Easter is antisemitic?

Markus Antonius

I am aware that we are currently in Passover as well as the Easter period but I could not pick my jaw off the floor today with the programs RTE were showing.

First thing I saw was "Countdown to Calvary", which seemed very apt for Easter. But no, it was an account completely skewed from a jewish perspective. Apparently, according to the Israeli historical "experts", the crucifixion of Christ was completely on the head of Pontius Pilate and the Romans and the "misinformation" that it was the Jews who called for his death marked the beginning of antisemitism and caused horrendous events such as the holocaust!!

I was dumbfounded at the ignorance.

Then RTE proceeded to show "One Day in Auschwitz" - a program that seems to think only Jewish people were killed in the holocaust followed by "The Pianist" about the plight of a Jew during the holocaust.

What are RTE thinking? It's the equivalent of Google's ongoing protest against Easter.

antiskeptic

Markus Antonius wrote: »

I am aware that we are currently in Passover as well as the Easter period but I could not pick my jaw off the floor today with the programs RTE were showing.

First thing I saw was "Countdown to Calvary", which seemed very apt for Easter. But no, it was an account completely skewed from a jewish perspective. Apparently, according to the Israeli historical "experts", the crucifixion of Christ was completely on the head of Pontius Pilate and the Romans and the "misinformation" that it was the Jews who called for his death marked the beginning of antisemitism and caused horrendous events such as the holocaust!!

I was dumbfounded at the ignorance.

Then RTE proceeded to show "One Day in Auschwitz" - a program that seems to think only Jewish people were killed in the holocaust followed by "The Pianist" about the plight of a Jew during the holocaust.

What are RTE thinking? It's the equivalent of Google's ongoing protest against Easter.

Seems strange alright. On the one hand the account is taken as true. But the account implicates the Jewish leaders and why they wanted Jesus' head.

Presumably they cherry pick the bits of the account they figure true and discount the rest as makey uppy of something?

Markus Antonius

antiskeptic wrote: »

Seems strange alright. On the one hand the account is taken as true. But the account implicates the Jewish leaders and why they wanted Jesus' head.

Presumably they cherry pick the bits of the account they figure true and discount the rest as makey uppy of something?

I don't know. I can't help but feel there's a rewriting of history going on from certain groups, all protected from criticism by censorship and accusations of being antisemitic. I feel it also stems from the same source as the strong anti-christian/catholic sentiments arising recently too.

looksee

Mod: Markus Antonius, there may be a discussion here, but if it is limited to your 'feelings' then it creeps close to conspiracy theories. Could you provide some links and evidence to support your argument please.

TheValeyard

Always felt Pilate took too much of the blame here. Jewish leaders wanted Jesus dead as he was a threat to the social order and their comfortable lifestyles and power base. Plates hands were tied. Execute Jesus or risk another insurrection and could be him facing an execution order from the Emperor.

johnnyskeleton

Markus Antonius wrote: »

First thing I saw was "Countdown to Calvary", which seemed very apt for Easter. But no, it was an account completely skewed from a jewish perspective. Apparently, according to the Israeli historical "experts", the crucifixion of Christ was completely on the head of Pontius Pilate and the Romans and the "misinformation" that it was the Jews who called for his death marked the beginning of antisemitism and caused horrendous events such as the holocaust!!

Well there are no contemporary historical documents to show what happened, but there is historical evidence that only a roman governor could impose crucifixion, so if Jesus was crucified, and there is no reason to think he wasnt, then it was by Pilates order.

Then RTE proceeded to show "One Day in Auschwitz" - a program that seems to think only Jewish people were killed in the holocaust followed by "The Pianist" about the plight of a Jew during the holocaust

A plurality of holocaust victims were Jewish, and Auschwitz 2 Birkenow was almost exclusively a Jewish extermination camp. So in that context focussing on Jewish victims is fair.

But your comment about the Pianist suggests to me that you dont find anything actually objectionable in all this and just dont want to watch anything that portrays Jewish people as victims. It also makes me question whether your interpretation of what was said in the first documentary is entirely accurate.

Markus Antonius

looksee wrote: »

Mod: Markus Antonius, there may be a discussion here, but if it is limited to your 'feelings' then it creeps close to conspiracy theories. Could you provide some links and evidence to support your argument please.

