The annual ASTI Easter strike threat

silver2020

It seems that a substantial number of teachers have let the unions know that they are unhappy with what seems to be the total destruction of the phenomenal amount of goodwill teachers had built up in the past year.

Watch for some back pedaling by the unions as they don't think they have the support to carry the motion even in the ASTI.

Looks like the union management got this one very badly wrong.

Locotastic

Bass Reeves wrote: »

IMO more and more teacher's are becoming balanced individuals, with a chip on both shoulder's. The school staff room and now school chat rooms on what ever app is used leads to teachers having insulated views on what way the world should work. It has lead to a self centered attitude without regard to what the government and the economy can and will concede to.

It also leaves them with no concept of how things work outside of insulated public sector roles and a lack of understanding as to why people would not support their demands.

Accusations of teacher bashing if you so much as disagree with them.

I'd have a problem with any other entire sector looking to skip the line but I haven't really heard of anyone else trying this with the threat of striking, especially after spending most of the past year 'working from home'.

BanditLuke

markodaly wrote: »

I think the point is, teachers by and large are in a very privileged position, with good jobs and a decent salary. Yet by their continuous antics and their Unions committing a PR hari-kari, they come off as aloof, spoilt, entitled and basically like children.

There is a reason why the vast majority of the public has such a negative view on them.

You've asked the vast majority of the public im guessing?

markodaly

markodaly wrote: »

I think the point is, teachers by and large are in a very privileged position, with good jobs and a decent salary. Yet by their continuous antics and their Unions committing a PR hari-kari, they come off as aloof, spoilt, entitled and basically like children.

There is a reason why the vast majority of the public has such a negative view on them.

Source? I mean "vast majority" is an exceptional claim and needs proof.

by and large the attitude towards teachers, here as everywhere, is positive. It was difficult to find information on this but here is a poll I did find but it was commissioned by teachers. Nevertheless it is broadly positive. I think people distinguish between their own teachers and the unions, who are shooting themselves in the foot.

Locotastic

Locotastic wrote: »

I'd have a problem with any other entire sector looking to skip the line but I haven't really heard of anyone else trying this with the threat of striking, especially after spending most of the past year 'working from home'.

But they were working from home, as were everybody who worked from home I'd hope. Maybe back in the bowels of the civil service little work was done but teachers were in the frontline of the visible work from homers, and did in fact handle online courses pretty well by all accounts ( all accounts being two siblings of mine who have children). Pity then they are spending time on this.

Beasty

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Treppen

markodaly wrote: »

I think the point is, teachers by and large are in a very privileged position, with good jobs and a decent salary..

Says who?
What's your own job, education, pension and salary?

60k for a professional after 30 years isn't exactly Jeff Bezos is it!

markodaly wrote: »

Yet by their continuous antics and their Unions committing a PR hari-kari, they come off as aloof, spoilt, entitled and basically like children.

If name calling is your go-to justification then your position must be pretty week.

markodaly wrote: »

There is a reason why the vast majority of the public has such a negative view on them.

It's because your " vast majority" of naysayers think they are experts in teaching because they went to school, or have one neighbor/relative who is a teacher whom they dislike.

Seaandwind

Quin_Dub wrote: »

As I understand it , not a huge amount.

Under the old plan they'd have been starting in mid-May and finished in July or so.

Some will still get vaccinated on that schedule but the youngest ones , the 21-25 year olds will now probably be getting done in the August timeframe.

In short - Under the old plan , very few Teachers would have been fully vaccinated before the end of the school year regardless.

In all likelihood a not dissimilar number of teachers will be fully vaccinated by the end of term under the new plan , but it will be age based rather than "all teachers".

Based on current projections though , everyone over 18 will be vaccinated by September anyway so the threat of striking then for "Vaccine Priority" is utterly disingenuous.

My understanding is that if you get the Astra Zeneca vaccine there is up to 12 week waiting period between vaccinations? So if we start vaccinating younger cohorts in August, anyone who gets AZ will not be fully vaccinated for quite a time.

