Belfast Disturbances

CelticRambler

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

I would be more worried about their discrimination really than where they come from.

That's because they're still living according to their 17th century version of Franco-Swiss Calvinism, imported via Scotland.

So that's not really British either.

downcow

CelticRambler wrote: »

You might want to read that again: I pointed out that the word sash is of Arabic origin. The Orange Order is Dutch. The House of Orange, to which William belonged, is still alive and well and ruling the Netherlands; nothing British about it (they went with the Germans).

Funny, though, how you can make repeated snide remarks about my posts, yet cannot answer the question I posed to you earlier: why do Orangemen not celebrate their Dutch and French culture? Maybe you should ask those Orangemen that you know what their reason is.

In the meantime, I will happily re-state what I said earlier: the fife-and-drum tradition, the Orange Order, the Marching Season - those are not British traditions and not British culture, and you haven't offered any evidence to support your claim that they are, other than "because I said so!"

I am find it difficult to engage with you because you are making no sense to me. If that is my fault then I need you to come down to my level of intelligence.

Can you tell me how you define culture and then I’ll answer your question, but I can’t keep shooting in the dark trying to guess what your criteria is.
I wasted a long time giving evidence after evidence on the ‘ni is a failure’ thread but some posters just kept moving the goal posts.
So you tell me the measure you use to say something is your culture and I’ll certainly either give you evidence or admit I am wrong

RobMc59

CelticRambler wrote: »

That's because they're still living according to their 17th century version of Franco-Swiss Calvinism, imported via Scotland.

So that's not really British either.

Spain has had considerable moorish influence through history but those influences have evolved over the centuries and are uniquely Spanish.This is the same everywhere.

CelticRambler

RobMc59 wrote: »

Spain has had considerable moorish influence through history but those influences have evolved over the centuries and are uniquely Spanish.This is the same everywhere.

Yes. But the Spanish celebrate it as their own. They don't claim that they and their culture are not Spanish, but Persian or Libyan or Macedonian because Alexander the Great also invaded those countries. NI unionists are probably unique in rejecting the origins of their own culture and attributing its characteristics to another people entirely (one that wants nothing to do with them).

FrancieBrady

CelticRambler wrote: »

Yes. But the Spanish celebrate it as their own. They don't claim that they and their culture are not Spanish, but Persian or Libyan or Macedonian because Alexander the Great also invaded those countries. NI unionists are probably unique in rejecting the origins of their own culture and attributing its characteristics to another people entirely (one that wants nothing to do with them).

I actually think that is the next phase of life in northern Ireland, the growing awareness and realisation of the abjectness of the unionist attachment to 'Britain'.
They will attack the very thing they want to accept and cherish them, the British state and it's institutions.
A destructive but probably inevitable stage.

Sunny Disposition

The enduring strength of the Orange Order is very interesting, and is kind of reflective of Northern Ireland Protestant attitudes to politics. It's a really exclusionary organisation, which not only won't allow Catholics in, but doesn't even want its members marrying Catholics. By any standards, that's quite extreme, but in NI it's just how it is, and it's treated as a reasonable organisation. I think the DUP is similar in that it actually opposed gay marriage, which should be an outrageous position today, but in NI it's not seen as very extreme.

RobMc59

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I actually think that is the next phase of life in northern Ireland, the growing awareness and realisation of the abjectness of the unionist attachment to 'Britain'.
They will attack the very thing they want to accept and cherish them, the British state and it's institutions.
A destructive but probably inevitable stage.

The origins of NI Unionism is the UK and Ulster Scottish ancestry is self explanatory and undeniably British where ever its religious origins are.The whole discussion about this is muddied by how similar Ireland and the UK actually are imo. Ireland or any of the individual UK countries are more similar than many here on boards will admit.

