The annual ASTI Easter strike threat

Triangle

briangriffin wrote: »

There are older teachers and high risk teachers still working in classrooms around the country. Classrooms where there are 25 to 30 children/ teens at any one time. That creates a substantially greater risk of infection for those already at risk teachers.
If I am 55 and working from home and I am 55 and working in a school I am more exposed to the risk of contracting covid from the 25 to 30 other people who are in the same room as me that's not rocket science is it?
If you think the government will have teachers vaccinated before next September you must be living in lala land remember schools are safe the building kills the virus therefore no need to vaccinate.

Brian if you look back at the earlier posts. It was explained numerous times why doing it by age instead of occupation is a faster way of rolling it out.
And yes, a 55 yo working in retail would have an increased chance of getting it than a 55 yo working from home. But its again down to

1) fastest way to roll it out
2) hitting the most vulnerable first.

NIAC are not out to get teachers. And it was them that advised it.
If the government went against health officials, there would (and has been) uproar.

blanch152

briangriffin wrote: »

😄
Sure, ok what about the 25 kids in the classroom ?
2 of them can't meet outside school in the open air but it's fine for 25 of them to meet indoors with an adult because it's safe, schools are safe.
How are they carefully controlled?
Look I don't mind I much prefer being in class and so do the kids it's better for everyone but don't be spouting nonsense.

What about them?

Transmission is not happening in school settings, thanks to the great work of the schools in managing the situation. Positivity rates for close contacts are far below those in the community.

There are a lot of false fears being spread.

TheValeyard

blanch152 wrote: »

Teachers are not working in crowded settings, they are not in meat factories, they are not in retail stores, they are in carefully controlled environments.

Pringles123

blanch152 wrote: »

Teachers are not working in crowded settings, they are not in meat factories, they are not in retail stores, they are in carefully controlled environments.

That's your opinion but a secondary teacher is going in and out of different classrooms and could be in the same rooms as up to 250 people a day. By the government committing to what was originally promised they are protecting all people working in these environments. The idea here isn't to compare all jobs that have crowded settings but vaccinate people in those jobs.

blanch152

briangriffin wrote: »

Jaysus you honestly have to have a snipe in every single reply, yes lots of people can retire early.
The thing you don't get is if you can't contract the virus because you are working from home then you can't become ill from the virus and you can't pass it on to more vulnerable people in your family.

Sorry, a 55-year old working from home, who still has to go to the shops, still has to take exercise, is still more at risk from dying of Covid than any teacher under 50.

Them's the facts, live with them.


P.S. It is not a snipe to point out the fact that there are very few teachers over 55 because of the generous retirement arrangements. That's a pertinent fact, and I wasn't saying that teachers don't deserve it, I was just pointing to the fact of it.

blanch152

Pringles123 wrote: »

That's your opinion but a secondary teacher is going in and out of different classrooms and could be in the same rooms as up to 250 people a day. By the government committing to what was originally promised they are protecting all people working in these environments. The idea here isn't to compare all jobs that have crowded settings but vaccinate people in those jobs.

Behind a screen from over 3 metres with a mask and a visor, and still not meeting as many people as a retail worker.

TheValeyard

blanch152 wrote: »

Sorry, a 55-year old working from home, who still has to go to the shops, still has to take exercise, is still more at risk from dying of Covid than any teacher under 50.

Them's the facts, live with them.

Facts eh? That teacher under 50 may have known or unknown health problems that covid could expose or be potentially lethal.

blanch152 wrote: »

P.S. It is not a snipe to point out the fact that there are very few teachers over 55 because of the generous retirement arrangements. That's a pertinent fact, and I wasn't saying that teachers don't deserve it, I was just pointing to the fact of it.

Id like some links on this, I know plenty of teachers 55+ working full hours with zero intention of retiring.

TheValeyard

blanch152 wrote: »

Behind a screen from over 3 metres with a mask and a visor, and still not meeting as many people as a retail worker.

:pac::pac::pac:

3 metres!! You have obviously never been in a classroom. Also teachers have been told to not wear visors anymore, so thats out of date right there.

Retail workers can also and do limit the number of people who can enter there premises at any one time. for obvious safety reasons.

briangriffin

Triangle wrote: »

Brian if you look back at the earlier posts. It was explained numerous times why doing it by age instead of occupation is a faster way of rolling it out.
And yes, a 55 yo working in retail would have an increased chance of getting it than a 55 yo working from home. But its again down to

1) fastest way to roll it out
2) hitting the most vulnerable first.

