The annual ASTI Easter strike threat

Quin_Dub

Str8outtaWuhan wrote: »

Any teacher vaccinated after 1st of june with the astra wont be fully vaccinated by the time school begins in late august, assuming a 12 week gap between jabs. so unless the gov make all teachers get the j&j, you could have a large cohort of teachers not fully vaccinated come new term.

awec wrote: »

Ok. And?

Once we have the vulnerable vaccinated this is of no real consequence.

I'd tend to agree - You have ~60%+ coverage after the first dose of the AZ vaccine. Combine that with the already reduced risk based on the age profile of someone getting their 1st dose in June and the overall risk profile is very low indeed.

The Pfizer and Moderna 2nd dose intervals are 21 and 28 days respectively along with the single dose J&J vaccine.

So assuming a mix of age profiles and vaccine types used across a typical group of teachers in a school , the overall risk profile once everyone has had at least one dose (and quite a few fully complete) is negligible.

If we go by age - Everyone is back to work and society is largely operating normally by August/September.

However If we try to manage all of these multiple "priority" cohorts , by that same August/September timeframe we're still operating under significant restrictions with some businesses still closed or operating under very limiting rules and we won't have everyone vaccinated before we get to the high risk winter months from Mid-October onward.

lulublue22

.42. wrote: »

Congratulations to the Teachers Unions for exceptional work



But I expect that a majority of teachers where also encouraging the Unions direction and ran for the hills when they discovering that they didn't have the support of the public leaving the Unions to face the music

Teachers

I really really don’t get the bizarre focus on public support . When has any industrial action particularly that of teachers ever had public support ? Public support for industrial action is a fallacy - people don’t support that which impacts or they perceive to impact on their day to day life. The general public don’t give a **** once it’s not impacting on them. Seriously what clap happy universe do certain posters live in.

Lillyfae

blanch152 wrote: »

The education sector needs more than a bump in funding, it needs wholescale reform. The OECD have been warning us about this for years.

Junior Cert reform is delayed, but the more pressing need for Leaving Cert reform is colossal. This crisis has shown us that the Leaving Cert is not fit for purpose. These reforms will require huge reforms in teaching that the unions are certainly not prepared for, and that many teachers will not be able for.

Further reforms in the length of the working year and working week as well as calendar reform to reduce the long summer break are needed to bring Irish schools in line with European norms. The time wasted in June on exams needs to be reclaimed.

Absolutely agree that reform is needed but a tribunal?

There needs to be less pandering to the unions overall when it comes to decision making and reform. Definitely take consultation if constructive but reform is down to the Department at the end of the day.

Seaandwind

awec wrote: »

Don't be silly. Everyone will be vaccinated, we just need to ensure that vulnerable people (which the data shows is determined mostly by age) are done as quickly as possible.

It's all about risk now. The main concern is to reduce hospitalisations. Speed means getting the vulnerable vaccinated.

Stopping young-ish, healthy, low risk people getting covid is not the primary goal. Nobody cares if someone gets covid and has to take 2 weeks off work, so long as they don't pass it on to someone who has a high chance of ending up in hospital.

Well if you have a large cohort of teachers not vaccinated and schools have Covid, I am pretty sure people will care that their children are not being taught for two weeks if subs aren’t available - considering all the disruptions to education so far.

After two school years affected by Covid and the amount of work to be done with certain year groups I think every possible avenue should be looked at so that this third school year has a clear run with as little disruption as possible. Education is important, we need to be back in a safe environment- they have had absolutely more than enough time to sort this.

blanch152

lulublue22 wrote: »

I really really don’t get the bizarre focus on public support . When has any industrial action particularly that of teachers ever had public support ? Public support for industrial action is a fallacy - people don’t support that which impacts or they perceive to impact on their day to day life. The general public don’t give a **** once it’s not impacting on them. Seriously what clap happy universe do certain posters live in.

On the contrary, public opinion matters very much.

Most industrial action pivots on it. Ultimately, whether the public blames the government or the unions for the particular action decides the outcome.

awec

lulublue22 wrote: »

I really really don’t get the bizarre focus on public support . When has any industrial action particularly that of teachers ever had public support ? Public support for industrial action is a fallacy - people don’t support that which impacts or they perceive to impact on their day to day life. The general public don’t give a **** once it’s not impacting on them. Seriously what clap happy universe do certain posters live in.

