can’t believe what I am reading. I must tell some of the orangemen I know that you think the orange is Arabic (among other) cultures lol.
You need to go to bed with a black coffee

Seth Brundle

downcow wrote: »

So you define british as you wish, but don’t expect everyone else to agree with the measure
Irish set dancing is british, the Tyrone gaa team are a british gaa team.

I think that view shows that you have no grasp on identity differences within the population of NI. I assume that you would view someone like Emma DeSouza as British simply because she hails from NI. Anything from NI is British according to you it seems.

Tyrone212

downcow wrote: »

I am ver happy with it being referred to as northern irish culture although it doesn’t seem to embrace the other areas it is particularly strong like Donegal and west of Scotland. But hey, call it what you like

Less than 10% of Donegals population is Protestant. I make that point as Catholics are banned from joining the orange order. So well in excess of 90% of the population is prohibited from joining it. So how the hell does that constitute strong lol.

Also a study from 2001 found

PROTESTANTS in Ireland's largest border county overwhelmingly identify with Irishness and have pride in national achievements, a survey reveals.

The poll, conducted from a representative sample of 14,000 Protestants living in Donegal, also shows that 96pc of Protestants mix socially with the majority Catholic community.

The survey, conducted by Derry and Raphoe Action and funded by the ADM/Combat Poverty agency, studied the extent to which Protestants participated in community life and how they perceived their own future.

Among the findings was that 86pc of those surveyed identified with being Irish and the Irish State, while 9pc identified with Northern Ireland.

So just over 1k of the population of Donegal back in 2001 had their heart with NI over Ireland. I suspect its even lower today. So the orange order certainly isn't strong in Donegal, a place were the vast majority are banned from even joining on religious grounds.

downcow

Seth Brundle wrote: »

I think that view shows that you have no grasp on identity differences within the population of NI. I assume that you would view someone like Emma DeSouza as British simply because she hails from NI. Anything from NI is British according to you it seems.

No I was responding to someone who says my my culture is not british. I was being as rediculous as him Childish I know

Fr D Maugire

Tyrone212 wrote: »

Less than 10% of Donegals population is Protestant. I make that point as Catholics are banned from joining the orange order. So well in excess of 90% of the population is prohibited from joining it. So how the hell does that constitute strong lol.

Also a study from 2001 found

PROTESTANTS in Ireland's largest border county overwhelmingly identify with Irishness and have pride in national achievements, a survey reveals.

The poll, conducted from a representative sample of 14,000 Protestants living in Donegal, also shows that 96pc of Protestants mix socially with the majority Catholic community.

The survey, conducted by Derry and Raphoe Action and funded by the ADM/Combat Poverty agency, studied the extent to which Protestants participated in community life and how they perceived their own future.

Among the findings was that 86pc of those surveyed identified with being Irish and the Irish State, while 9pc identified with Northern Ireland.

So just over 1k of the population of Donegal back in 2001 had their heart with NI over Ireland. I suspect its even lower today. So the orange order certainly isn't strong in Donegal, a place were the vast majority are banned from even joining on religious grounds.

How many loyalist bands would march on St.Patircks day in NI I wonder? I would know of a pipe band in the Republic that would take part in 12th July parades, but also take part in the local St.Patricks Day parade as well as at other local events.

ILoveYourVibes

downcow wrote: »

No I was responding to someone who says my my culture is not british. I was being as rediculous as him Childish I know

Oh it is.

Although a lot of British people won't admit it is. But its very British ..both the bad and the good.

I mean the Bowler hats ...etc you can't deny it.

CelticRambler

downcow wrote: »

I can’t believe what I am reading. I must tell some of the orangemen I know that you think the orange is Arabic (among other) cultures lol.

You might want to read that again: I pointed out that the word sash is of Arabic origin. The Orange Order is Dutch. The House of Orange, to which William belonged, is still alive and well and ruling the Netherlands; nothing British about it (they went with the Germans).

Funny, though, how you can make repeated snide remarks about my posts, yet cannot answer the question I posed to you earlier: why do Orangemen not celebrate their Dutch and French culture? Maybe you should ask those Orangemen that you know what their reason is.

In the meantime, I will happily re-state what I said earlier: the fife-and-drum tradition, the Orange Order, the Marching Season - those are not British traditions and not British culture, and you haven't offered any evidence to support your claim that they are, other than "because I said so!"

ILoveYourVibes

CelticRambler wrote: »

You might want to read that again: I pointed out that the word sash is of Arabic origin. The Orange Order is Dutch. The House of Orange, to which William belonged, is still alive and well and ruling the Netherlands; nothing British about it (they went with the Germans).

Funny, though, how you can make repeated snide remarks about my posts, yet cannot answer the question I posed to you earlier: why do Orangemen not celebrate their Dutch and French culture? Maybe you should ask those Orangemen that you know what their reason is.

In the meantime, I will happily re-state what I said earlier: the fife-and-drum tradition, the Orange Order, the Marching Season - those are not British traditions and not British culture, and you haven't offered any evidence to support your claim that they are, other than "because I said so!"

They have the orange order in England scotland and wales.

CelticRambler

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

I mean the Bowler hats ...etc you can't deny it.

Ah yes, as epitomised by Laurel and Hardy, by Charlie Chaplin, by the Quechua women of Bolivia ... :pac:

(Oh, and along the lines of earlier clarifications: the Bowler hat is and English [Victorian] tradition, not "British")

CelticRambler

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

They have the orange order in England scotland and wales.

That doesn't change the fact that it is Dutch "tribute act" and introduced into Britain by ex-pats returning from ... ... ... Ireland.

ILoveYourVibes

CelticRambler wrote: »

That doesn't change the fact that it is Dutch "tribute act" and introduced into Britain by ex-pats returning from ... ... ... Ireland.

I would be more worried about their discrimination really than where they come from.