The annual ASTI Easter strike threat

B_ecke_r

KaneToad wrote: »

What about retail workers that are not public facing? What about guards that never interact with the public?

There is a problem with doing it by 'interest groups'. Age is the best way forward.

Nah I don't believe a 90 odd year old should get it before a frontline worker.

BettyS

B_ecke_r wrote: »

Nah I don't believe a 90 odd year old should get it before a frontline worker.

And have you science or information to back this up? Or is it just a position of yours, that a 90 year old’s life is not as worthwhile as a frontline worker’s life?

Science and fairness have consistently showed that age-first is the fairest option!

Wanderer78

BettyS wrote:

Science and fairness have consistently showed that age-first is the fairest option!

Has it really?

Bass Reeves

Wanderer78 wrote: »

Has it really?

With the exception of mainly nurses and doctors yes it has. The risk factors with this disease increase with age. A 60-70years old is 6 time more likely to die than a 30-40 years old. There is a risk table a little down in this this link

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/need-extra-precautions/older-adults.html

Str8outtaWuhan

Bass Reeves wrote: »

With the exception of mainly nurses and doctors yes it has. The risk factors with this disease increase with age. A 60-70years old is 6 time more likely to die than a 30-40 years old. There is a risk table a little down in this this link

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/need-extra-precautions/older-adults.html

I think you will find that is true for all disease, in fact the really crazy think is that you are more likely to die in your 60's than you are in your 30's in ANY situation!!!!

Bass Reeves

Str8outtaWuhan wrote: »

I think you will find that is true for all disease, in fact the really crazy think is that you are more likely to die in your 60's than you are in your 30's in ANY situation!!!!

Not necessarily with viruses. The Spanish flu caused most deaths in the late teens to 30 age group. Previous to modern medicine childhood mortality was very high. It was as well within the travelling community up until 20-30 years ago.

As well if you survive the 50-60 age group your life expectancy increases slightly.

So it not entirely true of any disease. One of the big fears with virus is they can impact children who have lower normal immunity build up often harder than adults even into there 70's. In this case it didn't and we have to be thankful for that

Windorah

BettyS wrote: »

A physio and an OT working from home? Really? That shows you how little you understand other people’s professions.

People don’t want to teacher-bash. But you cannot blame the public for being mad at the ASTI

Nope. Our physio and our O.T are working remotely. From home. Any other questions? On that same token you don't understand my job.

Many, many teachers have said on this very thread they do not agree with the unions stance, myself included..

Anyways it's the same user names still spouting the same anti teacher rhetoric and refusing to take on board any other opinions so I'll bow out now!

Wanderer78

Bass Reeves wrote: »

With the exception of mainly nurses and doctors yes it has. The risk factors with this disease increase with age. A 60-70years old is 6 time more likely to die than a 30-40 years old. There is a risk table a little down in this this link

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/need-extra-precautions/older-adults.html

its a very difficult thing to analysis, for example, i was given the vaccine, as im autistic, many of us on the spectrum would be deteriorating rapidly psychologically due to covid, which can lead to very messy stuff if left be. but i do realise that many, probably most older folks would be more vulnerable, particularly physically. this roll out is gonna get very messy, as essentially, most if not all citizens require the vaccine asap

Bass Reeves

Wanderer78 wrote: »

its a very difficult thing to analysis, for example, i was given the vaccine, as im autistic, many of us on the spectrum would be deteriorating rapidly psychologically due to covid, which can lead to very messy stuff if left be. but i do realise that many, probably most older folks would be more vulnerable, particularly physically. this roll out is gonna get very messy, as essentially, most if not all citizens require the vaccine asap

The system of rollout we have used in Ireland has been sensible and fair. Vaccinate those most at risk and those that can look after them to an extent.

Dealing with this disease is similar to flying with the seat of you pants when making decisions regarding it. My references to age based criteria is that we have reached a stage in the vaccination program where age based criteria is the most appropriate method from now on.

This idea that every time a decision need to.be made all stakeholders need to be considered and consulted us not appropriate. Time is not your friend with this disease

Wanderer78

Bass Reeves wrote: »

The system of rollout we have used in Ireland has been sensible and fair. Vaccinate those most at risk and those that can look after them to an extent.

