The annual ASTI Easter strike threat

khalessi

lulublue22 wrote: »

On another note what gets me with the public is the total lack of support re children with AN - during jan / feb there was the usual think of the children - children with AN are regressing etc etc but when it came allocation of SET for next year no not a peep. There are children waiting years for badly needed assessments no not a peep. There are children who can’t access school places next Sep due to the limited spaces in special schools no not a peep. The removal of OT and speech and language support from special schools to a community based model will have a serious impact on children in special schools - no not a peep. All of these have been reported on over the last few months yet very little outrage or comment on here. The public - unless you have a child affected by the above issues or you work in Education ( and that includes the unions believe it or not ) don’t give a fiddlers. So I personally aren’t too bothered re public opinion.

All if this along with the IT budget halved not a peep.

Treppen

Alberto Big Ape wrote: »

this is the problem with teachers, the majority of them have never entered the real world and left the school enviornment

Majority of teacher bashers on here still haven't left the school yard either.

Ted_YNWA

Alberto Big Ape wrote: »

this is the problem with teachers, the majority of them have never entered the real world and left the school enviornment

Treppen wrote: »

Majority of teacher bashers on here still haven't left the school yard either.

Mod

And neither group can appear to act civilly either.


Knock it off everyone, or the Mods will be the ones giving detention.

facehugger99

khalessi wrote: »

Funny you mention echochambers but always the same cohort slagging off teachers on various threads on boards sad really

No need for anyone to engage in teacher-bashing.


They're doing a great job of it themselves.

Vestiapx

Give them their vaccines but no vaccine passport till every man woman and child who wants the shot has has the shot.

Beasty

Given 20% or so of the population may be refusing to take the vaccine, that may to some extent undermine any claims for "special cases". What would the teaching unions be saying if the vaccine was mandatory before teachers can return in September I wonder?

MAULBROOK

I work as a service engineer for a Lift company, we work in nursing homes, all major hospitals public/private in the state, university's, all major tech company's, shopping centers and schools. We are the largest company doing this work in Ireland. Cant work from home and we have never been offered a jab and not from the lack of asking. We are super spreaders in vans. We have never stopped working and will continue to do so.
Striking in our view is not an option.

Treppen

MAULBROOK wrote: »

I work as a service engineer for a Lift company, we work in nursing homes, all major hospitals public/private in the state, university's, all major tech company's, shopping centers and schools. We are the largest company doing this work in Ireland. Cant work from home and we have never been offered a jab and not from the lack of asking. We are super spreaders in vans. We have never stopped working and will continue to do so.
Striking in our view is not an option.

So if you had a union you would be hoping they would relay your concerns to the department of health?

Kivaro

Treppen wrote: »

So if you had a union you would be hoping they would relay your concerns to the department of health?

You are completely missing the point.

yabadabado

Teacher unions are demanding priority with the threat of industrial action.
Big difference compared to relaying concerns.

Kivaro

yabadabado wrote: »

Teacher unions are demanding priority .

They are constantly "demanding".
Today they are demanding immediate negotiations with the Department of Education; otherwise they are going to ................
They always seem to be threatening us or using the children of Ireland as some form of negotiating tool. The teachers unions are now a disgrace and I hope that teachers stand up against this type of unacceptable behaviour.

bfa1509

I wish they would just give them the vaccine now. Nothing get's up a teacher's nose more than not being able to complain.

MAULBROOK

Treppen wrote: »

So if you had a union you would be hoping they would relay your concerns to the department of health?

We do have a union, no help. Department of health and all hospitals we work in have been asked, no joy.
I managed to get on a list at a nursing home we work at but the HSE said no at the last min.
We just take care as best we can and keep on moving on.
Now i need to be clear our company is not forcing ANYONE to work in a unsafe area and we can walk away at any time without any repercussions.

Beasty

Beasty wrote: »

Given 20% or so of the population may be refusing to take the vaccine, that may to some extent undermine any claims for "special cases". What would the teaching unions be saying if the vaccine was mandatory before teachers can return in September I wonder?

What a ridiculous post. 20% or so may be refusing to take the vaccine? Who is floating any idea of the vaccine being mandatory? Where are you getting that garbage from?