Of course, here's a clip from the documentary:

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

But your comment about the Pianist suggests to me that you dont find anything actually objectionable in all this and just dont want to watch anything that portrays Jewish people as victims. It also makes me question whether your interpretation of what was said in the first documentary is entirely accurate.

You are wrong and I am absolutely not going to engage with you on this topic because I know where you are trying to take it.

smacl

Markus Antonius wrote: »

You are wrong and I am absolutely not going to engage with you on this topic because I know where you are trying to take it.

Mod warning: Telling someone they are wrong and then refusing to engage based on speculation of ulterior motives is not acceptable. Either engage or do not, but do so civilly. The purpose of this forum is to engage in honest and civil debate, not to stymie it. Any responses via PM or to the feedback thread only please.

antiskeptic

Markus Antonius wrote: »

I don't know. I can't help but feel there's a rewriting of history going on from certain groups, all protected from criticism by censorship and accusations of being antisemitic. I feel it also stems from the same source as the strong anti-christian/catholic sentiments arising recently too.

I was at an evangelical event a number of years ago: a reach out to the Jewish community driven by the belief that the Jews were still God's people and that he had a special plan for them still. The meet took the form of a play in which any number of biblical stories played out. When they got to the New Testament, Jesus was more or less written out of the account! By an evangelical community so focused on the Jews as warranting molly cuddling that they were prepared to write out the Messiah. Bizarre!

Zionism is a powerful lobby. I can see why they might want to control the dialogue, given the amount of persecution undergone. This redacting of scripture is probably along those lines. But still bizarre - to use scripture to absolve the Jews responsibility in Jesus' death.

Markus Antonius

antiskeptic wrote: »

I was at an evangelical event a number of years ago: a reach out to the Jewish community driven by the belief that the Jews were still God's people and that he had a special plan for them still. The meet took the form of a play in which any number of biblical stories played out. When they got to the New Testament, Jesus was more or less written out of the account! By an evangelical community so focused on the Jews as warranting molly cuddling that they were prepared to write out the Messiah. Bizarre!

Zionism is a powerful lobby. I can see why they might want to control the dialogue, given the amount of persecution undergone. This redacting of scripture is probably along those lines. But still bizarre - to use scripture to absolve the Jews responsibility in Jesus' death.

Completely bizarre! Earlier on in the documentary linked above the same historian suggested that Christians should be thankful Judas betrayed Jesus as Christianity wouldn't have gathered momentum had he not been killed! Despite this having an element of truth to it, that this kind of incendiary language is put out on the airwaves with zero challenge just shows how one-sided the debates are. And for him then to implicate Christianity in the holocaust of Jews was absolutely outrageous.

All shown on Easter week too! :rolleyes:

looksee

Markus Antonius wrote: »

Completely bizarre! Earlier on in the documentary linked above the same historian suggested that Christians should be thankful Judas betrayed Jesus as Christianity wouldn't have gathered momentum had he not been killed! Despite this having an element of truth to it, that this kind of incendiary language is put out on the airwaves with zero challenge just shows how one-sided the debates are. And for him then to implicate Christianity in the holocaust of Jews was absolutely outrageous.

All shown on Easter week too! :rolleyes:

Are you suggesting that Jews were not persecuted by Christians for hundreds of years, culminating in the holocaust? What do you think was the reason for the holocaust?

bfa1509

looksee wrote: »

Are you suggesting that Jews were not persecuted by Christians for hundreds of years, culminating in the holocaust? What do you think was the reason for the holocaust?

There were millions of Christians killed in the holocaust is this not proof enough?

Markus Antonius

looksee wrote: »

Are you suggesting that Jews were not persecuted by Christians for hundreds of years, culminating in the holocaust? What do you think was the reason for the holocaust?

A political movement that perceived Jews as facilitators and financial beneficiaries of the downfall of Germany in the first world war coupled with a eugenics program that did not see Jews as part of an Aryan race is what culminated in the holocaust.

Do you think Christianity played a key role in the extermination of Jews? Do you believe Easter is antisemitic?

looksee

I would say that there is no doubt that the way Jews were regarded in Europe for centuries resulted in the desire of the Nazi regime to exterminate them - along with vast numbers of other people also regarded as undesirable in some way, but as far as I know Jews were the biggest single group and are the people under discussion in this thread.