Dealing with this disease is similar to flying with the seat of you pants when making decisions regarding it. My references to age based criteria is that we have reached a stage in the vaccination program where age based criteria is the most appropriate method from now on.

This idea that every time a decision need to.be made all stakeholders need to be considered and consulted us not appropriate. Time is not your friend with this disease

id some what disagree there, id argue that many should have been vaccinated well ahead of myself, i wasnt expecting to be until much later in the year, possibly next year. many people are far more vulnerable to myself, from health workers to gardai, and beyond, this will really get messy

Wanderer78

Wanderer78 wrote: »

id some what disagree there, id argue that many should have been vaccinated well ahead of myself, i wasnt expecting to be until much later in the year, possibly next year. many people are far more vulnerable to myself, from health workers to gardai, and beyond, this will really get messy

I don’t know how it can get messy if it just goes by date of birth. Simple and straightforward.

The only mess would be with the volume of vaccines delivered but that’s out of our control. Just hope that manufacturing runs smoothly.

Wanderer78

Strawberry Milkshake wrote: »

I don’t know how it can get messy if it just goes by date of birth. Simple and straightforward.

The only mess would be with the volume of vaccines delivered but that’s out of our control. Just hope that manufacturing runs smoothly.

its already becoming messy, different interest groups are already getting involved, unions etc, this will get very messy. unfortunately since the whole globe is desperately needing this, manufacturing capacity simply isnt there, so......

So stick to the age plan. Those within the interest groups who are a higher age will get vaccinated and the chance of someone dying from covid will reduce too.

It would be lovely to click ones fingers and everyone is vaccinated. The speed from the first covid cases to where we are now though is phenomenal. We’re lucky to live in an era of amazing scientific advancements.

meeeeh

Wanderer78 wrote: »

id some what disagree there, id argue that many should have been vaccinated well ahead of myself, i wasnt expecting to be until much later in the year, possibly next year. many people are far more vulnerable to myself, from health workers to gardai, and beyond, this will really get messy

It won't get overly messy. You accepted the vaccine despite thinking others are more vulnerable. I presume because you realised that taking the vaccine when you ae offered is the most straightforward thing. Most people will be the same so as long as state has decent supply, no major logistical issues, we have enough vaccinators there shouldn't be too much mess.

Wanderer78

Strawberry Milkshake wrote: »

So stick to the age plan. Those within the interest groups who are a higher age will get vaccinated and the chance of someone dying from covid will reduce too.

It would be lovely to click ones fingers and everyone is vaccinated. The speed from the first covid cases to where we are now though is phenomenal. We’re lucky to live in an era of amazing scientific advancements.

particular jobs have more closure contacts than other professions, this would be evident within the educational system, health care system, gardai, etc etc, this isnt clear cut at all, prepare for messiness

awec

Wanderer78 wrote: »

particular jobs have more closure contacts than other professions, this would be evident within the educational system, health care system, gardai, etc etc, this isnt clear cut at all, prepare for messiness

But by and large this is of no relevance once the vulnerable are vaccinated.

The main goal is not to stop people getting covid, it's to stop people getting hospitalised or killed by covid. That is why an age-based, fast rollout is by far the most sensible approach, we no longer have to care about who works where or who might meet who, with very few exceptions (e.g. health workers).

Wanderer78

awec wrote: »

But by and large this is of no relevance once the vulnerable are vaccinated.

The main goal is not to stop people getting covid, it's to stop people getting hospitalised or killed by covid. That is why an age-based, fast rollout is by far the most sensible approach, we no longer have to care about who works where or who might meet who, with very few exceptions (e.g. health workers).

again, you cant just base all of this on age, increased risk, is simply that, higher concentration of contacts, and high risk contacts, produces higher risks for everyone, global supplies obviously cant keep up with demand either, dont be surprised if we re still vaccinating this time next year

Bass Reeves

Wanderer78 wrote: »

id some what disagree there, id argue that many should have been vaccinated well ahead of myself, i wasnt expecting to be until much later in the year, possibly next year. many people are far more vulnerable to myself, from health workers to gardai, and beyond, this will really get messy

There will always be people vaccinated out of turn especially if you use a sectional method. When you decide to vaccinate health care staff do you stop at nurses and doctors, no so you do care assistants ward staff and porters. What about the clerical staff in emergency, ya you do them but they are mixing with other clerical staff in hospitals so you do them etc etc.

