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Easter is antisemitic?
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Any discussion of the holocaust that dwells on any supposed Christian "fault" for it, and does not concentrate on the philosophy underpinning Nazism (most definitely not Christian) misses the point. I seem to be plowing a lonely furrow here. This is sad, and dangerous, particularly when the encouraged philosophy today (materialism) has more in common (note: I did not say it was the same) with that of the Nazis than with Christianity.
Many books discuss the materialist philosophy of Hitler and his opinion on Christianity. Hitler: A Study in Tyranny by Alan Bullock is good...
"Christian" mistreatment of Jews was wrong, the extermination of millions of people, including Jews, in the holocaust was obviously wrong. They are not the same, they did not happen for the same reason, the former did not inevitably lead to the latter, nor was the latter in any way dependent on the former - the holocaust could have happened without Christianity (indeed, it could not have happened if there was a genuine commitment to Christian teaching.) Historic mistreatment of Jews (while of course wrong) differed in purpose, basis and execution (literally) to the form of so called scientific racism, Aryan-ism, twisted Darwinism etc. that arose after the enlightenment. We should not conflate the two.
Christian philosophy and theology is completely contradictory to that of the Nazis which led to WW2 and the extermination of millions of people. If the laws of God were adhered to, horrors such as the holocaust could not happen. Nazism was a rejection of Christianity.0 -
"Gregory, bishop, servant of the servants of God, extends greetings and the apostolic benediction to the beloved sons in Christ, the faithful Christians, to those here now and to those in the future.
Even as it is not allowed to the Jews in their assemblies presumptuously to undertake for themselves more than that which is permitted them by law, even so they ought not to suffer any disadvantage in those [privileges] which have been granted them. [This sentence, first written by Gregory I in 598, embodies the attitude of the Church to the Jew.] Although they prefer to persist in their stubbornness rather than to recognize the words of their prophets and the mysteries of the Scriptures [which, according to the Church, foretold the coming of Jesus], and thus to arrive at a knowledge of Christian faith and salvation; nevertheless, inasmuch as they have made an appeal for our protection and help, we therefore admit their petition and offer them the shield of our protection through the clemency of Christian piety. In so doing we follow in the footsteps of our predecessors of blessed memory, the popes of Rome-Calixtus, Eugene, Alexander, Clement, Innocent, and Honorius.
This document from 1272, the first paragraph of which I have quoted, makes it very clear that the Catholic Church at that time defended the Jews. The document is directed at Christians, telling them what they may and may not do towards Jews.
It clearly reflects the argument that is being made here that people who identified as Christians, treated Jews badly to a sufficient extent that the Pope felt it necessary to speak very clearly about it. The document suggests that there had in the past (around 500 AD) been dictates by the Church hierarchy limiting Jews' rights but these had been overturned by the 9th century. However it appears that in the intervening period little progress had been made to bring Christians (the laity) round to accepting that Jews should not be persecuted.
While the Church as an institution has not approved of the persecution of Jews, the laity has maintained a strong undercurrent of disobedience to the Church teachings and continued the persecution, which was eventually a significant contributor to the holocaust.
It is nonsense to say that the Jews offended in WW1 so therefore this incited the holocaust. Its a rather nasty attempt at victim blaming. Hatred of Jews has been a staple of society for centuries, and had been stirred up since WW1. The holocaust was not specifically anti-semitic, many other groups of 'undesirables' were caught up in it, but anti-semitism was what caused Jews to be 'undesirable' and had been going on for centuries.0 -
Ali Billions Spectacle wrote: »Any discussion of the holocaust that dwells on any supposed Christian "fault" for it, and does not concentrate on the philosophy underpinning Nazism (most definitely not Christian) misses the point. I seem to be plowing a lonely furrow here. This is sad, and dangerous, particularly when the encouraged philosophy today (materialism) has more in common (note: I did not say it was the same) with that of the Nazis than with Christianity.