Newbie20

facehugger99 wrote: »

The main issue is they spend all their time in an echo chamber staffroom moaning to each other about how bad they have it.

They are clueless as to how they are perceived by the rest of society with their long holidays and cushy hours.

Only a representative body of an insular and tone deaf profession could have come out with today’s nonsense.

They will get nothing from it.

They might as well have handed the Government a loaded gun and asked to be shot.

“Long holidays and cushy hours”
The jealousy is strong here

roverjoyce

What happens when a teacher doesn't want to take the vaccine.
Will they be sacked or put on unpaid leave?
Will the other teachers strike then on unsafe working conditions?

Bass Reeves

Treppen wrote: »

So if you had a union you would be hoping they would relay your concerns to the department of health?

Yes and unions may relay concerns. Government job is to make policy. NIAC made a recommendation, government decided to accept that recommendation. It amazes me the way some public service union's decide that they should make policy not government.

Are teachers that much more at risk than people working in supermarkets. I expect that meat factory workers are higher risk and when you consider that supermarkets workers have longer working weeks and no two weeks holidays at Easter or 8-12 weeks during the summer should they not be a higher priority in the he short term than teachers

This is the reason NIAC made the age based recommendation to Government. The risk to other workers in some situations is higher because of there age. At the very start of this pandemic the WHO made one critical point. Speed was more important than perfection. With this disease decisions have to be made fast it not a committee bases senario.

There is also the problem with making the rollout too complicated. It slows down the process. Speed is our friend. Older teachers will be vaccinated with there age cohort. As well the faster we vaccinate the lower the risk to everybody as every single person getting vaccinated gets us closed to herd Immunity

Pussyhands

Be right back wrote: »

I heard a rep from one of their unions saying that teachers are exhausted. How dare he. They have had so much time off, working over Zoom and still not happy.

I have heard teachers saying how they're working harder than ever before, how they had to spend all their day until 4 o clock on a laptop....I'm like hundreds of thousands do that in an office everyday starting at 8am until 5 or 6pm and they're not complaining!

Richard tea

Pussyhands wrote: »

I have heard teachers saying how they're working harder than ever before, how they had to spend all their day until 4 o clock on a laptop....I'm like hundreds of thousands do that in an office everyday starting at 8am until 5 or 6pm and they're not complaining!

Not even joking. Read the other thread and you will find teachers stating that they logged on at 9 am and didn't log off until 10pm. I know from experience non of my kids 40 minute class lasted more than 30 minutes. 15 - 20 mins was the norm.

Necro

facehugger99 wrote: »

No need for anyone to engage in teacher-bashing.


They're doing a great job of it themselves.

I wouldn't go that far, I don't particularly think it's that helpful having a rattle at individual teachers. I would say a lot of them would likely be horrified at the language used by the union heads today.

The idea that a union can make demands at a time of a global pandemic is absolutely disgraceful, just another example of a public sector union having an air of self entitlement and not being able to read the room.

Frankly if I was a member I would be airing my concerns about the wording of the statements made by the unions today, the union heads clearly do not live in the real world based on their comments.

Beasty

Deleted User wrote: »

What a ridiculous post. 20% or so may be refusing to take the vaccine? Who is floating any idea of the vaccine being mandatory? Where are you getting that garbage from?

I never said it would be mandatory. Please re-read my post.

I was speculating over what the attitude of teachers unions be if (not when) all teachers (with obvious exceptions where it may be inappropriate) were required to have the vaccine. I suspect the Unions would be up in arms at such a suggestion.

rtron

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Afaik the government promised to vaccinate teachers etc as a priority to get em.back working



And promptly doubled back on that promise without consultation

i couldnt fault em for being pissed off over this......be a fairly weak union,that wouldnt be willing to walk out,if its been double-crossed

The only rational I can see behind the Uturn is it would be harder for the government to implement another full lock down in the event of a fourth wave. People would complain if schools had to close with vaccinated teachers.

History Queen

Beasty wrote: »

I never said it would be mandatory. Please re-read my post.