What makes Gardai and teachers special. I expect that while on an individual garda may be in a more at risk situation at times on average across the force are they more at risk than supermarket workers especially those on till who have to interact with 10-15 customers/hour. Is a teacher more at risk than a meat factory worker again any analysis of disease levels would indicate no. This is especially true with the school holiday being only 6-7 weeks away for 2nd level and 3-4 more for primary

If we do teachers, obiviously we need to do SNA's what about school caretakers and cleaners. Should they be done too. Should we do relief cleanes. These cleaners may also be the same cleaners that do hospitals the majority of these have been done so the school principle would end up making appointments for people already vaccinated as we are finding in the system already. Biggest problem I see will the IT booking system be suitable and able to cope with the volume

Bass Reeves

Wanderer78 wrote: »

particular jobs have more closure contacts than other professions, this would be evident within the educational system, health care system, gardai, etc etc, this isnt clear cut at all, prepare for messiness

It always amazes me the way people prioritize public sector workers as if no other workers is at risk due to there work. Some private sector workers are just as at risk but no case is made fot them

Wanderer78

Bass Reeves wrote: »

There will always be people vaccinated out of turn especially if you use a sectional method. When you decide to vaccinate health care staff do you stop at nurses and doctors, no so you do care assistants ward staff and porters. What about the clerical staff in emergency, ya you do them but they are mixing with other clerical staff in hospitals so you do them etc etc.

What makes Gardai and teachers special. I expect that while on an individual garda may be in a more at risk situation at times on average across the force are they more at risk than supermarket workers especially those on till who have to interact with 10-15 customers/hour. Is a teacher more at risk than a meat factory worker again any analysis of disease levels would indicate no. This is especially true with the school holiday being only 6-7 weeks away for 2nd level and 3-4 more for primary

If we do teachers, obiviously we need to do SNA's what about school caretakers and cleaners. Should they be done too. Should we do relief cleanes. These cleaners may also be the same cleaners that do hospitals the majority of these have been done so the school principle would end up making appointments for people already vaccinated as we are finding in the system already. Biggest problem I see will the IT booking system be suitable and able to cope with the volume

you will find gardai actually spend a significant amount of their time dealing with highly complex people, in highly complex situations, including people with highly complex psychological issues, many behaving erratically, many high at risk at becoming positive, hence......

educational staff sometimes have to deal with a similar set of issues, and of course its a highly concentrated environment, hence.....

FileNotFound

Why is everyone trying to drag the Gardai into it?
If they requested vaccination in a hurry (assume their representative body have) it is justified.

The issue here is that teachers are essentially demanding to be vaccinated at the start of the summer break rather than at the end.

The Gardai will be working full time during this period.

Lets keep this to the point the Teachers demand to be vaccinated in time for a 3 month low/no risk period rather than wait the 3 months and allow actually at risk people to get the vaccine first.

Wanderer78

Bass Reeves wrote: »

It always amazes me the way people prioritize public sector workers as if no other workers is at risk due to there work. Some private sector workers are just as at risk but no case is made fot them

many workers in both the health care system and educational system, would indeed be private sector employed

FileNotFound

Wanderer78 wrote: »

you will find gardai actually spend a significant amount of their time dealing with highly complex people, in highly complex situations, including people with highly complex psychological issues, many behaving erratically, many high at risk at becoming positive, hence......

educational staff sometimes have to deal with a similar set of issues, and of course its a highly concentrated environment, hence.....

But they will not be in school during the 2-3 months post vaccination which is the issue really..

Bass Reeves

Wanderer78 wrote: »

many workers in both the health care system and educational system, would indeed be private sector employed

Yes but there are other wporkers in the private sector that are at at much or more risk that Garda and teachers. TBF to the Gardai they there representives came out expressed there disappointment and declare they speak to the minister and department and that was it.

Teacher unions decided to try to bully there was back ahead of the que. NIAC are an independent in the advice they give as is NEPHET. One thing we have learned through out this pandemic is how independent hey are. They do no care for political conquences.