But why were people wiling to embrace and give effect to the hateful and vicious antisemitism which Nazism propagated? Why did it find any purchase, any acceptance, any tolerance? Germany was a long-Christianised nation, at the heart of Christendom, its history and culture profoundly shaped by Christianity. So, we have to ask ourselves, is Christianity at all relevant in an account of why Germany embraced Nazism and Nazi antisemitism?
And once you ask that question with an open mind and an open heart, it's very hard to avoid the conclusion that long-established Christian antisemitism paved the way, laid the ground,; that if Germany wasn't already antisemitic Nazi antisemitism would have found no purchase; and that, historically speaking, Christianity did play a large role in fostering the antisemitic aspect of German culture and values.
I absolutely agree with you that the Holocaust . . .Ali Billions Spectacle wrote: ». . . could not have happened if there was a genuine commitment to Christian teaching.
But the question we're asking here is no what Christianity, or Christians, should do, as an ideal matter; it's what Christianity and Christians did do, as a historical matter. And there's no doubt that, as a historical matter, Christianity and Christians did propagate antisemitism, did tolerate antisemitism, did minimise or excuse antisemitism — repeatedly, systematically, for centuries. And that played its part in shaping the Germany that had to respond to Nazism. And we know what the response was.
Sure, we can also point to non-Christian and materialist philosophies which could and did foster antisemitism. And it's hard to disentangle the effect of Christians and non-Christians here, because they were both doing the same thing. But that's the point; they were both doing the same thing. We can't really delude ourselves that Those People Over There are responsible for the outcome of the antisemitism they fostered/tolerated/propagated, but we are not.
(And, if we're honest, we were fostering and tolerating and propagating etc for much longer than the post-enlightenment crowd; antisemitism was well-established and widespread long before the enlightenment; whose going to share the blame with us for that?)0 -
Saying that a failure of people to live out their religion leads to or facilitates evil, is different from saying, or implying, that their religion as a concept, i.e. "Christianity" leads to or facilitates evil. Perhaps we need to be more specific.
In time, we will see what happens regarding the philosophy and culture of death that underpinned Nazism, in what is fast becomeing a world based and run on a materialist philosophy (in the West anyway). It has not gone away, it is still there, just not as obvious. Much neater and less obvious to kill the disabled or other undesirables in the womb (while denying that they are even human) before they are born than to send them to camps. Ditto for encouraging the old and sick to kill themselves.0 -
Ali Billions Spectacle wrote: »In time, we will see what happens regarding the philosophy and culture of death that underpinned Nazism, in what is fast becomeing a world based and run on a materialist philosophy (in the West anyway). It has not gone away, it is still there, just not as obvious. Much neater and less obvious to kill the disabled or other undesirables in the womb (while denying that they are even human) before they are born than to send them to camps. Ditto for encouraging the old and sick to kill themselves.
Suggesting on the one hand that Christianity had no part to play in the holocaust and then on the other that current societal trends in relation to abortion and euthanasia derive from a hidden Nazi influence is a rather bizarre and ridiculous attempt at deflection. If you want to talk about underlying Nazi influences with respect to abortion and euthanasia I humbly suggest you start a thread in the conspiracy theories forum.1 -
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Suggesting on the one hand that Christianity had no part to play in the holocaust and then on the other that current societal trends in relation to abortion and euthanasia derive from a hidden Nazi influence is a rather bizarre and ridiculous attempt at deflection. If you want to talk about underlying Nazi influences with respect to abortion and euthanasia I humbly suggest you start a thread in the conspiracy theories forum.Any discussion of the holocaust that dwells on any supposed Christian "fault" for it, and does not concentrate on the philosophy underpinning Nazism (most definitely not Christian) misses the point. I seem to be plowing a lonely furrow here. This is sad, and dangerous, particularly when the encouraged philosophy today (materialism) has more in common (note: I did not say it was the same) with that of the Nazis than with Christianity.
It is most disheartening that a moderator on the forum, of all people, would insult a contributor like this. I very much doubt there is anything "humble" about your suggestion - essentially a pfo - a rather dishonest turn of phrase.
What I was saying is that some of the philosophical underpinnings, from which Nazism spawned and was sustained by, remain and indeed have become more popular. They pose a threat to humanity, and the influence of this philosophy is evident in the examples I gave.