Jews were persecuted as a direct result of the Christian belief that they (Jews) were responsible for the death of Christ, but His death was inevitable, part of God's plan and it is very likely that Christianity would never have 'caught on' - indeed it would have been pointless - without His death so there is a something of a circular argument. If Christ's death was necessary to save humanity, why would Christians be so impassioned about Jews being responsible for that death? If Jesus had lived out a normal lifespan, preaching and teaching, he would just have been another charismatic teacher, but unlikely the foundation of a whole religion.

I have not watched the documentary so I don't know what they proposed, but the bottom line was that Pilate actually sentenced Jesus to death, but the Jews were complicit - they were offered the choice. I don't think there is the least doubt that Christians concluded that Jews were responsible for Jesus' death and so they were persecuted thereafter.

antiskeptic

looksee wrote: »

I would say that there is no doubt that the way Jews were regarded in Europe for centuries resulted in the desire of the Nazi regime to exterminate them - along with vast numbers of other people also regarded as undesirable in some way, but as far as I know Jews were the biggest single group and are the people under discussion in this thread.

Jews were persecuted as a direct result of the Christian belief that they (Jews) were responsible for the death of Christ

Sounds like a bit of a reach to me. That the Jewish leaders incited the Roman authorities to execute Jesus is the record, but Christianity doesn't really see the Jews as other than anybody else in their position. The killers were everyman. Which was the point: everyman hates God.

, but His death was inevitable, part of God's plan and it is very likely that Christianity would never have 'caught on' - indeed it would have been pointless - without His death so there is a something of a circular argument. If Christ's death was necessary to save humanity, why would Christians be so impassioned about Jews being responsible for that death?

Indeed. I don't know where the 'impassioned' comes from. Recognition that such and such is the case doesn't mean you are impassioned about it.

I have not watched the documentary so I don't know what they proposed, but the bottom line was that Pilate actually sentenced Jesus to death, but the Jews were complicit - they were offered the choice. I don't think there is the least doubt that Christians concluded that Jews were responsible for Jesus' death and so they were persecuted thereafter.

The more likely view is that the Jews are a picture of the individual decision to reject God. God departs and you are left on your own. A picture of Hell if anything. Not that God ensured they would suffer but really, in very short order after the crucifixion, Israel ceased to exist and the Jews were scattered. I imagine the hatred had to do with the fact that they tend to do well whereever they go.

Quantum Erasure

Markus Antonius wrote: »

.

What are RTE thinking? It's the equivalent of Google's ongoing protest against Easter.

What's this about? I tried to google Google, but....

looksee

I don't think I am the one that is reaching.

smacl

Quantum Erasure wrote: »

What's this about? I tried to google Google, but....

Careful now, we don't want to break the internet... :P

Joking aside, I'd also be keen to know what "Google's ongoing protest against Easter" refers to, as I see no mention of it in any mainstream media.

antiskeptic

smacl wrote: »

Careful now, we don't want to break the internet... :P

Joking aside, I'd also be keen to know what "Google's ongoing protest against Easter" refers to, as I see no mention of it in any mainstream media.

Probably as sick of veg oil based Easter eggs as I am.

looksee

smacl wrote: »

Careful now, we don't want to break the internet... :P

Joking aside, I'd also be keen to know what "Google's ongoing protest against Easter" refers to, as I see no mention of it in any mainstream media.

If you Google 'google doodles' you will find they only do 'Spring' rather than Easter. The nearest they get to any (ie everyone else's too) religious holidays is 'Happy Holidays'.

smacl

looksee wrote: »

If you Google 'google doodles' you will find they only do 'Spring' rather than Easter. The nearest they get to any (ie everyone else's too) religious holidays is 'Happy Holidays'.

Thanks for that. Not actively celebrating religious festivals in no way constitutes protesting them in my opinion. Seems like a stretch at best.

looksee

Rather than primarily blaming Christianity for the holocaust (which is nonsense) we should look instead at post Darwin eugenic and racial theory, as well as the rise of nationalism, which had its ultimate poisonous expression in Nazism. It was not Christianity that taught that certain cohorts of humanity were racially inferior and "sub human" and thus, could be culled like animals. Rather it was Nazism, an ideology fundamentally opposed, and hostile to, Christianity. It was Nazism and racial theory, not Christianity, that underpinned the holocaust.