I was speculating over what the attitude of teachers unions be if (not when) all teachers (with obvious exceptions where it may be inappropriate) were required to have the vaccine. I suspect the Unions would be up in arms at such a suggestion.

Couldn't see it happening considering the fact that most of the population of schools will remain unvaccinated in September. I don't think there's plans to vaccinate children here yet?

Locotastic

rtron wrote: »

The only rational I can see behind the Uturn is it would be harder for the government to implement another full lock down in the event of a fourth wave. People would complain if schools had to close with vaccinated teachers.

I don't think the teachers unions really thought of that one. Really has backfired badly on them, might soften their cough for any DEMANDS in the near future.

The teachers unions might realise eventually that in their ever so predictable behaviour they continue to play into the governments hands, every single time.

It'd be funny if it wasn't for all the students who've had to watch the whole very public s**tshow from the very beginning.

Treppen

MAULBROOK wrote: »

We do have a union, no help. Department of health and all hospitals we work in have been asked, no joy.
I managed to get on a list at a nursing home we work at but the HSE said no at the last min.
We just take care as best we can and keep on moving on.
Now i need to be clear our company is not forcing ANYONE to work in a unsafe area and we can walk away at any time without any repercussions.

Well then you need to lobby your Union properly... Or threaten to walk away ( especially if there are no repercussions)

This is the thing that I don't get, people moaning about how nothing is done for them so therefore everyone should have it just as bad.

Loads of people lost their jobs.... So teachers should lose theirs.

Loads of various people should get vaccinated... So teachers shouldn't.

Loads of people have low holidays... So teachers shouldn't.

Loads of people don't get pay raises.... So teachers shouldn't.

Loads of people don't have pensions.... So teachers shouldn't.

The thing about teachers is that they ARE the Union, moreso than other ineffective unions who's members will just suck it up and hope someone else will look after them.

TBH I don't support the mandate for strike for faster vaccination, BUT I do support a very large teaching cohort who are in much more serious circumstances than myself, and I'll support their right to bring the issues up and let everyone vote on it.

markodaly

Treppen wrote: »

Well then you need to lobby your Union properly... Or threaten to walk away ( especially if there are no repercussions)

This is the thing that I don't get, people moaning about how nothing is done for them so therefore everyone should have it just as bad.

Loads of people lost their jobs.... So teachers should lose theirs.

Loads of various people should get vaccinated... So teachers shouldn't.

Loads of people have low holidays... So teachers shouldn't.

Loads of people don't get pay raises.... So teachers shouldn't.

Loads of people don't have pensions.... So teachers shouldn't.

The thing about teachers is that they ARE the Union, moreso than other ineffective unions who's members will just suck it up and hope someone else will look after them.

TBH I don't support the mandate for strike for faster vaccination, BUT I do support a very large teaching cohort who are in much more serious circumstances than myself, and I'll support their right to bring the issues up and let everyone vote on it.

I think the point is, teachers by and large are in a very privileged position, with good jobs and a decent salary. Yet by their continuous antics and their Unions committing a PR hari-kari, they come off as aloof, spoilt, entitled and basically like children.

There is a reason why the vast majority of the public has such a negative view on them.

khalessi

Necro wrote: »

I wouldn't go that far, I don't particularly think it's that helpful having a rattle at individual teachers. I would say a lot of them would likely be horrified at the language used by the union heads today.

The idea that a union can make demands at a time of a global pandemic is absolutely disgraceful, just another example of a public sector union having an air of self entitlement and not being able to read the room.

Frankly if I was a member I would be airing my concerns about the wording of the statements made by the unions today, the union heads clearly do not live in the real world based on their comments.

The idea that a government can ignore concerns put to them for months about safety in schools, ignore international studies, when pointed to studies from Singapore US and India for example and respond by saying the HSE only read European studies (reported in Irish Independant last Oct) and then ignore studies from UK and data from UK also disgraceful.

Masks recommended in primary schools by WHO in August. Dr Mike Ryan on Sarach McInerney show discussing how children from 10 years up transmit disease as easily as adults. Ignore research into Irish schools showing that Covid levels higher then thought and not trace cases that occur in schools for spread. Multiple ancedotal reports in papers and social media that is is practically impossible to have case put down as school transmission, most recorded as community transmission.