Somehow I suspect if I said antisemitism is still present (which it is) and posed great dangers to Jews (which it does) and gave examples of same you would not object so readily... Something for you to think about.0 -
Ali Billions Spectacle wrote: »Saying that a failure of people to live out their religion leads to or facilitates evil, is different from saying, or implying, that their religion as a concept, i.e. "Christianity" leads to or facilitates evil. Perhaps we need to be more specific.
I think most of the posts have been pretty specific. Possibly what needs to be established is what constitutes 'Christianity'.
If you believe that the baptised members of a church is the church then Christianity was responsible for the persecution of the Jews though AD history. If you believe that the hierarchy is the church then, Christianity was not responsible. It was just populations of entire countries that persecuted the Jews, and those populations just happened to be Christians who were acting in defiance of the hierarchy, in - as they saw it - defence of their beliefs.Saying that a failure of people to live out their religion leads to or facilitates evil
This needs to read 'can lead to' rather than 'leads to', apart from that we are making a bit of progress in accepting that people, Christian or not, are fallible, rather than trying to re-write history to cover up something we would rather ignore.
Christianity in reference to Christ's teachings in no way leads to evil, what people - and that includes clerics and church hierarchy - do with that teaching absolutely does, and has in many instances through history, including wars, invasions, suppressions, inquisitions etc.0 -
It is nonsense to say that the Jews offended in WW1 so therefore this incited the holocaust. Its a rather nasty attempt at victim blaming. Hatred of Jews has been a staple of society for centuries, and had been stirred up since WW1. The holocaust was not specifically anti-semitic, many other groups of 'undesirables' were caught up in it, but anti-semitism was what caused Jews to be 'undesirable' and had been going on for centuries.
Of course it is nonsense, but Aryan propaganda blamed them. i.e. they weren't being anti-semetic because of the Crucifixion it was because they were a minority culture that could be easily dehumanised. (Similar to how some thought of Muslims post 9/11)0 -
What I object to, by implication or otherwise, is conflation of anti Jewish persecutions by Christians (or whomever) with the specific form of antisemitism fostered by the Nazis, which was based upon and "justified" by a philosophy that was not Christian (in fact it was decidedly anti-christian). They are different, and it is important to stress this. Commentary along the lines of something like christian persecution of Jews "culminated" in the holocaust can suggest to readers a degree of inevitable linear progression from one to another.
Lets look at a current day example. Travelers are probably the most discriminated against minority in Ireland. I think it is fair to say that the majority of people in Ireland are wary of them, and perhaps even fearful. There are a whole load of reasons for this, with which we will all be familiar, but I think the general bigoted opinion would be something along the lines of "they are violent/messy/destructive/thieves etc." and that this justifies discrimination against them in a whole load of areas. Now such bigotry, in my opinion largely born of misunderstanding and a clash in culture, both now and especially in the past, is clearly immoral and wrong.
However if someone came along and said that travelers were an inferior race, not deserving of rights, life etc. and gave a supposed "objective and scientific" reasoning to demonstrate this, that they are not really human this is discrimination of an altogether different kind, played out and justified on an abstract, philosophical level. Such evil cannot stand and take up a position of dominance without the philosophical underpinning. Without the philosophy, it is 'mere' bigotry from hateful people. With the philosophy, it is an enlightened scientific position. This is the insidious nature of Nazism, it is essential to understand this. The Nazi regime was not made up of the likes of the nasty individual racist that (in the before times) could sometimes be found propping up the end of a bar sharing his unsolicited "opinions".
Now, the fact that this poison would be initially aimed at an already "unpopular" group in society may mean that it finds fertile ground, but if it did not have some new element, the aforementioned twisted, "scientific" philosophy, the leap from "I don't want a halting site down the road" to "they are an inferior race undeserving of rights or life" does not happen. In the absence of this philosophical underpinning giving "objective and scientific" reasons for such a position the middle classes are shocked at such naked hatred from the likes of the man at the bar and continue as they did before, doing things like leaving the pub if a group of travellers arrive for a drink (if the barman lets them in of course). Of course, even with such a philosophical underpinning the "respectable" would probably still be uncomfortable to hear it stated in such a way - they would speak from an objective scientific point of view of course, much more sophisticated than the racist drunk.