FrancieBrady

LCC seen off with a flea in their ear this morning.

https://twitter.com/AmandaFBelfast/status/1384082804036628490

Crooked Jack

downcow wrote: »

Trying to demonise again Francie. I have said repeatedly here that there are a broad range of bands.
Here is something I haven’t read myself but the opening paragraph gives me a sense that they know what they are talking about, maybe worth a read for anyone that wants an insight - link below

“I think most nationalists and republicans assume that the only reason people in the Protestant community want to join marching bands is because of a ‘Kick the Pope’ mentality. Okay, you do get Prods who think like that, but for the vast majority of band members it’s to do with their culture, their heritage, their sense of identity... and, at a very local level, their links with family and community.
• I also don’t think people in Northern Ireland – and I don’t just mean people in the Catholic community – realise the full extent of the band sector. There are some 650 bands within the Protestant community – and a smaller number within the Catholic community. Membership of each band can range from between twenty to eighty people, and if we take an average of forty-five members per band, that means about 30,000 people are actively involved. And if you include their family members – not to mention the thousands of spectators and supporters – you can see why the Ulster band scene is one of the largest voluntary movements in the UK.”

https://cain.ulster.ac.uk/islandpublications/hall14-ip105.pdf

I would really like to believe that, so if that's the case why not confine parades to places where they are welcome. If it's really about celebrating your own culture and heritage, why not not do that? Why the need to force it through areas you know it isnt welcome, you know it causes hurt and you know it causes trouble?

Crooked Jack

Sunny Disposition wrote: »

The enduring strength of the Orange Order is very interesting, and is kind of reflective of Northern Ireland Protestant attitudes to politics. It's a really exclusionary organisation, which not only won't allow Catholics in, but doesn't even want its members marrying Catholics. By any standards, that's quite extreme, but in NI it's just how it is, and it's treated as a reasonable organisation. I think the DUP is similar in that it actually opposed gay marriage, which should be an outrageous position today, but in NI it's not seen as very extreme.

This just isnt true. They're supported by a certain breed of unionism/loyalism but it's wildly inaccurate to claim everyone in the north thinks they're fine.
It's safe to say the significant majority of people find this organisation and that position to be quite extreme.

Crooked Jack

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I actually think that is the next phase of life in northern Ireland, the growing awareness and realisation of the abjectness of the unionist attachment to 'Britain'.
They will attack the very thing they want to accept and cherish them, the British state and it's institutions.
A destructive but probably inevitable stage.

Scottish independence will certainly cause a major reevaluation of that narrative

downcow

Crooked Jack wrote: »

I would really like to believe that, so if that's the case why not confine parades to places where they are welcome. If it's really about celebrating your own culture and heritage, why not not do that? Why the need to force it through areas you know it isnt welcome, you know it causes hurt and you know it causes trouble?

Jack it’s very complex. No one can define what ‘where it’s not wanted’ means.
Here is a personal example of the complexity.
I live on edge of a small town which was devastated by Ira sectarian violence. When I started school it was 40% Protestant, when I left school it was less than 5% Protestant, today less than 1% Protestant. The Ira attacked, bombed, murdered, burned our homes, churches and school.
The feeling of being downtrodden, isolated and bullied was intense. Throughout this a small orange hall (attacked many times) a small lodge (shots fired into their meeting) and a small band (had bobytraps left for their parades) all maintained a presence.
It is about 30 years since the band has been allowed to hold a band parade/competition in its own town. The lodge hosted our relatively small local twelfth once every 15 years. Last tme, in the 1980s, they only paraded one way to minimise disruption to locals ie less than one hour every 15 years and it does not go anywhere near housing areas - the parade is not allowed!
Many local nationalists have told me that they wish the parade could be allowed to go ahead but it was stopped because a small group of republicans blocked the road and the parades commission sided with them.
This was another message similar to the ira firebombs on Protestant homes or the faeces pushed through letterboxes - It was taken to mean ‘we want every last prod out of the town’
It would do wonders for the confidence of a desperately discriminated Protestant community to be allowed to display their culture for one hour every 15 years - but republicans can’t abide it!

