Cost of refurbishment of 70s house

am_zarathustra

Hi all,

We are currently bidding on a 70s house and trying to work out how much we need to leave over (how high we can go and still be able to do work required). Structurally it's fine (although we will obviously get a engineer to check this if we do get it). So what time wondering is what do we need left over to make it habitable.

1) it will need a rewire. I'm just assuming based on the fusebox ect that they are the original or close enough -8000

2) removing 2 stud walls, one just taken out ( half a wall really 2m long). The other slightly altered and extended by 1m - 2000

3) downstairs bathroom, complete refurb - not 100% on plumbing but if it's not reasonably new I'd be inclined to put a new tank etc and maybe a full replumb. Definitely need new rads and 2 moved. This is a lot of work so would 12-15000 get it done? Would plastering be included? Assuming not would 3000 do it?

4) attic and internal cavity insulation - 3000 (with grant)

5) flooring with insulating layer (this could vary, looks like wood underneath so there could be issues with air flow) but 4000 (only downstairs, approx 80sqmt)

6) kitchen - 8000-10000 (need to look at what's there, it's oak, it's probably ok but not great but may not be something we have to do immediately)

7) double patio doors put in -2000

8) small block work and windows/door for patio - 3000 (it's half built and roofed)

I can see around 45 grand of work easy. That would be fine, assuming a 10 grand contingency so 55 to be safe, that's really all we would have after buying the house.

Anything I'm glaringly missing? We have enough furniture to get by and can paint and tile ourselves and are pretty handy in general so if there's an obvious place to cut back we would be happy to diy some grunt work.

Any even general advice would be welcome. Lukey enough to know a lot of people who've had work recently (at that age) so I have a lot of numbers and recommendations thankfully so I'm hoping if we can leave the house vacent for two months after closing and let the trades in to just go at it we might have something mostly done? Is this a bit naive?

athlone573

am_zarathustra wrote: »

Hi all,

We are currently bidding on a 70s house and trying to work out how much we need to leave over (how high we can go and still be able to do work required). Structurally it's fine (although we will obviously get a engineer to check this if we do get it). So what time wondering is what do we need left over to make it habitable.

1) it will need a rewire. I'm just assuming based on the fusebox ect that they are the original or close enough -8000

2) removing 2 stud walls, one just taken out ( half a wall really 2m long). The other slightly altered and extended by 1m - 2000

3) downstairs bathroom, complete refurb - not 100% on plumbing but if it's not reasonably new I'd be inclined to put a new tank etc and maybe a full replumb. Definitely need new rads and 2 moved. This is a lot of work so would 12-15000 get it done? Would plastering be included? Assuming not would 3000 do it?

4) attic and internal cavity insulation - 3000 (with grant)

5) flooring with insulating layer (this could vary, looks like wood underneath so there could be issues with air flow) but 4000 (only downstairs, approx 80sqmt)

6) kitchen - 8000-10000 (need to look at what's there, it's oak, it's probably ok but not great but may not be something we have to do immediately)

7) double patio doors put in -2000

8) small block work and windows/door for patio - 3000 (it's half built and roofed)

I can see around 45 grand of work easy. That would be fine, assuming a 10 grand contingency so 55 to be safe, that's really all we would have after buying the house.

Anything I'm glaringly missing? We have enough furniture to get by and can paint and tile ourselves and are pretty handy in general so if there's an obvious place to cut back we would be happy to diy some grunt work.

Any even general advice would be welcome. Lukey enough to know a lot of people who've had work recently (at that age) so I have a lot of numbers and recommendations thankfully so I'm hoping if we can leave the house vacent for two months after closing and let the trades in to just go at it we might have something mostly done? Is this a bit naive?

Estimates for flooring/insulation , plumbing look maybe on the low side. What about a new boiler etc. Insulation should be considered holistically based on BER survey, maybe including external insulation.

Going down that road it may be wise to look at fitting solar for which there may be grants available.

You haven't mentioned windows, if they're 50 years old they could probably do with being replaced with DG or TG units though not essential.

Basically what I'm saying is if you price up the bare minimum now, you could be looking another big chunk again in 5 10 years to do the rest (windows and external insulation).

If you're dead set on this house I'd suggest getting a QS to do up up to date costs, which seem to be high at the moment.

2 months is also a bit tight in my view.

am_zarathustra

Thanks for that.