Honestly, I don’t think many teachers expect in any form to be vaccinated before older and vulnerable but I for one do expect to be vaccinated fully for September. I really do not think this is going to be the case with the speed and organisation of the current roll out.

Asking to be put into cohort 9 which is crowded settings is not a ridiculous demand. If I work with up to 200 students and in contact with many staff, changing classroom 9 times a day - how is this not considered a crowded environment. Some classrooms do not have windows in modern schools.

Striking now would be a nightmare. My students are my priority and I am already anxious about the time left in which to cover material. I for one will be offering extra time in the evenings (not looking for praise!) as we did not get adequate extensions to coursework. (1 week extra to complete course work on site when we were off site after Christmas). I will vote no to striking now but I would consider it if we are facing a September of similar conditions. If anyone could see the reality of a working school - I imagine people would think differently.

Ultimately everyone- guards, retail, SNAs, carers, bus drivers, students - everyone deserves to be safe. Teachers are among that list - not above anyone - being a teacher does not make a person unworthy. But there has been more than enough time to try and get it right before the next school term.

noodler

[Deleted User] wrote: »

But they were working from home, as were everybody who worked from home I'd hope. Maybe back in the bowels of the civil service little work was done but teachers were in the frontline of the visible work from homers, and did in fact handle online courses pretty well by all accounts ( all accounts being two siblings of mine who have children). Pity then they are spending time on this.

Teachers working from home.....yeah there seems to be extremely mixed experiences on that from students and parents.

Bubbaclaus

Treppen wrote: »

60k for a professional after 30 years isn't exactly Jeff Bezos is it!

Not sure why you are comparing teachers to a successful entrepreneur like Bezos, but just an FYI that his salary is 81k USD per year. Pretty similar to 60k Euro actually.

Beasty

There has clearly been a lot of reaction to these developments. I've heard many teachers criticising the actions of the unions. We have a lot of teachers contributing to this thread and I wondered how many actually support their union's position of threatening strike action in the middle of the biggest crisis the world has seen since the second World War?

yabadabado

Treppen wrote: »

Says who?
What's your own job, education, pension and salary?

60k for a professional after 30 years isn't exactly Jeff Bezos is it!

Anyone on a full time contract is on more than 60k with 30 years service and takes less than 20 years to reach 60k .

Alex86Eire

Beasty wrote: »

There has clearly been a lot of reaction to these developments. I've heard many teachers criticising the actions of the unions. We have a lot of teachers contributing to this thread and I wondered how many actually support their union's position of threatening strike action in the middle of the biggest crisis the world has seen since the second World War?

I have contacted them anyway about the ridiculousness of this situation. I'm sure many other teachers who are equally unhappy with the union's stance have done the same.
I can't imagine they have much support at all so this will die down quite soon.

Str8outtaWuhan

Beasty wrote: »

There has clearly been a lot of reaction to these developments. I've heard many teachers criticising the actions of the unions. We have a lot of teachers contributing to this thread and I wondered how many actually support their union's position of threatening strike action in the middle of the biggest crisis the world has seen since the second World War?

You might want to ask the public health doctors who wanted strike action in December over pay!!!

lulublue22

Beasty wrote: »

There has clearly been a lot of reaction to these developments. I've heard many teachers criticising the actions of the unions. We have a lot of teachers contributing to this thread and I wondered how many actually support their union's position of threatening strike action in the middle of the biggest crisis the world has seen since the second World War?

I think there has been an element of jumping the gun to be honest - media is whipping up a storm re strike etc Unions have mentioned industrial action up to and including a strike. Which is fairly standard procedure for any union. There hasn’t even been a ballot yet.
Personally I’m not bothered re position on vacc. list. It seems that age vacc will be a faster quicker rollout which seems to make the point moot anyhow.
Professionally I would like to see teachers vacc for the new school year - I would not like to see rolling class and or school closures continue. Children’s education has been impacted enough and if we as a society are serious about children’s social , emotional and academic welfare then we need to ensure that we keep the schools open and to my mind the best way to do that is by vacc all school staff.