The fact that 6000+ teachers were put on Covid leave in Sept and Oct closely followed by the alteration of the definition of Close Contacts in schools in October, resulting in different definitions of close contacts in schools to other workplaces. They only traced back 2 days when at the time they went back a week in other cc situations. Discounted teachers as close contacs if they wore a mask but only in schools elsewhere a person was a cc regardless of mask wearing. Not telling teachers of case of covid in class, not isolating pods or rarely were cc identified in classes.

Then to wait until the 23rd December (holidays) to cut the cleaning budget by 40% in the middle of a pandemic and knowing B117 was taking a hold is shocking. This has not been recinded. The response to B117, or lack of, which is recognised as more transmissible or contagious by WHO CDA BMJ and Micheal even remarked on the gravity of it in his last speech, was to tell teachers to open and close windows.

Prof Nolan on Newstalk few weeks ago, stating there were no new safety mitigations in schools for term 2, and when questioned by a shocked sounding host about how schools would manage B117 he replied, He had hope and optimism that previous measures would work.

Last time I looked hope and optimism was not the normal method used to fight viruses or used in infection control, but then it is a while since I put on a nurses uniform, maybe it is a new method:rolleyes:.

It also is sad to see when teachers asking for safety measures, only to be ridiculed by the Dept or on various social media sites, when teachers are just trying to protect children and staff. I am still not sure why that is wrong and deserving of teacher bashing.

When HCWS tried to get improved ppe they were ignored at first, hospitals asked the public to send in goggles etc, unions were brought into it because safety measures were not adequate it took a fight but they eventually were given improved ppe flown in from China in April 21st IIRC. The HCWs have been stellar. Even retail moved quicker to protect staff with perspex at tills, restricting numbers in stores, social distancing, gloves, mechanical ventilation and they need to be vaccinated quickly.

Teachers asking for safety measures and have been mocked as whinging etc, even by the people whose children we educate and care for. Bizarre how you can mock call us names and then give us your kids to educate. Home schooling is an option for you.

ONS in UK shows teachers second to HCWS to develop Long Covid. 25% of the staff off work, that would cripple us here. We dont have the subs in primary, cant get the staff. Constantly asked for Irish data but difficult to get an FOI a acquaintance got was blacked out almost 100%. Listening to Joe Duffy today he says we are talking about Covid not Long Covid, to get the second you have to have had the first, which can involve various neurological, psychiatric, cardiac and respiratory reprecussions.

Typical response from teacher basher is how many teachers died? Why does a death have to be the proof? They then claim to be related to teachers, yet this is how you speak of them and treat them, and allow others to, wow!!

When schools were closed in March 2020 schools were not considered frontline. There was no warnings to the schools this was going to happen. We heard it on the radio on same day we closed, no chance to prepare and did our best to move online. Some schools did great others awful. The second time around it was better for most, but not all.

Back in March, April, and May 2020, HCWs were desperate for childcare to continue to work. Taoiseach Leo and Min for Health Simon promised HCW childcare, but never lived up to that promise. Suddenly the government decide schools are frontline or essential depending on which Minister was speaking about them and the context. MM loved rolling out those phrases but they didnt equal safety measures. Even Norma made a statement about schools mentioning for childminding purposes but didnt mention education. We are now again not essential or frontline.

So far teachers have done 4 terms over two school years in pandemic, online and in school, they were promised to be prioritised in top 30% after old and vunerable, the schools were reopened then the rug was pulled from under teachers and SNAs. We are facing into a third school year.

All teachers want is reassurance that they will be vaccinated by September. Seeing the balls up with the roll out so far you can be certain not all teachers will be vaccinated by September. Great if they are, but when the Min of Health cant deal in numbers but phrases such as a little bit there and a little more here, it does not inspire confidence. WHen he does deal with numbers he makes grandiose statement amount numbers to be vaccinated which havent been reached.

Hence today's statement. It might be written badly but was has been listed above is only the tip of the iceberg when it comes to schools and dealing with Dept of Education and Health since March 20th 2020. And if what I heard about the face to face meetings is true I can understand their exasperation and hard tactics.