Are you claiming there analysis is wrong

In the time spent with us all arguing about who should be next, how many people from the 65+ age bracket would have been vaccinated? Move on in time and the teacher’s unions still DEMANDING they all be vaccinated first, how many of their 50+ members would be also done?

I can give valid reasons as to why I should be vaccinated right now. But in the time I’d spend going on and on about it and others arguing back that “no, I should be before you”, there are thousands of people whose chance of dying is far greater than mine getting protection.

Roll out by age - simple, effective, leads to less entries on rip.ie

FileNotFound

Strawberry Milkshake wrote: »

In the time spent with us all arguing about who should be next, how many people from the 65+ age bracket would have been vaccinated? Move on in time and the teacher’s unions still DEMANDING they all be vaccinated first, how many of their 50+ members would be also done?

I can give valid reasons as to why I should be vaccinated right now. But in the time I’d spend going on and on about it and others arguing back that “no, I should be before you”, there are thousands of people whose chance of dying is far greater than mine getting protection.

Roll out by age - simple, effective, leads to less entries on rip.ie

Absolutely.

Triangle

Wanderer78 wrote: »

again, you cant just base all of this on age, increased risk, is simply that, higher concentration of contacts, and high risk contacts, produces higher risks for everyone, global supplies obviously cant keep up with demand either, dont be surprised if we re still vaccinating this time next year

Wanderer, are you talking about increased risk of catching covid or increased risk of getting serious conditions from covid. They're completely different.
The science and NIAC/Nphet are concerned with the latter. The teachers are concerned with the former.

Edit: it's also been shown numerous times in this thread that trying to rollout the vaccine to 4 million people based on occupational risk would slow down the process.

khalessi

FileNotFound wrote: »

Why is everyone trying to drag the Gardai into it?
If they requested vaccination in a hurry (assume their representative body have) it is justified.

The issue here is that teachers are essentially demanding to be vaccinated at the start of the summer break rather than at the end.

The Gardai will be working full time during this period.

Lets keep this to the point the Teachers demand to be vaccinated in time for a 3 month low/no risk period rather than wait the 3 months and allow actually at risk people to get the vaccine first.

Gardaí met with gov about being vaccinated.

Teachers not trying to be vaccinated by holidays, incorrect there.

Unions trying to get gov to agree by the summer to vaccinate teachers in a timely fashion so they are done by August as most schools reopen in August. They were already been promised to be in top 30% after old and vunerable that was changed. So now trying to guarantee all teachers vaccinated by opening of autumn term to keep schools open.

Wanderer78

Bass Reeves wrote: »

Yes but there are other wporkers in the private sector that are at at much or more risk that Garda and teachers. TBF to the Gardai they there representives came out expressed there disappointment and declare they speak to the minister and department and that was it.

Teacher unions decided to try to bully there was back ahead of the que. NIAC are an independent in the advice they give as is NEPHET. One thing we have learned through out this pandemic is how independent hey are. They do no care for political conquences.

Are you claiming there analysis is wrong

i wouldnt say its necessarily wrong, just not full or complete, but it is an understandable stand point. we have not known how to deal with our psychological needs throughout all of this, in fact id argue, we never have, even pre covid. theres astonishing levels of complexities in our social structures, covid is highlighting theses, hence all the push back

its extremely important to try understand why such unions are so forth right regarding their approaches

awec

Wanderer78 wrote: »

again, you cant just base all of this on age, increased risk, is simply that, higher concentration of contacts, and high risk contacts, produces higher risks for everyone, global supplies obviously cant keep up with demand either, dont be surprised if we re still vaccinating this time next year

Again the number of contacts is of no consequence once the vulnerable are vaccinated.

If a 30 year old teacher gets covid, and she gives it to the 5 other 30 year olds she lives with this is of no major consequence. They are incredibly unlikely to end up getting seriously ill, you'll just have a bunch of people suffering with covid at home. Once there is no link in the chain to an unvaccinated vulnerable person the risk and strain on the heath system is reduced enormously.

To put it another way, if the elderly and vulnerable were immune to covid from the start, and so all covid was was a very bad, very infectious flu among the non-vulnerable population, we would have likely had no lockdowns.