Alex86Eire

Alex86Eire wrote: »

I have contacted them anyway about the ridiculousness of this situation. I'm sure many other teachers who are equally unhappy with the union's stance have done the same.
I can't imagine they have much support at all so this will die down quite soon.

I really hope so! I'm in a different union, frontline staff and they have already voiced their displeasure at these changes.
If the teachers were to get anywhere with their complaint, you would have others jumping on the bandwagon.

Lillyfae

lulublue22 wrote: »

I think there has been an element of jumping the gun to be honest - media is whipping up a storm re strike etc Unions have mentioned industrial action up to and including a strike. Which is fairly standard procedure for any union. There hasn’t even been a ballot yet.
Personally I’m not bothered re position on vacc. list. It seems that age vacc will be a faster quicker rollout.
Professionally I would like to see teachers vacc for the new school year - I would not like to see rolling class and or school closures continue. Children’s education has been impacted enough and if we as a society are serious about children’s social , emotional and academic welfare then we need to ensure that we keep the schools open and to my mind the best way to do that is by vacc all school staff.

Beasty asked if you support the unions position?

noodler

noodler wrote: »

Teachers working from home.....yeah there seems to be extremely mixed experiences on that from students and parents.

In my limited experience of two siblings they were very happy.

Hats off to the teachers for trying.

blanch152

Bass Reeves wrote: »

Khalessi and Treppen
Again neither will I quote your posts. In your posts one thing comes accross. This is that teachers through there union's should have final say on everything to do with teaching. Government job is to define policy. One of the big ways to fight this pandemic is to make decisions fast. All decision will not be right but you fix any mistakes and move on.

One thing I was reading was the unions have decided that this strike threat is more or less if teachers are not vaccinated by the start of the new school year. I had to laugh all this bad press for teachers when it is likely that all adults will be vaccinated by September. I imagine the Government and HSE will target any teachers on late summer and prioritise them for vaccination if for any reason there is major hiccups in the vaccination rollout.

Treppen there is limits to any budget this impacts every sector Government makes decisions on how much it can afford to spend in that sector whether it is Education, Health, Social Housing or or twiddle winks for that matter.

The problem with teachers and there union's is they are constantly banging the drum and the nuclear option strike is always threatened. Very few other union's can use there ability to cause mayhem to make what are often unreasonable demands regarding there pay and work conditions.

IMO more and more teacher's are becoming balanced individuals, with a chip on both shoulder's. The school staff room and now school chat rooms on what ever app is used leads to teachers having insulated views on what way the world should work. It has lead to a self centered attitude without regard to what the government and the economy can and will concede to.

We have seen institutions like the Catholic Church (child abuse scandals), Hospital Consultants (Cervical check, other negligence), Politics (Moriarty and other Tribunals), the Gardai (McCabe) and the judiciary come under scrutiny in recent years.

Education (and to a similar extent the wider health service) has largely escaped that scrutiny and has not had to reflect and reform in the way that other sections of society have had to do. There have been reforms in the way that we do politics, in the appointment of judges, in the Gardai, in the Church, but teachers and schools have escaped this reform to date. The current issue is focussing the public mind on the priviliged position that teachers feel they occupy in way that it has never been focussed before. It will be seen in future years as a big own goal by the teacher unions.

Lillyfae

blanch152 wrote: »

We have seen institutions like the Catholic Church (child abuse scandals), Hospital Consultants (Cervical check, other negligence), Politics (Moriarty and other Tribunals), the Gardai (McCabe) and the judiciary come under scrutiny in recent years.

Education (and to a similar extent the wider health service) has largely escaped that scrutiny and has not had to reflect and reform in the way that other sections of society have had to do. There have been reforms in the way that we do politics, in the appointment of judges, in the Gardai, in the Church, but teachers and schools have escaped this reform to date. The current issue is focussing the public mind on the priviliged position that teachers feel they occupy in way that it has never been focussed before. It will be seen in future years as a big own goal by the teacher unions.