Of course public support is relevant as it determines how willing politicians are to cave to union demands.

teachinggal123

Treppen wrote: »

It's because your "vast majority" of naysayers think they are experts in teaching because they went to school, or have one neighbor/relative who is a teacher whom they dislike.

As a teacher, I want to say that I strongly disagree with this.

There are genuine reasons to "bash" teachers, and just because people are rightly being critical of teachers for a variety of reasons does not mean they should be insulted like this.

Also btw, I can tell you that a lot of teachers think exactly the same as treppen!

teachinggal123

Seaandwind wrote: »

Well if you have a large cohort of teachers not vaccinated and schools have Covid, I am pretty sure people will care that their children are not being taught for two weeks if subs aren’t available - considering all the disruptions to education so far.

After two school years affected by Covid and the amount of work to be done with certain year groups I think every possible avenue should be looked at so that this third school year has a clear run with as little disruption as possible. Education is important, we need to be back in a safe environment- they have had absolutely more than enough time to sort this.

So, you are supporting the teaching unions position?

awec

Seaandwind wrote: »

Well if you have a large cohort of teachers not vaccinated and schools have Covid, I am pretty sure people will care that their children are not being taught for two weeks if subs aren’t available - considering all the disruptions to education so far.

After two school years affected by Covid and the amount of work to be done with certain year groups I think every possible avenue should be looked at so that this third school year has a clear run with as little disruption as possible. Education is important, we need to be back in a safe environment- they have had absolutely more than enough time to sort this.

If a few schools, or even a few classes in a few schools have to stay at home for 2 weeks because it's impossible to find anyone to teach then this is still a far better outcome than what we have now. The numbers impacted by this will be very small, and at least it's very unlikely anyone will end up in hospital or dead because of it.

We have schools open now, with zero vaccinated teachers, and hardly any vaccinated parents, and there has, to my knowledge, been no widespread absences of teachers where schools are unable to provide education to children.

Lillyfae

teachinggal123 wrote: »

So, you are supporting the teaching unions position?

I don't think there will be many answering this, there's only been one answer so far I think.

Bass Reeves

Str8outtaWuhan wrote: »

Any teacher vaccinated after 1st of june with the astra wont be fully vaccinated by the time school begins in late august, assuming a 12 week gap between jabs. so unless the gov make all teachers get the j&j, you could have a large cohort of teachers not fully vaccinated come new term.

There is no such thing as fully vaccinated. The propose of the second dose is not to improve the risk of the he disease in the short-term. The purpose of the second jab is to prolong the last effect of the vaccination in general.

A person vaccinated wit AZ will after 10-14 days have obtained a high level of immunity. Because AZ is a more traditional type vaccine a 12 week fab us proposed so as to lengthen the effect of the jab. The other hand are newer technology again after 8-10 days they will give immunity but the second jab is required earlier to maintain immunity.

Any evidence is showing that a short time after the first jab good levels of immunity are achieved the second jab improves actual immunity levels by very little it benefits are longterm immunity. How long that will be will decide if we need an annual jab if these do not provide longer term immunity

blanch152

blanch152 wrote: »

The education sector needs more than a bump in funding, it needs wholescale reform. The OECD have been warning us about this for years.

Junior Cert reform is delayed, but the more pressing need for Leaving Cert reform is colossal. This crisis has shown us that the Leaving Cert is not fit for purpose. These reforms will require huge reforms in teaching that the unions are certainly not prepared for, and that many teachers will not be able for.

Further reforms in the length of the working year and working week as well as calendar reform to reduce the long summer break are needed to bring Irish schools in line with European norms. The time wasted in June on exams needs to be reclaimed.

The OECD seems broadly positive here. And of course PISA we do good. Whenever something is broadly working I'd be reluctant to engage in root and branch reform.

https://www.oecd.org/education/policy-outlook/country-profile-Ireland-2020.pdf

MrMusician18

lulublue22 wrote: »

I really really don’t get the bizarre focus on public support . When has any industrial action particularly that of teachers ever had public support ? Public support for industrial action is a fallacy - people don’t support that which impacts or they perceive to impact on their day to day life. The general public don’t give a **** once it’s not impacting on them. Seriously what clap happy universe do certain posters live in.