We were told the boiler is relatively new (waiting on information on that for sure though) and the windows are double glazed upvc and 10 years old. Not ideal but ok for now.

I'd love external insulation but it's just not in the budget for now. What would you opinion be of dry lining with insulation board given the walls will have to be exposed anyway? I know it would be more expensive but not the same cost as external. My guess if from the road it wouldn't be allowed on the front anyway.

I'll definitely be getting a QS but we have a certain amount of money so I suppose I'm just trying to get a feel for how much we need to leave in cash to actually do that work. A new kitchen wouldnt be an immediate necessity so I can see why a new boiler would maybe be a smarter investment at the start.

athlone573

I'm not an expert by any means. If you look in related forums such as Construction and Planning you'll find endless threads on the merits of external vs internal insulation and on how likely it is that drylining will cause condensation issues. I've drylined (I had to, basically, as the original plaster was falling off) and it was an improvement, but not as cosy as external insulation.

MicktheMan

am_zarathustra wrote: »

I'd love external insulation but it's just not in the budget for now. What would you opinion be of dry lining with insulation board given the walls will have to be exposed anyway? I know it would be more expensive but not the same cost as external. My guess if from the road it wouldn't be allowed on the front anyway.

My advice is to insulate the cavity (assuming the cavity is suitable) and do not do the IWI. Instead, make achieving decent airtightness a goal for the whole project and not to forget about appropriate ventilation.

am_zarathustra

MicktheMan wrote: »

My advice is to insulate the cavity (assuming the cavity is suitable) and do not do the IWI. Instead, make achieving decent airtightness a goal for the whole project and not to forget about appropriate ventilation.

This has been the advice a few people have given, I think the way these houses work the dew point often ends up behind the board, last thing you need really. I was looking at a few of the blown cavity insulation beads and the technology is a lot more advanced than I was aware off so it's definitely the way to go if possible. From the age and what we would find out from the neighbouring houses it's a straightforward cavity so might be the best option.

Given a family history of particular illnesses, air quality would be very important. I was looking at demand controlled ventilation, seems like a great option to keep the house warm and dry without have it open all the time. Anyone have experience of this? I can't actually find anyone who's gone with it!

Mad_maxx

rewiring budget is too low , budget for at least 15 k

am_zarathustra

Mad_maxx wrote: »

rewiring budget is too low , budget for at least 15 k

Anyone I asked came in at between 6 and 8 thousand. Most of the sites I've looked at had similar. God I hope I'm not missing something obvious? A friend had a slightly smaller house done recently (about 30mtsq less and right in the middle of dublin) and in very bad condition for 4000.

BryanF

am_zarathustra wrote: »

This has been the advice a few people have given, I think the way these houses work the dew point often ends up behind the board, last thing you need really. I was looking at a few of the blown cavity insulation beads and the technology is a lot more advanced than I was aware off so it's definitely the way to go if possible. From the age and what we would find out from the neighbouring houses it's a straightforward cavity so might be the best option.

Given a family history of particular illnesses, air quality would be very important. I was looking at demand controlled ventilation, seems like a great option to keep the house warm and dry without have it open all the time. Anyone have experience of this? I can't actually find anyone who's gone with it!

Is there a cavity? And is it empty?

I have demand controlled mechanical ventilation, can fault it except I didn’t place the extract flue very well.

Feets

Your budget sounds like it covers most..is the rewire necessary? 70's houses had draughty wooden front doors, u may possibly need a new one to keep warm...also a new lick of paint maybe. But u seem to have covered the important parts.

Mad_maxx

am_zarathustra wrote: »

Anyone I asked came in at between 6 and 8 thousand. Most of the sites I've looked at had similar. God I hope I'm not missing something obvious? A friend had a slightly smaller house done recently (about 30mtsq less and right in the middle of dublin) and in very bad condition for 4000.

Ah that's good, sorry if I alarmed you, I live in the greediest county in Ireland myself so I sometimes overestimate these things

am_zarathustra

BryanF wrote: »

Is there a cavity? And is it empty?

I have demand controlled mechanical ventilation, can fault it except I didn’t place the extract flue very well.

As far as we know. But that's the word of an estate agent so who knows. We will get an engineer's report and a QS the minute we can, the rating indicated yes too. If not we are looking at a more expensive proposition.