I'm not sure why there would be a tribunal for schools? Has something happened that would warrant one?

The education sector definitely needs a bump as in terms of funding, I definitely believe that. Facilities are massively sub par in a lot schools and this needs to be improved as a matter of urgency. The DoE needs an overhaul, and I suspect the Boards of Management need to be restructured and held more accountable too. It's just whenever the unions start talking about education spending, their only concern is "pay restoration". Of course that is going to be their priority for their members, but that's not funding education, that's funding PS wages. There can be no conflation between the two imo. A wage increase/ restoration will make not one iota of difference to education, and that needs to be called out.

Quin_Dub

Seaandwind wrote: »

My understanding is that if you get the Astra Zeneca vaccine there is up to 12 week waiting period between vaccinations? So if we start vaccinating younger cohorts in August, anyone who gets AZ will not be fully vaccinated for quite a time.

Honestly, I don’t think many teachers expect in any form to be vaccinated before older and vulnerable but I for one do expect to be vaccinated fully for September. I really do not think this is going to be the case with the speed and organisation of the current roll out.

Asking to be put into cohort 9 which is crowded settings is not a ridiculous demand. If I work with up to 200 students and in contact with many staff, changing classroom 9 times a day - how is this not considered a crowded environment. Some classrooms do not have windows in modern schools.

Striking now would be a nightmare. My students are my priority and I am already anxious about the time left in which to cover material. I for one will be offering extra time in the evenings (not looking for praise!) as we did not get adequate extensions to coursework. (1 week extra to complete course work on site when we were off site after Christmas). I will vote no to striking now but I would consider it if we are facing a September of similar conditions. If anyone could see the reality of a working school - I imagine people would think differently.

Ultimately everyone- guards, retail, SNAs, carers, bus drivers, students - everyone deserves to be safe. Teachers are among that list - not above anyone - being a teacher does not make a person unworthy. But there has been more than enough time to try and get it right before the next school term.

Younger people will be getting the J&J vaccine which is a one and done dose so if they are getting that in the August timeframe , they are fully covered.

Based on the current projections regarding supply and the run rate of vaccinations , everyone over 21 will be fully vaccinated by September at the very latest and probably everyone over 18 .


As I've said already , I understand the argument from Teachers , but it's an argument that could equally be made by multiple other groups across the country - Gardai, Front line Shop staff , Bus Drivers , Taxi Drivers etc. so either all those possible groups get prioritised or none of them do.

And as has also been pointed out multiple times , Speed is the critical element here above all else.

Wasting time, and it would be wasted time trying to work out who meets what variety of criteria to prioritise one trade/profession over another is simply time that we (and the economy) do not have.

Reverse order by age and just 100% focus on volume and ultimately everybody is happy before the start of the new school year and even more importantly before we move back into the higher risk winter months.

Str8outtaWuhan

Quin_Dub wrote: »

Younger people will be getting the J&J vaccine which is a one and done dose so if they are getting that in the August timeframe , they are fully covered.

Based on the current projections regarding supply and the run rate of vaccinations , everyone over 21 will be fully vaccinated by September at the very latest and probably everyone over 18 .


As I've said already , I understand the argument from Teachers , but it's an argument that could equally be made by multiple other groups across the country - Gardai, Front line Shop staff , Bus Drivers , Taxi Drivers etc. so either all those possible groups get prioritised or none of them do.

And as has also been pointed out multiple times , Speed is the critical element here above all else.

Wasting time, and it would be wasted time trying to work out who meets what variety of criteria to prioritise one trade/profession over another is simply time that we (and the economy) do not have.

Reverse order by age and just 100% focus on volume and ultimately everybody is happy before the start of the new school year and even more importantly before we move back into the higher risk winter months.