Public support generally didn't count for much when it is a private company Vs is workers. Luas would be a good example of this - though the lack of public support meant the government were going to take a hands off approach to solving it and no extra money was forthcoming.

A dispute between government and its workers is a whole other ball game. A government refusing to bend to a popular cause risks damaging the government and worse collapsing it.

Treppen

Lillyfae wrote: »

Beasty asked if you support the unions position?

It's not a union position yet , members have to vote on it and give the Union a mandate.

Bass Reeves

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I wonder is there other compensation?

It's immaterial. Some teachers have a habit of making ridiculous comparison's of there wages compared to elsewhere in the economy. We have one of the highest paid teaching bodies in the developed world with one of the shortest school years.

Do I consider teachers overpaid no neither do I consider them underpaid. My daughter is a teacher she is qualified three years. She is lucky to have a full-time contract and earned about 40k/ year. A nurse at there maximum rate is earning about 50k . A young nurse starting to work earns about 30k.

Teachers have an unrealistic belief in what they should earn. There is a lot if profession careers where your earning may struggle to achieve 50K after 20-30 years in that career. This isn't the case with teaching. Add in other benefits such as the longest holiday period of any job and a working day that is about 5 hours during a scheduled attendance of 6.5-7 hours with maybe 2-3 hours per day of non scheduled work which may be carried out during scheduled attendance or at other times of there choosing.

Like all jobs it has it challenge's but it by no means being used as slave labour

Seaandwind

teachinggal123 wrote: »

So, you are supporting the teaching unions position?

Well if you read my previous post - I think my opinion on the union balloting for a strike now is clear. It is not appropriate at all right now for this school year.

However if there is a considerable amount of teachers not vaccinated by the new school term then I would be supporting unions calling for industrial action then. (Edit: after all older and vulnerable - I do not expect to be vaccinated before anyone in that category)

Lillyfae

Treppen wrote: »

It's not a union position yet , members have to vote on it and give the Union a mandate.

I'm calling this spin. If it wasn't a union position, then 3 unions wouldn't have jointly tabled the motion. If the members support it then that's something different, but many are distancing themselves from the union position.

It's a really simple yes/ no question. Do you support the union position or not?

yabadabado

Bass Reeves wrote: »

There is no such thing as fully vaccinated. The propose of the second dose is not to improve the risk of the he disease in the short-term. The purpose of the second jab is to prolong the last effect of the vaccination in general.

A person vaccinated wit AZ will after 10-14 days have obtained a high level of immunity. Because AZ is a more traditional type vaccine a 12 week fab us proposed so as to lengthen the effect of the jab. The other hand are newer technology again after 8-10 days they will give immunity but the second jab is required earlier to maintain immunity.

Any evidence is showing that a short time after the first jab good levels of immunity are achieved the second jab improves actual immunity levels by very little it benefits are longterm immunity. How long that will be will decide if we need an annual jab if these do not provide longer term immunity

Isn't transmission reduced by 65/70% within 3 weeks of the first dose of Astra and then 12 weeks later the second jab give improves immunity by 10% or less.

Based on the expected figures of vaccine we are getting in Q2 ,there's a good chance you will receive 1 of the other 3 vaccines .

Bass Reeves

Bass Reeves wrote: »

It's immaterial. Some teachers have a habit of making ridiculous comparison's of there wages compared to elsewhere in the economy. We have one of the highest paid teaching bodies in the developed world with one of the shortest school years.

Do I consider teachers overpaid no neither do I consider them underpaid. My daughter is a teacher she is qualified three years. She is lucky to have a full-time contract and earned about 40k/ year. A nurse at there maximum rate is earning about 50k . A young nurse starting to work earns about 30k.

Teachers have an unrealistic belief in what they should earn. There is a lot if profession careers where your earning may struggle to achieve 50K after 20-30 years in that career. This isn't the case with teaching. Add in other benefits such as the longest holiday period of any job and a working day that is about 5 hours during a scheduled attendance of 6.5-7 hours with maybe 2-3 hours per day of non scheduled work which may be carried out during scheduled attendance or at other times of there choosing.