The point of this is that a poisonous ideology that holds that inferior undesirables should be eliminated (for supposedly objective, scientific reasons) is something different to "regular" bigotry and racism. It is "respectable". There need not be a bed of existing antipathy towards a group for this "scientific" racism to take hold (after all, the holocaust murdered many other groups aside from the Jews). This is the danger, if we go down the road of saying that Nazism happened because everyone was already a kind of bigot, so of course Nazism took hold, and sure we are not bigots today so it wouldn't happen, we are setting ourselves up for it to happen again.
We have to learn from the lessons of history. If we, as decent people, look at the racist bigot in the pub, the occasional racist taxi men (this is a cliche I know, but I think most have experienced it at some point) and think, even at the back of our minds, that this was the type and form of thinking and person that leads to horrors like the holocaust we are wrong, dangerously wrong. Such a thought is reassuring (after all, you or I would never be such an unsophisticated, hateful person as our clichéd racist man in the pub, or the taxi man). But we are not so superior, the reason why the likes of the holocaust in particular happened is that there were arguments made that persuaded sophisticated and respectable individuals like those who even have discussions like we are having, that there was a scientific, objective, elevated and enlightened philosophical basis for such evil. (of course, this can be something that largely happens in the zeitgeist rather than individual philosophical discussion). This is what is so scary about Nazism and this philosophy, it allows the 'respectable' to simultaneously look down their nose at the naked, drunken bigot, while actually being many, many times worse themselves.
It is very uncomfortable, but to understand the Nazi regime (and also others like Communist ones) we need to understand that it happened not because everyone went mad or were just bad people - bigots, but rather that there were arguments and circumstances that led to ordinary, decent people like ourselves believing, supporting and implementing such horrors. You need to ask yourself "Why would I" take part in such a regime. The disturbing reality is that you probably would have, and if you are not careful, could do so. It is very much a cop out to say or imply that we are so much better, or it was small minded bigotry, or religion paved the way, or leaders hypnotized the population. No, people like us did it, so we need to be on our guard, especially when variants of the type of philosophy the Nazism spawned from (not to mention Communist regimes!) are still around, with their siren appeal.0 -
Ali Billions Spectacle wrote: »What I object to, by implication or otherwise, is conflation of anti Jewish persecutions by Christians (or whomever) with the specific form of antisemitism fostered by the Nazis, which was based upon and "justified" by a philosophy that was not Christian (in fact it was decidedly anti-christian). They are different, and it is important to stress this. Commentary along the lines of something like christian persecution of Jews "culminated" in the holocaust can suggest to readers a degree of inevitable linear progression from one to another.
The problem is that Christianity Carried On Crusading. More recently, it carried on considering loose women as some kind of sub-human, to be cast away in "homes" for loose women.
This was all justified by a theology that was Christian. You might say that it's not Christian but you'd have to forgive an onlooker when they see little difference between murderous philosophies/theologies.
Christianity is responsible for all it's actions, for good or ill.0 -
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antiskeptic wrote: »The problem is that Christianity Carried On Crusading. More recently, it carried on considering loose women as some kind of sub-human, to be cast away in "homes" for loose women.
This was all justified by a theology that was Christian. You might say that it's not Christian but you'd have to forgive an onlooker when they see little difference between murderous philosophies/theologies.
Christianity is responsible for all it's actions, for good or ill.0 -
antiskeptic wrote: »The problem is that Christianity Carried On Crusading. More recently, it carried on considering loose women as some kind of sub-human, to be cast away in "homes" for loose women.
This was all justified by a theology that was Christian. You might say that it's not Christian but you'd have to forgive an onlooker when they see little difference between murderous philosophies/theologies.
Christianity is responsible for all it's actions, for good or ill.