Any teacher vaccinated after 1st of june with the astra wont be fully vaccinated by the time school begins in late august, assuming a 12 week gap between jabs. so unless the gov make all teachers get the j&j, you could have a large cohort of teachers not fully vaccinated come new term.

awec

Str8outtaWuhan wrote: »

Any teacher vaccinated after 1st of june with the astra wont be fully vaccinated by the time school begins in late august, assuming a 12 week gap between jabs. so unless the gov make all teachers get the j&j, you could have a large cohort of teachers not fully vaccinated come new term.

Ok. And?

Once we have the vulnerable vaccinated this is of no real consequence. This is exactly why it makes more sense to do it by age to get it out as quickly as possible, as that means we have the vulnerable vaccinated as quickly as possible and therefore don't need to worry about who lives with who or who lives beside who or who meets who.

Seaandwind

awec wrote: »

Ok. And?

Once we have the vulnerable vaccinated this is of no real consequence.

Sure why vaccinate anyone not considered vulnerable so?!

Str8outtaWuhan

awec wrote: »

Ok. And?

Once we have the vulnerable vaccinated this is of no real consequence. This is exactly why it makes more sense to do it by age to get it out as quickly as possible, as that means we have the vulnerable vaccinated as quickly as possible and therefore don't need to worry about who lives with who or who lives beside who or who meets who.

that is a very broad church and the definition seems to have changed multiple times since covid arrived, vunerable used to mean old folks homes in march 2020, now it means chubby 40 year olds with a bit of diabetes

awec

Seaandwind wrote: »

Sure why vaccinate anyone not considered vulnerable so?!

Don't be silly. Everyone will be vaccinated, we just need to ensure that vulnerable people (which the data shows is determined mostly by age) are done as quickly as possible.

It's all about risk now. The main concern is to reduce hospitalisations. Speed means getting the vulnerable vaccinated.

Stopping young-ish, healthy, low risk people getting covid is not the primary goal. Nobody cares if someone gets covid and has to take 2 weeks off work, so long as they don't pass it on to someone who has a high chance of ending up in hospital.

awec

Str8outtaWuhan wrote: »

that is a very broad church and the definition seems to have changed multiple times since covid arrived, vunerable used to mean old folks homes in march 2020, now it means chubby 40 year olds with a bit of diabetes

Yes, Covid is new, our understanding of it changes over time.

We know more in 2021 than we did in March 2020. Who would have thought?

.42.

Congratulations to the Teachers Unions for exceptional work



But I expect that a majority of teachers where also encouraging the Unions direction and ran for the hills when they discovering that they didn't have the support of the public leaving the Unions to face the music

Teachers

Locotastic

Deleted User wrote: »

In my limited experience of two siblings they were very happy.

Hats off to the teachers for trying.

In my experience last year was a joke, this year better but still a lot of room for improvement - just my own experience.

blanch152

Lillyfae wrote: »

I'm not sure why there would be a tribunal for schools? Has something happened that would warrant one?

The education sector definitely needs a bump as in terms of funding, I definitely believe that. Facilities are massively sub par in a lot schools and this needs to be improved as a matter of urgency. The DoE needs an overhaul, and I suspect the Boards of Management need to be restructured and held more accountable too. It's just whenever the unions start talking about education spending, their only concern is "pay restoration". Of course that is going to be their priority for their members, but that's not funding education, that's funding PS wages. There can be no conflation between the two imo. A wage increase/ restoration will make not one iota of difference to education, and that needs to be called out.

The education sector needs more than a bump in funding, it needs wholescale reform. The OECD have been warning us about this for years.

Junior Cert reform is delayed, but the more pressing need for Leaving Cert reform is colossal. This crisis has shown us that the Leaving Cert is not fit for purpose. These reforms will require huge reforms in teaching that the unions are certainly not prepared for, and that many teachers will not be able for.

Further reforms in the length of the working year and working week as well as calendar reform to reduce the long summer break are needed to bring Irish schools in line with European norms. The time wasted in June on exams needs to be reclaimed.