22 EU countries and US prioritising teachers not on a whim but scientific evidence but Irish government know better.

The above will be torn apart by the usual cohort who live to teacher bash, but it is a partial explanation of what has been going on since March 2020.

markodaly

khalessi wrote: »

The idea that a government can ignore concerns put to them for months about safety in schools, ignore international studies, when pointed to studies from Singapore US and India for example and respond by saying the HSE only read European studies (reported in Irish Independant last Oct) and then ignore studies from UK and data from UK also disgraceful.

Masks recommended in primary schools by WHO in August. Dr Mike Ryan on Sarach McInerney show discussing how children from 10 years up transmit disease as easily as adults. Ignore research into Irish schools showing that Covid levels higher then thought and not trace cases that occur in schools for spread. Multiple ancedotal reports in papers and social media that is is practically impossible to have case put down as school transmission, most recorded as community transmission.

The fact that 6000+ teachers were put on Covid leave in Sept and Oct closely followed by the alteration of the definition of Close Contacts in schools in October, resulting in different definitions of close contacts in schools to other workplaces. They only traced back 2 days when at the time they went back a week in other cc situations. Discounted teachers as close contacs if they wore a mask but only in schools elsewhere a person was a cc regardless of mask wearing. Not telling teachers of case of covid in class, not isolating pods or rarely were cc identified in classes.

Then to wait until the 23rd December (holidays) to cut the cleaning budget by 40% in the middle of a pandemic and knowing B117 was taking a hold is shocking. This has not been recinded. The response to B117, or lack of, which is recognised as more transmissible or contagious by WHO CDA BMJ and Micheal even remarked on the gravity of it in his last speech, was to tell teachers to open and close windows.

Prof Nolan on Newstalk few weeks ago, stating there were no new safety mitigations in schools for term 2, and when questioned by a shocked sounding host about how schools would manage B117 he replied, He had hope and optimism that previous measures would work.

Last time I looked hope and optimism was not the normal method used to fight viruses or used in infection control, but then it is a while since I put on a nurses uniform, maybe it is a new method:rolleyes:.

It also is sad to see when teachers asking for safety measures, only to be ridiculed by the Dept or on various social media sites, when teachers are just trying to protect children and staff. I am still not sure why that is wrong and deserving of teacher bashing.

When HCWS tried to get improved ppe they were ignored at first, hospitals asked the public to send in goggles etc, unions were brought into it because safety measures were not adequate it took a fight but they eventually were given improved ppe flown in from China in April 21st IIRC. The HCWs have been stellar. Even retail moved quicker to protect staff with perspex at tills, restricting numbers in stores, social distancing, gloves, mechanical ventilation and they need to be vaccinated quickly.

Teachers asking for safety measures and have been mocked as whinging etc, even by the people whose children we educate and care for. Bizarre how you can mock call us names and then give us your kids to educate. Home schooling is an option for you.

ONS in UK shows teachers second to HCWS to develop Long Covid. 25% of the staff off work, that would cripple us here. We dont have the subs in primary, cant get the staff. Constantly asked for Irish data but difficult to get an FOI a acquaintance got was blacked out almost 100%. Listening to Joe Duffy today he says we are talking about Covid not Long Covid, to get the second you have to have had the first, which can involve various neurological, psychiatric, cardiac and respiratory reprecussions.

Typical response from teacher basher is how many teachers died? Why does a death have to be the proof? They then claim to be related to teachers, yet this is how you speak of them and treat them, and allow others to, wow!!

When schools were closed in March 2020 schools were not considered frontline. There was no warnings to the schools this was going to happen. We heard it on the radio on same day we closed, no chance to prepare and did our best to move online. Some schools did great others awful. The second time around it was better for most, but not all.

Back in March, April, and May 2020, HCWs were desperate for childcare to continue to work. Taoiseach Leo and Min for Health Simon promised HCW childcare, but never lived up to that promise. Suddenly the government decide schools are frontline or essential depending on which Minister was speaking about them and the context. MM loved rolling out those phrases but they didnt equal safety measures. Even Norma made a statement about schools mentioning for childminding purposes but didnt mention education. We are now again not essential or frontline.