Like all jobs it has it challenge's but it by no means being used as slave labour

There aren’t that many professional 3rd vocational careers, as opposed to jobs in general, where people wouldn’t expect to earn 50k+ eventually.

I decided not to become a teacher, although my parents were, because of all the work they did in the evening. Unfortunately a lot of jobs are like that now.

The holidays are good to be sure.

Treppen

blanch152 wrote: »

The education sector needs more than a bump in funding, it needs wholescale reform. The OECD have been warning us about this for years.

Junior Cert reform is delayed, but the more pressing need for Leaving Cert reform is colossal. This crisis has shown us that the Leaving Cert is not fit for purpose. These reforms will require huge reforms in teaching that the unions are certainly not prepared for, and that many teachers will not be able for.

Further reforms in the length of the working year and working week as well as calendar reform to reduce the long summer break are needed to bring Irish schools in line with European norms. The time wasted in June on exams needs to be reclaimed.

I'm not sure why you're saying junior cert reform is delayed... It's here now and it's now called The Junior Cycle... How do you think it's going?

BTW the ASTI have called for a review before implementing a revised Leaving cert... Would you be in favour of that?


Saying teachers will not be able for the new Leaving Cert is a bit ill- informed if you ask any secondary teacher they've been through many reforms and initiatives before.. I've been through about 4 "reforms"...3 subject overhauls, 1 junior cycle, not to mention learning support criteria which changes every single year... Oh and wellbeing, GDPR, anti bullying changes too... and I attend the subject association meetings every year which informs those changes.

But also -for those not actually in education but speaking about it- the Leaving Cert has been changing subject by subject on a phased basis.

And to put the nonsense about the unions being against reform, they are more than happy to engage in the process...



Do you agree with this motion?
I'm sure you are particularly cognisant of what he means by 'depth of treatment' in relation to how the Junior Cycle has been criticised.

Sure everyone like yourself wants continuous assessment but have you asked any teachers how the CBAs are going... Aren't they such a valuable use of time :pac:

Lillyfae

Deleted User wrote: »

There aren’t that many professional 3rd vocational careers, as opposed to jobs in general, where people wouldn’t expect to earn 50k+ eventually.

I decided not to become a teacher, although my parents were, because of all the work they did in the evening. Unfortunately a lot of jobs are like that now.

The holidays are good to be sure.

Yes but public sector jobs are different- lower salaries than the private sector but higher job security and better conditions. That is the trade off that you are accepting when you work in a government job!!

Lollipops23

I consider myself generally pro-trade union. I even trained as a Siptu shop steward at one stage in an old job.

But teacher unions can F*ck right off. They want to push my 60 year old dad out of the way to get jabbed? They want to tell us they're more likely to need a hospital bed or even die than 60-70 year olds? Really??

yabadabado

Seaandwind wrote: »

Well if you read my previous post - I think my opinion on the union balloting for a strike now is clear. It is not appropriate at all right now for this school year.

However if there is a considerable amount of teachers not vaccinated by the new school term then I would be supporting unions calling for industrial action then. (Edit: after all older and vulnerable - I do not expect to be vaccinated before anyone in that category)

It's expected 80 per cent of people, will have been offered the first dose by the end of June .

If thats the case I cannot see why all teachers wouldnt have at least one dose gotten before starting back to school and ideally they would have first dose gotten by start of August.

Beasty

Lillyfae wrote: »

Beasty asked if you support the unions position?

To be clear I asked a question. Absolutely no-one is obliged to respond whatever their position. I am trying to gauge how much of this is down to union "militants" and how much support is there at grass roots level.

I have made my own feelings known. I understand unions will typically be dominated by "militant" types, as people who feel change is necessary are much more likely to put their name forward for positions of authority within a union (certainly versus people who are satisfied with things the way there are).

I do know there has been some disquiet expressed on this site about the change in priorities, but I don't really know how many are so outraged they really want to threaten the nation like this. It's a genuine question, but as I say no-one has any obligation to reply.