A group being regarded with suspicion, or being discriminated against, while terrible, is a far distance removed from being regarded as inferior, sub-human and deserving of mass murder.

We should be careful that we do not attempt (unwittingly or otherwise) to absolve Nazism of its crimes by suggesting or implying that the holocaust was somehow an inevitability because of historical discrimination. To do this would be shameful - a disgrace.

looksee wrote: »

Jews were persecuted as a direct result of the Christian belief that they (Jews) were responsible for the death of Christ, but His death was inevitable, part of God's plan and it is very likely that Christianity would never have 'caught on' - indeed it would have been pointless - without His death so there is a something of a circular argument. If Christ's death was necessary to save humanity, why would Christians be so impassioned about Jews being responsible for that death? If Jesus had lived out a normal lifespan, preaching and teaching, he would just have been another charismatic teacher, but unlikely the foundation of a whole religion.

You believe the fall of man was inevitable? (well, as you have said you are an atheist obviously you do not believe any of this, but for the purposes of conversation should I pretend you do?)

To directly address the OP, in recent days RTE have ceased broadcasting on DAB meaning that I can now no longer listen or watch any RTE content. I'm not missing anything, I suggest you follow suit.

Television is a dead or dying medium. Ask anyone under twenty what programs are on the RTE schedule and at what times and they will not be able to tell you (except possibly for the news). Not too long ago people would know chunks of the schedule off by heart. RTE is not important anymore, and have little if any influence outside of their news productions. The internet means we can watch what we want, when we want. Don't torment yourself with RTE.

smacl

Ali Billions Spectacle wrote: »

(well, as you have said you are an atheist obviously you do not believe any of this, but for the purposes of conversation should I pretend you do?)

Mod warning: Less of the condescension please. Given this thread was not tagged as [Christians only] it is open to all posters. In this context it is entirely reasonable for a non-Christian to discuss well understood and documented Christian beliefs without sharing this beliefs once they do so in a civil manner.
Any response via PM or to the feedback thread only

Markus Antonius

looksee wrote: »

Jews were persecuted as a direct result of the Christian belief that they (Jews) were responsible for the death of Christ,

I don't think there is the least doubt that Christians concluded that Jews were responsible for Jesus' death and so they were persecuted thereafter.

You can only speculate this. There is no clear evidence that this is the case.

And to say that this sentiment is what culminated in the holocaust? Are you really going to stand over that, despite everything we know about this very recent event?

looksee wrote: »

If Christ's death was necessary to save humanity, why would Christians be so impassioned about Jews being responsible for that death? If Jesus had lived out a normal lifespan, preaching and teaching, he would just have been another charismatic teacher, but unlikely the foundation of a whole religion.

What modern or historical events would indicate to you that Christians are 'impassioned' by the Jews responsibility for Christ's death? This is exactly the kind of rewriting of history I eluded to earlier in the thread.

Thinkingaboutit

Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, all Gospels likely heard in full during Holy Week or read (if stream was not possible) all indicate that Pontius Pilate wishes to release Jesus after scourging him. His death on the cross is the responsibility of the Temple authorities, who could not execute on their own authority. The Antonia Fort alongside the Temple was there to remind the Scribes and Pharisees that Rome was not to be trifled with. The Gospel of St John says that the crowd warned that Pilate would not be a friend of Caesar if Jesus was release. This recalls a form of redress where provincials could complain about a repressive governor. Pilate as a procurator angering local notables would've been a vulnerable man. Pilate had already been noted for his gauche handling of disturbances. The Gospel of St Matthew records how the mob were will to have His blood on them: 'And the whole people answering, said: His blood be upon us and our children.'

The matter is plain enough. The Temple authorities and, to a lesser extent, the crowd they whipped up, have the most responsibility. If Pilate refused, he would have had a rebellion. Remember there was large Jewish populations in a crescent in the whole Roman East. Some of the biggest rebellions were outside the Holy Land, but at this point, even with the cohorts in the Antonia Fort, Pilate would've been exposed. The Temple guards were hardly likely to help him, nor were the various local rulers, like the Herodian Tetrarchs like Herod Antipas and Philip. The Copt of at least Ethiopia hold Pilate to be a saint, but the Gospels suggest at least he was realistic, if lacking in courage.

karlitob

Markus Antonius wrote: »

I am aware that we are currently in Passover as well as the Easter period but I could not pick my jaw off the floor today with the programs RTE were showing.