I think where you have a strong majority religion in a society it becomes very difficult to distinguish the two. Do we blame religion where a society uses it to condone barbarous acts or do we blame society for perverting the religion to this end? Once religion is intrinsic to a society, I'm not sure we can make that distinction.0 -
Ali Billions Spectacle wrote: »Perhaps you might try again, and see if you can get past the first paragraph to the sections where the subtle dangers of an attitude like yours whereby you do not (or do not want to) see the nuances, and differences, of what is at play.
I watched The Mauritanian recently. It opens with a scene from a wedding in that country: celebrating people, kids running around. I fully expected the wedding to be the target of an American missile attack but the film went otherwise..
The subtle dangers of a supposedly Christian Nation supporting perma-war all around the world, where the targets are people considered as primitive, War-Allah worshipping, slanty-eyed hoards ..all out to threaten "our" way of supposedly civilized, supposedly democratic life. A Christian nation / empire which relies on the blatant rape of others resources in order to finance and fulfill the Christian American dream, not least of which a Gospel of Prosperity.
What nuances are you speaking of when you try to differentiate between Nazism or Communism? Capitalism is just as bad and walks hand in hand with Christianity (as understood by many who consider themselves Christians).0 -
While capitalism most definitely has its (major) faults, (many of which Catholic social teaching criticizes) I do not think that a claim that capitalism is "just as bad" as communism or Nazism can be sustained.0
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Ali Billions Spectacle wrote: »While capitalism most definitely has its (major) faults, (many of which Catholic social teaching criticizes) I do not think that a claim that capitalism is "just as bad" as communism or Nazism can be sustained.
What do you think will happen in the face of rapidly depleting resources? What do you think will happen when folk in poorer parts of the world are driven to cooler climates by global warming, a product of capitalism. What do you think will happen as peoples livelihoods are wiped out with the destruction of eco systems.
Well, what will happen is what does happen, except on genocidal scale. War, rape, robbery and, as we see in the Med, allowed to drown in droves because capitalism doesn't actually want to deal with the waste products of it's activity
They are considered sub-human now. And will continue to be considered so to increasing degree.
Nazism took some time to evolve from deporting Jews to eradicating them wholesale. Such is Capitalism.0 -
Hotblack Desiato wrote: »Err, Spanish Inquisition, anyone?
True, though it was not the church that instigated it, the Pope of the time - can't recall his name - approved it later though.
I still contend though that it was popular (Christian) opinion that kept the whole 'hate the Jews' thing going, I doubt that the hierarchy would have promoted the persecution if it were not such a popular attitude. None of it has to make any sense or be logical or rational, people as a generality have a tendency to follow the crowd, and love having someone to blame for pretty much anything.0 -
It is important to tread carefully when looking at the Spanish Inquisition lest you fall victim to the exaggerated propaganda of the "black legend".
However, for the purposes of our particular conversation, it is very interesting, and relevant, to note that even the 'black legend' propaganda largely downplayed, or glossed over, the reality of the (bad) treatment of Jews.0 -
antiskeptic wrote: »What do you think will happen in the face of rapidly depleting resources? What do you think will happen when folk in poorer parts of the world are driven to cooler climates by global warming, a product of capitalism. What do you think will happen as peoples livelihoods are wiped out with the destruction of eco systems.
Well, what will happen is what does happen, except on genocidal scale. War, rape, robbery and, as we see in the Med, allowed to drown in droves because capitalism doesn't actually want to deal with the waste products of it's activity
They are considered sub-human now. And will continue to be considered so to increasing degree.
Nazism took some time to evolve from deporting Jews to eradicating them wholesale. Such is Capitalism.
However I would be interested in the implications of the view you hold - if you view capitalism as "just as bad" as Nazism or Communism, how do you reconcile this with your complicity in such a system?0 -
I still contend though that it was popular (Christian) opinion that kept the whole 'hate the Jews' thing going, I doubt that the hierarchy would have promoted the persecution if it were not such a popular attitude. None of it has to make any sense or be logical or rational, people as a generality have a tendency to follow the crowd, and love having someone to blame for pretty much anything.