So it’s complex. I absolutely do not think the orange should be parading on eg Garvaghy road, but republican need to become more tolerant of difference.
The bigots of the DUP opposing gay marriage and the bigotry of republicans opposing my culture must be consigned to the dustbin

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

Jack it’s very complex. No one can define what ‘where it’s not wanted’ means.

Yes they can, because parades are not held in places they are not wanted anymore. The FACT is that the reasons for not holding them are upheld by independent review of the submissions about them.
Look to there, as I told you before and you will find the definitions.

lurleen lumpkin

downcow wrote: »

the bigotry of republicans opposing my culture

Republicans oppose the culture of an organisation that doesn't allow catholics, or even members to be married to catholics, yet somehow it's the republicans who are bigoted?

Penfailed

downcow wrote: »

Jack it’s very complex. No one can define what ‘where it’s not wanted’ means.
Here is a personal example of the complexity.
I live on edge of a small town which was devastated by Ira sectarian violence. When I started school it was 40% Protestant, when I left school it was less than 5% Protestant, today less than 1% Protestant. The Ira attacked, bombed, murdered, burned our homes, churches and school.
The feeling of being downtrodden, isolated and bullied was intense. Throughout this a small orange hall (attacked many times) a small lodge (shots fired into their meeting) and a small band (had bobytraps left for their parades) all maintained a presence.
It is about 30 years since the band has been allowed to hold a band parade/competition in its own town. The lodge hosted our relatively small local twelfth once every 15 years. Last tme, in the 1980s, they only paraded one way to minimise disruption to locals ie less than one hour every 15 years and it does not go anywhere near housing areas - the parade is not allowed!
Many local nationalists have told me that they wish the parade could be allowed to go ahead but it was stopped because a small group of republicans blocked the road and the parades commission sided with them.
This was another message similar to the ira firebombs on Protestant homes or the faeces pushed through letterboxes - It was taken to mean ‘we want every last prod out of the town’
It would do wonders for the confidence of a desperately discriminated Protestant community to be allowed to display their culture for one hour every 15 years - but republicans can’t abide it!

So it’s complex. I absolutely do not think the orange should be parading on eg Garvaghy road, but republican need to become more tolerant of difference.
The bigots of the DUP opposing gay marriage and the bigotry of republicans opposing my culture must be consigned to the dustbin

That's not complex. The parade isn't wanted there so there shouldn't be a parade. That's simple.

CelticRambler

RobMc59 wrote: »

Ireland or any of the individual UK countries are more similar than many here on boards will admit.

Exactly as Ireland and the individual countries of GB are very similar to the countries of north-western Europe, overwhelmingly due to more than three thousand years of shared culture.

There was a piece in the Guardian the other day explaining how Scotland is culturally more suited to an alliance with the Scandinavian countries than with England. It makes perfect sense.

When Ulster was planted with Scots, the Scots of that time had next to no common culture with England. Most of their "modern" history up to that point had been defined by/imposed upon them by the Irish and the Vikings (it is often forgotten that Scotland was effectively an Irish colony until it was "liberated" as a side effect of the fight for the throne in England). John Knox changed the moral landscape when he brought fancy continental religious notions back from Geneva.

There are strong parallels between the NI loyalists' Calvinist Presbyterian perspective on everything and the culture of those territories in the US where 17th Century Scottish (or NI) Presbyterianism is still very much alive and practised. That is not a British tradition; in fact most of it runs contrary to the commonly recognised British values. Holding a UK passport doesn't entitle anyone to foist their beliefs on the people of the island of Great Britain.

Fr D Maugire

RobMc59 wrote: »

The origins of NI Unionism is the UK and Ulster Scottish ancestry is self explanatory and undeniably British where ever its religious origins are.The whole discussion about this is muddied by how similar Ireland and the UK actually are imo. Ireland or any of the individual UK countries are more similar than many here on boards will admit.

I pointed this out before, but the origins of Unionism really only date back to the mid to late 19th Century. This idea that the Protestants in Ireland have always been gung-ho British is absolute bollocks.