The DCMV seems like a fantastic addition if we have a little extra money left, air quality is so important. Did you notice a big difference yourself?

am_zarathustra

Feets wrote: »

Your budget sounds like it covers most..is the rewire necessary? 70's houses had draughty wooden front doors, u may possibly need a new one to keep warm...also a new lick of paint maybe. But u seem to have covered the important parts.

I'm not 100% sure on the rewire. The sockets and fixtures looks very new, I'd imagine the same time as a small extension was put in so I think 12 years. The circuit board looks original, and definitely needs to be replaced, I wouldn't sleep well in the house with it. I've prices doors, the palladio composite, lovely doors. I think your right on replacing them, no point if that's where the heat is escaping. Theres a shoddy enough pvc one at the back too. Would be the guta of 3 grand but I've an extra job going in the summer I should have that extra. Makes a huge difference to the look of the house too, the neighbours all have good, solid doors. I think getting the front looking a bit better would ingratiate us to them too, the standard of peoples gardens is very high, the house is a bit of an eyesore at the moment compared to it's neighbour's.

We will paint, put up coving and down skirting, panelling ourselves. Be handy enough that way and have access to a full workshop but we will do that paycheque to pay cheque. I actually love painting houses.

Sesame

We're a few steps ahead of you on a 70s house similar work involved.
I got quoted over 2k for two glass doors so I'd guess your patio doors will be more than that.
We did some rewiring, added power points, new board, moved kitchen to another room and the full price has been less than 5k for electrical work although there's still the 2nd fix on kitchen to do.
A few unexpected costs for us included drainage and a few mistakes in online ordering. Not being able to buy fixtures in person has been a challenge.
We have had a few huge quotes but have always found a cheaper option. The main pain point has been slowness and reliability in getting tradespeople to get started.
Covid reasons have prevented some bigger companies from even sending someone to quote, the stove fitter, kitchen company etc. So we ended up moving in and while here knocked partitions ourselves, painted, stripped bathrooms. We've saved a packet doing this although not the most comfortable to live in.

Car99

If you get a building firm in to do all the work they may do it in the two month time frame . If organising contractors and materials yourself not a hope you'll get it done in two months. There must be a module in trade apprenticeship training about hiw to lie and make promises you have no intention of keeping to with a straight face when it comes to start and finish dates .

am_zarathustra

Sesame wrote: »

We're a few steps ahead of you on a 70s house similar work involved.
I got quoted over 2k for two glass doors so I'd guess your patio doors will be more than that.
We did some rewiring, added power points, new board, moved kitchen to another room and the full price has been less than 5k for electrical work although there's still the 2nd fix on kitchen to do.
A few unexpected costs for us included drainage and a few mistakes in online ordering. Not being able to buy fixtures in person has been a challenge.
We have had a few huge quotes but have always found a cheaper option. The main pain point has been slowness and reliability in getting tradespeople to get started.
Covid reasons have prevented some bigger companies from even sending someone to quote, the stove fitter, kitchen company etc. So we ended up moving in and while here knocked partitions ourselves, painted, stripped bathrooms. We've saved a packet doing this although not the most comfortable to live in.

Interesting, thanks for that. I have a few people who'd be in the business, not direct to me so I'd be looking to mess around with evenings etc but enough contact that they will pick up the phone so hopefully that will help, I'd be hoping for 2/3 months to get it to a standard to move in, as in most walls, electrics and plumbing done but not completely finished. How did you find the workload of taking down walls or stripping bathrooms?

am_zarathustra

Car99 wrote: »

If you get a building firm in to do all the work they may do it in the two month time frame . If organising contractors and materials yourself not a hope you'll get it done in two months. There must be a module in trade apprenticeship training about hiw to lie and make promises you have no intention of keeping to with a straight face when it comes to start and finish dates .

So true, I'm definitely going to price it. I'm lucky enough that two friends literally did this recently and used their own contacts and work contacts they will pass on, always very reliable for them thankfully. I'm hoping an empty house where were aren't precious about the walls will entice too but there does seem to be a terrible shortage of trades. If it take a month more so be it but I'd love it to be livable with electrics and plumbing done in two.