First thing I saw was "Countdown to Calvary", which seemed very apt for Easter. But no, it was an account completely skewed from a jewish perspective. Apparently, according to the Israeli historical "experts", the crucifixion of Christ was completely on the head of Pontius Pilate and the Romans and the "misinformation" that it was the Jews who called for his death marked the beginning of antisemitism and caused horrendous events such as the holocaust!!

I was dumbfounded at the ignorance.

Then RTE proceeded to show "One Day in Auschwitz" - a program that seems to think only Jewish people were killed in the holocaust followed by "The Pianist" about the plight of a Jew during the holocaust.

What are RTE thinking? It's the equivalent of Google's ongoing protest against Easter.

Speaking as someone who knows nothing about all of this - I did read something somewhere that goes like this.

Pontius pilate was a fairly aggressive pain in the hoop. No way would he have ‘washed his hands’ of the incident.

Lots of people descended on the city for Passover and by all accounts things were tense. A tinder box waiting to be lit.

Your man, Hay-sus arrives on a donkey effectively quoting heresy. I’m the son of the big man upstairs etc etc. Hay-sus started quite a revolution and frightened a lot of people with his talk of the messiah. (Yes, yes I am the messiah - now **** off).

But hay-sus was a Jew, not a Christian. And there was loads of lads saying they were the son of god. And that I can turn wine into water. And really I’m a shamrock. That was not unusual. It offended the Jews but not unusual.

So pontius topped him before he started something that would wreck the place.

It was only after when the Romans adopted the Christian religion did they change the story to suit themselves. The Jews weren’t gonna change their religion, their beliefs - because of hay-sus.

His followers - the Christians built up a sizeable mass of believers. The Roman emperors noted, adopted it (Constantine I think - in a dream of all things) and it became the religion of the empire - not different to the one that preceded it. Now you can hardly start a state religion by stating that one of its highest state officers (pontius) killt the messiah!! So you say - ah twasnt me, ‘‘twas the Jews. And while you’re at Nicea we can figure out all the other stuff.


Anyway, that’s what I read. It was on the rte website, I think.

I find it better to think about all this religion as the hocus pocus it actually is and think about what would normal humans do in the context of the time.

Actually thinking there’s a god might make you think that one of the religions is right and the other is wrong. And sur that’s mad Ted.

looksee

Mod: Karlitob, while you are welcome to give the version of events as you understand it, please do so in a respectful manner, use the proper, appropriate names and omit the expletives. You also may not describe other people's beliefs as hocus pocus.

Before posting on this forum again please read the Charter.

Do not respond to this warning on thread, pm if you wish to query or discuss.

karlitob

looksee wrote: »

Mod: Karlitob, while you are welcome to give the version of events as you understand it, please do so in a respectful manner, use the proper, appropriate names and omit the expletives. You also may not describe other people's beliefs as hocus pocus.

Before posting on this forum again please read the Charter.

Do not respond to this warning on thread, pm if you wish to query or discuss.

That was a respectful manner. Our views differ.

I don’t accept being told to use ‘proper’ names for the shamrock lad.

The expletive was removed with asterisks as you well know but I suppose it asks the esoteric question - if a bear reads asterisks in a wood, is it still a expletive. You filled in the expletive - not me.

And besides - it is a fairly famous and funny movie. Clearly not funny enough.

And it is hocus pocus - obviously. Peoples ‘firmly held beliefs’ clearly outweigh my freedom of opinion. But not heavy enough to take a little ridicule.

Hotblack Desiato

Ali Billions Spectacle wrote: »

To directly address the OP, in recent days RTE have ceased broadcasting on DAB meaning that I can now no longer listen or watch any RTE content. I'm not missing anything, I suggest you follow suit.

That's rather strange, as FM has much better coverage than DAB did, all DAB radios have FM, and there's still LW 252 as well.

There is Radio Maria on Saorview

Hotblack Desiato

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

That's rather strange, as FM has much better coverage than DAB did, all DAB radios have FM, and there's still LW 252 as well.

There is Radio Maria on Saorview

I don't have Saorview. Where I am, my radio at least, received DAB fine but can't get RTE Radio 1 or 2fm clear at all on FM. I suppose if I really wanted I could get it on the laptop or phone, but I'm not missing much.