The first Republicans in Ireland were Presbyterians who viewed themselves very much as Irish. The COI Ascendancy class also viewed themselves as Irish and had to be coerced into agreeing to the Act of Union. Even after the defeat of the United Irishmen, Presbyterians were suspicious of the OO in the early 19th century.

It is really only since then that a sense of a common Protestant identity emerged and that was as a direct result of Catholics gaining equal democratic rights in Ireland. The Protestant ascendancy class also helped foster this by spreading anti-Catholic propaganda and creating paranoia about the intentions of Catholics towards Protestants. If you don't think that worked, then just look at the mindset of people like Downcow.

The idea of being British first and foremost only really solidified in reaction to the possibility of Home Rule in the late 19th century. As I once heard said by a Northern Protestant, asked if they were Irish 'Irish but not that type of Irish'. I think NI is the only part of the UK where people identify themselves as firstly British, then their Nationality.

Or perhaps, the easiest way to put it is this, the Protestants were happy to be seen as Irish as long as they were running the show.

Fr D Maugire

downcow wrote: »

Jack it’s very complex. No one can define what ‘where it’s not wanted’ means.
Here is a personal example of the complexity.
I live on edge of a small town which was devastated by Ira sectarian violence. When I started school it was 40% Protestant, when I left school it was less than 5% Protestant, today less than 1% Protestant. The Ira attacked, bombed, murdered, burned our homes, churches and school.
The feeling of being downtrodden, isolated and bullied was intense. Throughout this a small orange hall (attacked many times) a small lodge (shots fired into their meeting) and a small band (had bobytraps left for their parades) all maintained a presence.
It is about 30 years since the band has been allowed to hold a band parade/competition in its own town. The lodge hosted our relatively small local twelfth once every 15 years. Last tme, in the 1980s, they only paraded one way to minimise disruption to locals ie less than one hour every 15 years and it does not go anywhere near housing areas - the parade is not allowed!
Many local nationalists have told me that they wish the parade could be allowed to go ahead but it was stopped because a small group of republicans blocked the road and the parades commission sided with them.
This was another message similar to the ira firebombs on Protestant homes or the faeces pushed through letterboxes - It was taken to mean ‘we want every last prod out of the town’
It would do wonders for the confidence of a desperately discriminated Protestant community to be allowed to display their culture for one hour every 15 years - but republicans can’t abide it!

So it’s complex. I absolutely do not think the orange should be parading on eg Garvaghy road, but republican need to become more tolerant of difference.
The bigots of the DUP opposing gay marriage and the bigotry of republicans opposing my culture must be consigned to the dustbin

It's not complex Downcow, you change the basis of the OO from Religion to Race and it would be banned in a heartbeat everywhere.

cameramonkey

https://twitter.com/graces_banter/status/1383576553196376073

Just lads enjoying themselves. Culture vultures really.

Crooked Jack

downcow wrote: »

Jack it’s very complex. No one can define what ‘where it’s not wanted’ means.
Here is a personal example of the complexity.
I live on edge of a small town which was devastated by Ira sectarian violence. When I started school it was 40% Protestant, when I left school it was less than 5% Protestant, today less than 1% Protestant. The Ira attacked, bombed, murdered, burned our homes, churches and school.
The feeling of being downtrodden, isolated and bullied was intense. Throughout this a small orange hall (attacked many times) a small lodge (shots fired into their meeting) and a small band (had bobytraps left for their parades) all maintained a presence.
It is about 30 years since the band has been allowed to hold a band parade/competition in its own town. The lodge hosted our relatively small local twelfth once every 15 years. Last tme, in the 1980s, they only paraded one way to minimise disruption to locals ie less than one hour every 15 years and it does not go anywhere near housing areas - the parade is not allowed!
Many local nationalists have told me that they wish the parade could be allowed to go ahead but it was stopped because a small group of republicans blocked the road and the parades commission sided with them.
This was another message similar to the ira firebombs on Protestant homes or the faeces pushed through letterboxes - It was taken to mean ‘we want every last prod out of the town’
It would do wonders for the confidence of a desperately discriminated Protestant community to be allowed to display their culture for one hour every 15 years - but republicans can’t abide it!