Take one example - the expulsion of the Jews from the United Kingdom from the 1200s to the 1700s. Was this due to the misconception that Jews called for Christ's death? No! It was because the Jewish people became increasingly unpopular due to the amount of land they owned, money lending and their wealth with respect to everyone else (they allegedly held more wealth than the King at the time (Edward I) who had to introduce new tax laws to overcome the problem). Their banishment from the kingdom came after their alleged involvement in the coin clipping scandal of 1278.
This is whats in the history books, not antisemitism because of the misconception that the Jews called for Christ's death. Of course you can speculate all you like that this was the underlying reason but it will always remain mere speculation.0 -
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What you are saying does not conflict with what I am saying, there is no single answer to this discussion, and that does not mean I am backing away from my argument. The Christian populations of Christian countries have perpetuated attitudes towards Jews that can be shown to have existed even before Christ and Christians, gathering new arguments along the way. You can read history and opinions on all sides and make your selection.
Is the discussion about whether Christian peoples actually did persecute Jews, or about the extent to which some current Christians are prepared to accept flaws in the social, human, behaviour of their Church and/or its adherents?0 -
Ali Billions Spectacle wrote: »Capitalism has been around for a long time - although I do agree that a reckoning is coming.
However I would be interested in the implications of the view you hold - if you view capitalism as "just as bad" as Nazism or Communism, how do you reconcile this with your complicity in such a system?
In the same way folk did so in those other systems. Turning a blind eye to it to one or other degree.0 -
Markus Antonius wrote: »No! It was because the Jewish people became increasingly unpopular due to the amount of land they owned
Jews were forbidden from owning land, were they not? Which is one of the reasons they pursued trades such as moneylending.© 1982 Sinclair Research Ltd
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Hotblack Desiato wrote: »Jews were forbidden from owning land, were they not? Which is one of the reasons they pursued trades such as moneylending.
They were forbidden from lending money by Edward I in the 1200s. As Christians weren't allowed make a profit from loans, the Jews made up the majority of money lenders. Apparently they used to acquire land from farmers who defaulted on their debt. This problem was exacerbated when Edward had to tax the Jews more to fund the kingdom (especially for wars). This in turn led the Jews to hike interest rates and hence acquire more land through defaulting farmers as a result. The practice of coin clipping (shaving the edges off coins and melting into silver ingots) was such a problem at the time that it sent inflation in the country through the roof - the coins were valueless. As so much money passed through Jewish hands they bore the brunt of most of the blame and were banished from the Kingdom altogether in 1290.
Interestingly enough Isaac Newton in the 1700s worked for the Royal Mint and thought of new ingenious ways of preventing coin clipping by texturing the edges in a way that it would be so obvious that nobody would dare do it.
Coincidentally enough intolerance for the Jews had faded at this point and they were allowed live and work in the United Kingdom again (One other interesting fact is that Daniel O'Connell campaigned to end discrimination towards the Jews by allowing them to wear whatever clothes they wanted as opposed to the distinctive dress they were forced to wear!)0 -
Royal finances were always a horror. There was such limited powers of taxation that at times churches could face little short of pillage, foreign merchants, Italian bankers, nobles and cities were made to provide huge and soft loans, or hit with defaults, under menaces when wars such as the Hundred Years War imposed extraordinary fiscal strain. When kings wanted money, everyone with it was a target, and the pretexts dreamed up by royal tax farmers never ending.
Oliver Cromwell let the Jews back into England, and only (only seems inappropriate but for the seventeenth century is correct) executed one priest in England for the Faith (bl John Southwood). The contrast with the horrors in Ireland are obvious enough, but the main point here is the Lord Protector derived his tolerance for Jews from his Christian faith. Cromwell's attitude, Christian Zionism (absurd though it is in mixing Christianity and a modern Jewish ideology), the protection that Imperial bishops tried to give Jews from renegade elements of the First Crusade, their long and tolerated existence in the utterly Catholic Commonwealth of Poland, are just a few examples of how Christianity has shown an attitude of friendship to Jews.0
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