I know some have complained about "teacher bashing" in a number of threads. I personally would never want to be seen to be "bashing" anyone. Equally though if the unions that represent teachers can behave like this, it's a very unfortunate side effect that many will think a lot of teachers support these proposals. The solution to all of this is in the hands of the teachers whenever they elect their union officials

lulublue22

Treppen wrote: »

I'm not sure why you're saying junior cert reform is delayed... It's here now and it's now called The Junior Cycle... How do you think it's going?

BTW the ASTI have called for a review before implementing a revised Leaving cert... Would you be in favour of that?


Saying teachers will not be able for the new Leaving Cert is a bit ill- informed if you ask any secondary teacher they've been through many reforms and initiatives before.. I've been through about 4 "reforms"...3 subject overhauls, 1 junior cycle, not to mention learning support criteria which changes every single year... Oh and wellbeing, GDPR, anti bullying changes too... and I attend the subject association meetings every year which informs those changes.

But also -for those not actually in education but speaking about it- the Leaving Cert has been changing subject by subject on a phased basis.

And to put the nonsense about the unions being against reform, they are more than happy to engage in the process...



Do you agree with this motion?

Sure everyone like yourself wants continuous assessment but have you asked any teachers how the CBAs are going... Aren't they such a valuable use of time :pac:

There’s nothing new about posters posting opinions on educational matters that they honestly know very little about. The information is there people just don’t go looking for it. A range of motions across a number of educational matters were passed by each of the 3 teaching unions yesterday( as at every annual congress ) yet only the one concerning the vacc of teachers will gain any media / public traction.

Treppen

Beasty wrote: »

To be clear I asked a question. Absolutely no-one is obliged to respond whatever their position. I am trying to gauge how much of this is down to union "militants" and how much support is there at grass roots level.

I have made my own feelings known. I understand unions will typically be dominated by "militant" types, as people who feel change is necessary are much more likely to put their name forward for positions of authority within a union (certainly versus people who are satisfied with things the way there are).

I do know there has been some disquiet expressed on this site about the change in priorities, but I don't really know how many are so outraged they really want to threaten the nation like this. It's a genuine question, but as I say no-one has any obligation to reply.

I know some have complained about "teacher bashing" in a number of threads. I personally would never want to be seen to be "bashing" anyone. Equally though if the unions that represent teachers can behave like this, it's a very unfortunate side effect that many will think a lot of teachers support these proposals. The solution to all of this is in the hands of the teachers whenever they elect their union officials

You appear to be splitting off the Union into types with 'officials' 'militant types' and ' grass roots'.

Your forgetting that at the end of the day it's a democracy and everyone is free to vote and each vote carries the same weight, in the same way that every member can bring a motion to be examined.

"it's a very unfortunate side effect that many will think a lot of teachers support these proposals. "... Let's just wait and see what actually happens, people can think what they like , as always teachers shouldn't rely on public support to seek fair working conditions... Thankfully.

Finty Lemon

Lillyfae wrote: »

Yes but public sector jobs are different- lower salaries than the private sector but higher job security and better conditions. That is the trade off that you are accepting when you work in a government job!!

Pension, paid holidays, life contract.

Lillyfae

Treppen wrote: »

You appear to be splitting off the Union into types with 'officials' 'militant types' and ' grass roots'.

Your forgetting that at the end of the day it's a democracy and everyone is free to vote and each view carries the same weight, in the same way that every member can bring a motion to be examined.

"it's a very unfortunate side effect that many will think a lot of teachers support these proposals. "... Let's just wait and see what actually happens, people can think what they like , as always teachers shouldn't rely on public support to seek fair working conditions... Thankfully.

But teaching is a public job! Of course it matters what the public think, they are essentially the employers of the teachers!!

Lillyfae

Finty Lemon wrote: »

Pension, paid holidays, life contract.

These are not unusual things, why wouldn't they get pensions and paid holidays? Most private sector employees get these too

Seaandwind

Lollipops23 wrote: »

I consider myself generally pro-trade union. I even trained as a Siptu shop steward at one stage in an old job.

But teacher unions can F*ck right off. They want to push my 60 year old dad out of the way to get jabbed? They want to tell us they're more likely to need a hospital bed or even die than 60-70 year olds? Really??

The unions are so wrong - their members (well those I know) do not want to be vaccinated before your dad or any other person who is older or vulnerable. Genuinely I do not know anyone who expects to jump in front of that category.