Rulmeq

I don't see windows in your list, you're definitely going to need to replace them, we got triple glazing on all windows, and replaced the front door for €5k, but that was a few years ago. We got the external insulation, but didn't do the underfloor, it's kind of our biggest regret (we wanted concrete floors, but the contractor we had didn't want the hassle).
You might also be surprised by just how much you can spend on a new kitchen (admittedly, you can also do well for your budget, but just something to keep in mind )
We also replaced the boiler, the one that was there was "only" 7 years old, but even so it was not maintained properly, and wasn't a fraction as efficient as the new one (Although you should probably consider one of those new heat pumps if you can afford it instead)

am_zarathustra

Rulmeq wrote: »

I don't see windows in your list, you're definitely going to need to replace them, we got triple glazing on all windows, and replaced the front door for €5k, but that was a few years ago. We got the external insulation, but didn't do the underfloor, it's kind of our biggest regret (we wanted concrete floors, but the contractor we had didn't want the hassle).
You might also be surprised by just how much you can spend on a new kitchen (admittedly, you can also do well for your budget, but just something to keep in mind )
We also replaced the boiler, the one that was there was "only" 7 years old, but even so it was not maintained properly, and wasn't a fraction as efficient as the new one (Although you should probably consider one of those new heat pumps if you can afford it instead)

I think we'd have to go external insulation to get the air tightness needed for the heat pump, we won't have the money for that for a couple of years but definitely on the list. Windows are 10 years old and double glazed so not the worst but will need to be done at some stage!

Sesame

I'm glad we moved in at the stage we did as I suppose looking at jobs that needed doing and realising a lot we could do ourselves has saved us some money. We pulled down a partition and fireplace and got a plasterer in to finish it without too much hassle. It's also been good to work out insulation as I thought we'd need to pump some into walls or attic but it's surprisingly warmer and good at retaining heat than I expected for a 70s bungalow. It has a C ber. We'll make do with the oil boiler. A couple of radiators needed replacing but I don't expect to need to insulate any more than a small amount under the window sills and filling a few gaps. We could feel where the breeze was coming in when sitting down in the evenings.
Stripping the bathroom was easy and capping off. Did the same with the kitchen ourselves. Currently have no kitchen! But getting by while we wait for the installers after this lockdown. Its not too bad as bathroom is finished and can use that.
Our windows are around 10 years old too and boiler about the same.

MicktheMan

am_zarathustra wrote: »

I think we'd have to go external insulation to get the air tightness needed for the heat pump, we won't have the money for that for a couple of years but definitely on the list. Windows are 10 years old and double glazed so not the worst but will need to be done at some stage!

I really don't know where the idea that EWI influences air tightness comes from (as I've seen it said a lot recently) but this is simply incorrect. EWI has little, if anything, to do with airtightness. Anyone who tells you different clearly has little understanding on air tightness.

listermint

Mad_maxx wrote: »

rewiring budget is too low , budget for at least 15 k

15 grand for a rewire. Eeehhhh

am_zarathustra

MicktheMan wrote: »

I really don't know where the idea that EWI influences air tightness comes from (as I've seen it said a lot recently) but this is simply incorrect. EWI has little, if anything, to do with airtightness. Anyone who tells you different clearly has little understanding on air tightness.

If you replace windows at the same time does it help? I just assumed based on what I've read that is can improve it but actually I'm not sure why other than you'd probably do around widows and get new finishes.

athlone573

The idea of doing windows and external insulation at the same time isn't to do with airtightness as such.
Generally speaking, there is not much point putting a lot of money into wall insulation if the heat is just going to leak out the windows instead (and vice versa). There are also some details on window sills and reveals that would be messy to do separately.

I appreciate the OP has said this is not on the cards for now. In-cavity fill seems like a decent option but for a lot of older houses (9 inch blocks or mass concrete) it can't be done.

am_zarathustra

athlone573 wrote: »

The idea of doing windows and external insulation at the same time isn't to do with airtightness as such.
Generally speaking, there is not much point putting a lot of money into wall insulation if the heat is just going to leak out the windows instead (and vice versa). There are also some details on window sills and reveals that would be messy to do separately.

I appreciate the OP has said this is not on the cards for now. In-cavity fill seems like a decent option but for a lot of older houses (9 inch blocks or mass concrete) it can't be done.

Thanks for that. My guess is there is a 100mm cavity based on plans for similar builds but until I can get an engineer and QS in who knows. Floors are wooden and the attic is badly sealed and not really insulated so the plan is to do cavity, floor and roof first, try and seal all thebwindossbas best we can, new door and then maybe see about the garage. I think the garage might be a real problem the more I look at it. It's small bit internal and to the front (you'd stugggle to get a single car in). Still has a garage door that's completely unsealdd and a flat roof. I think some other things will have to wait until that's dealt with, off say an awful lot of heat is being lost through there.