So far teachers have done 4 terms over two school years in pandemic, online and in school, they were promised to be prioritised in top 30% after old and vunerable, the schools were reopened then the rug was pulled from under teachers and SNAs. We are facing into a third school year.

All teachers want is reassurance that they will be vaccinated by September. Seeing the balls up with the roll out so far you can be certain not all teachers will be vaccinated by September. Great if they are, but when the Min of Health cant deal in numbers but phrases such as a little bit there and a little more here, it does not inspire confidence. WHen he does deal with numbers he makes grandiose statement amount numbers to be vaccinated which havent been reached.

Hence today's statement. It might be written badly but was has been listed above is only the tip of the iceberg when it comes to schools and dealing with Dept of Education and Health since March 20th 2020. And if what I heard about the face to face meetings is true I can understand their exasperation and hard tactics.

22 EU countries and US prioritising teachers not on a whim but scientific evidence but Irish government know better.

The above will be torn apart by the usual cohort who live to teacher bash, but it is a partial explanation of what has been going on since March 2020.

This post is a good example of the 'poor me' attitude and the tone-deaf nature we see from the Teaching Unions.

Every sector in society could probably write something similar about how the government didn't do this or didn't do that, but most in fairness have got on with it, as everyone knows it's a difficult time for everyone.

Yet, we have had the teacher Unions banging on and on for a year about every little thing, from the LC to the reopening of schools, to again reopening of schools. It's like trying to herd cats with teachers. Afaik, Irish schools have been closed most of any EU education system. Why is that? Genuine question?

I have also heard many myths from the Unions the past 24 hours. The favourite one about 'biggest class sizes in Europe' being one and they will keep quiet about a new study that suggests that class sizes have zero impact on educational outcomes. Funny that.

As I have said before, teachers are trained to teach. THAT.IS.ALL
They are not some self-appointed experts in anything and everything else, yet they think they are. Too much time talking crap in the staff room, making grand plans and pronouncements maybe.

I realise not all teachers are like that, but a few loud ones get all the air and that is what we are seeing at the moment.

Take for example, have the ASTI reprimanded any of the teachers who got the vaccines early? If not, why not?

Necro

Not going to quote your post khal because of the length but you could easily make an argument like you have made there for factory workers or Gardai as just two examples who should be prioritised ahead of anyone else as well.

And we come back to the overarching point which is that the distribution of the vaccine on the age criteria is the fastest method of getting needles in arms. It doesn't discriminate or cause lobby groups (or shouldn't), it gets the vaccine to the people who are much more likely to die from the virus first, which is the correct method and should have been used in the first place.

A union railing against this and trying to change a national policy smacks of complete disregard for other vulnerable groups and that's the problem I have with it.

I don't particularly care who gets the vaccine next I just want it done in as efficient and organised way as is possible and using simply a person's DOB cuts away all of the other issues and goes straight to the very heart of the matter.

Bass Reeves

Khalessi and Treppen
Again neither will I quote your posts. In your posts one thing comes accross. This is that teachers through there union's should have final say on everything to do with teaching. Government job is to define policy. One of the big ways to fight this pandemic is to make decisions fast. All decision will not be right but you fix any mistakes and move on.

One thing I was reading was the unions have decided that this strike threat is more or less if teachers are not vaccinated by the start of the new school year. I had to laugh all this bad press for teachers when it is likely that all adults will be vaccinated by September. I imagine the Government and HSE will target any teachers on late summer and prioritise them for vaccination if for any reason there is major hiccups in the vaccination rollout.

Treppen there is limits to any budget this impacts every sector Government makes decisions on how much it can afford to spend in that sector whether it is Education, Health, Social Housing or or twiddle winks for that matter.

The problem with teachers and there union's is they are constantly banging the drum and the nuclear option strike is always threatened. Very few other union's can use there ability to cause mayhem to make what are often unreasonable demands regarding there pay and work conditions.

IMO more and more teacher's are becoming balanced individuals, with a chip on both shoulder's. The school staff room and now school chat rooms on what ever app is used leads to teachers having insulated views on what way the world should work. It has lead to a self centered attitude without regard to what the government and the economy can and will concede to.