So it’s complex. I absolutely do not think the orange should be parading on eg Garvaghy road, but republican need to become more tolerant of difference.
The bigots of the DUP opposing gay marriage and the bigotry of republicans opposing my culture must be consigned to the dustbin

Dont be acting oblivious. It is absolutely not complex. There are over 3000 unionist parades a year, a handful of them are contentions and given minor reroutes. Zero are banned.
I'm not engaging in any of that whataboutery. This is the here and now. We'll be here all day if were just gonna throw around accusations about the past.
Nobody opposes your culture. People bend over backwards to accommodate your culture. Newry, for example, is 90% nationalist and there's at least half a dozen unionist marches in it every year.
There is zero comparison between the less than 1% of unionist parades that get minor reroutes and the DUP denying people basic human rights. You do yourself and your cause no favours when you try to claim there is.

downcow

Penfailed wrote: »

That's not complex. The parade isn't wanted there so there shouldn't be a parade. That's simple.

It’s not wanted there by a very small group of republicans.

downcow

Fr D Maugire wrote: »

It's not complex Downcow, you change the basis of the OO from Religion to Race and it would be banned in a heartbeat everywhere.

The band that was most opposed in my town, Indeed the first significant parade to be banned in ni, was not an orange band and indeed was not even allowed to use the orange hall to practice in.
So your argument does not hold up.
Also if a Protestant town blocked a parade by an organisation that only allowed catholic members, I would equally oppose it.

RandomViewer

Can only find reports of Catholic churches being burned,
Plenty of OO lodges burned, some by themselves

Junkyard Tom

downcow wrote: »

It’s not wanted there by a very small group of republicans.

If it was a normal culture people would be competing to host it like the Fleadh Cheoil in Derry in 2013 that attracted half-a-million visits.

Seth Brundle

downcow wrote: »

It’s not wanted there by a very small group of republicans.

So we can therefore that a survey was carried out? Can you share the results of it?

FrancieBrady

Strategically drowning. They'd be better off not organising these at all.

https://twitter.com/BigweeroundJohn/status/1384244123708760071

downcow

Seth Brundle wrote: »

So we can therefore that a survey was carried out? Can you share the results of it?

My point exactly. A survey was never carried out so how do people know it’s not wanted. 20/30 people block the road and the Protestant community is threatened by a few anonymous phone calls and we are told it’s not wanted

Just for info. Should these surveys be carried out on the parade route, a stretch of the route only, the entire town, or a specified radius. Have the balls to be specific - although that won’t give republicans the room they need to duck and dive

downcow

RandomViewer wrote: »

Can only find reports of Catholic churches being burned,
Plenty of OO lodges burned, some by themselves

Am I correct, reading between the lines, that you think only Catholic Churches were burned in ni?
This gives quite an insight into the blinkered views of some southerners. You took the sf pr job hook line and sinker

downcow

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

If it was a normal culture people would be competing to host it like the Fleadh Cheoil in Derry in 2013 that attracted half-a-million visits.

Haha, how did you come up with that figure. Lies, damned lies, and statistics come to mind. - in other breaking news, Half a million people attend twelfth of July celebrations (IN ONE DAY) - getting on for the same again on the 13th, and more than a million VISITS to parades and bonfires on the lead up to the twelfth.

Is this one of the criteria for ‘normal culture’. Still can’t get anyone to define it. Could we call this number 1 on our list.

Culture measures (junkyard Tom’s)
1) big crowds turn up

downcow

My dad always said ‘you can get knowledge from a fool’ lol
https://m.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/johnson-vows-to-address-ludicrous-protocol-trade-barriers-as-he-rules-out-irish-unity-referendum-for-a-very-very-long-time-to-come-40332830.html

Seems the ‘Belfast disturbances’ have focused minds, just a little - a dangerous messages that ensures ante will be upped on the streets