I spent a few hours investigating sit tightness (thanks again for pointing me more in that direction). I'm definitely going to look into that more. If you are getting someone in to do insulation etc sould they also do this. Good to know what to be watching for around finish with the electrics and plumbing

Woodie.ie

The dew point should not be a problem if you are pumping the cavity. I would pump the cavity and pin the polystyrene backed plastered directly to the exterior walls in the rooms. Ive done this many times and even 60mm boards will make a big difference to heat retention. The cills will have to be recovered with light ply. If you are not pumping the cavity then create a sealed void between the wall and boards with battens that will retain warm air. I would also do a pressure test on existing heating system.

am_zarathustra

Woodie.ie wrote: »

The dew point should not be a problem if you are pumping the cavity. I would pump the cavity and pin the polystyrene backed plastered directly to the exterior walls in the rooms. Ive done this many times and even 60mm boards will make a big difference to heat retention. The cills will have to be recovered with light ply. If you are not pumping the cavity then create a sealed void between the wall and boards with battens that will retain warm air. I would also do a pressure test on existing heating system.

Thanks for this really helpful, would you use a vapour layer on the side then of this?

So far the indication is that there is a cavity everywhere except in the bizarre front garage bit, that will need more drylinging and insulation than the rest but will really only be a utility and a bit of an extended bathroom.

Car99

If I was you I would live in the house as is until next summer. See what the house is like , what needs work , what doesnt. What need changing to make the house flow better for your needs . What areas needs more light , what do you want to keep, linking the house and garden spaces ( 70's bungalows would have little or no thought to the thing ppl value in a home today). Incorporating smart tech. Take your time and plan, know what you want , get the trades person you want and get a architect/designer to have a look.
Buying a house , getting work and done and moving is seems too rushed to me when there is no need to rush.

am_zarathustra

Car99 wrote: »

If I was you I would live in the house as is until next summer. See what the house is like , what needs work , what doesnt. What need changing to make the house flow better for your needs . What areas needs more light , what do you want to keep, linking the house and garden spaces ( 70's bungalows would have little or no thought to the thing ppl value in a home today). Incorporating smart tech. Take your time and plan, know what you want , get the trades person you want and get a architect/designer to have a look.
Buying a house , getting work and done and moving is seems too rushed to me when there is no need to rush.

It's E2 rated so I think for out own sake we need to do the insulation anyway. A makeshift shower using a bit of the garage was hastiky put in too so it's a bit mad. The actual house itself is strangely the exact layout we would like other than this funny corner, it's pretty much perfect otherwise. I think your right about not moving things too much until we are in but electric and plumbing 'could' be big jobs depending and it would be definitely good to have them out of the way before we move in. Underfloor insulation too. It's close enough to where we rent that were could go back and forth for a couple of months anyway but WFH in a building site is not an option for my partner.

I think having all the advice here I'd be going for a good check on electrics and plumbing (anything big here done straight away, especially if it needs wall and floor access), cavity, floor and roof insulation, and airtightness survery then and any quick fixes done and maybe a new condenser boiler then see where we are. And the garage.......it's bald cinder block and I can see under the garage door!!!!!

The house is livable but only barely. I think with any structural changes you are dead right though, we'd really have to see how it functions before we would know for sure. I'm so tempted to get walls shifted upstairs but could be a case of moving them back if we go to quickly

Sesame

Agreed, and you'd get a great idea of where the light is at different times of the day, that will affect heating, how the house flows, do you walk miles from one room to another etc.
Also, if you get a new boiler, ensure its future proof and adequate for the potential increase in output.
That shower in the garage might be very useful for a mud room if your into gardening!

am_zarathustra

Sesame wrote: »

Agreed, and you'd get a great idea of where the light is at different times of the day, that will affect heating, how the house flows, do you walk miles from one room to another etc.
Also, if you get a new boiler, ensure its future proof and adequate for the potential increase in output.
That shower in the garage might be very useful for a mud room if your into gardening!

The garden is why we are trying to buy it. It's ridiculous, the type they only had in suburban areas in the 70s and 80s. You could keep sheep though we should ingratiate ourselves to the neighbors before we go down that road.

We are going to keep the downstairs bathroom if it all works out, build a really big space, so handy for gardening or sport when your able to go straight in. It's very handy, I'm always jealous of houses that have them