NIAC are not out to get teachers. And it was them that advised it.
If the government went against health officials, there would (and has been) uproar.

I'm well aware what was said earlier I don't agree. The vaccine programme is an absolute mess. As I said the priority for government was protecting the elderly and vulnerable and keeping schools open.
We were told in January by NPHET officials when we had one of the highest rates of covid in the world that schools were safe, a few days later MM says actually hang on we were wrong schools are not safe.
These people are literally making it up as they go along, if you work in a crowded setting then surely you can see there is an increased risk of catching and spreading covid.

blanch152

TheValeyard wrote: »

:pac::pac::pac:

3 metres!! You have obviously never been in a classroom. Also teachers have been told to not wear visors anymore, so thats out of date right there.

Retail workers can also and do limit the number of people who can enter there premises at any one time. for obvious safety reasons.

Those retail workers will see a lot more people than the fabled 250 met by a single teacher in one day.

briangriffin

blanch152 wrote: »

Sorry, a 55-year old working from home, who still has to go to the shops, still has to take exercise, is still more at risk from dying of Covid than any teacher under 50.

Them's the facts, live with them.


P.S. It is not a snipe to point out the fact that there are very few teachers over 55 because of the generous retirement arrangements. That's a pertinent fact, and I wasn't saying that teachers don't deserve it, I was just pointing to the fact of it.

A 55 year old who shops is more at risk of contracting covid than a secondary teacher who has contact with over 100 people or a primary teacher with 30, and their families and friends. OK thats a fact so il take note.
The government number 1 policy in reducing covid in the community is to reduce contacts to ban gatherings of people and advising people to stay home, it stands to reason that they would vaccinate those that are being asked to disobey those exact guidelines when they are employed by the state to keep one of their stated policies of keeping schools open going.

Locotastic

briangriffin wrote: »

😄
Sure, ok what about the 25 kids in the classroom ?
2 of them can't meet outside school in the open air but it's fine for 25 of them to meet indoors with an adult because it's safe, schools are safe.

Eh, yes they can meet outside of school.

briangriffin

blanch152 wrote: »

Those retail workers will see a lot more people than the fabled 250 met by a single teacher in one day.

For more than 15 mins in a small area let's say 8 x 8 m with no glass partition? Walking through them as you check their work and help them with their work when they are stuck?

khalessi

blanch152 wrote: »

Teachers are not working in crowded settings, they are not in meat factories, they are not in retail stores, they are in carefully controlled environments.

Good to know, retail stores are carefully controlled environments, with mechanical ventilation and people dont tend to stay 5 hours but that has been pointed out before

TheValeyard

blanch152 wrote: »

Those retail workers will see a lot more people than the fabled 250 met by a single teacher in one day.

Fabled? Say nine classes on a Monday with 26-30 per class. You'd be near that 250 very easily. But you already know this.

Triangle

briangriffin wrote: »

I'm well aware what was said earlier I don't agree. The vaccine programme is an absolute mess. As I said the priority for government was protecting the elderly and vulnerable and keeping schools open.
We were told in January by NPHET officials when we had one of the highest rates of covid in the world that schools were safe, a few days later MM says actually hang on we were wrong schools are not safe.
These people are literally making it up as they go along, if you work in a crowded setting then surely you can see there is an increased risk of catching and spreading covid.

Once again you seem to be confusing NIAC/Nphet and government.

And your failure to comprehend the detail people that have experience in databases and the difficulties with merging multiple datasets to a singular set shows your comprehension of the situation is FINITE. Maybe you have some knowledge in this area yourself so you could have counter points to the reasons listed previously and list them

With the idea that they're making it up as they go along. Again you are confusing a static situation to one where the virus mutates, which is the case. The AZ vaccine has been stopped in South Africa due to not being good enough with their mutation.
There is no plan that won't keep changing worldwide, not just Ireland.

On the point of schools being safe, it's been said by numerous sources that schools are not a SOURCE of infection and its Generally COMMUNITY spreading that is causing the high rates.
Do you honestly think the HSE/NIAC/Nphet have it in for one occupation I. E. Teachers or maybe they have a more scientific vision?.

Triangle

briangriffin wrote: »

You see I know you know the unions were not asking to be vaccinated ahead of the elderly and vulnerable. Just that the government commit to what they had earlier promised which was to vaccinate those working in crowded settings.
The government have prioritised protecting the elderly and vulnerable and getting children back to school, whatever you think about teachers it makes sense to vaccinate people who are working in crowded settings ahead of people working from home just so the people working in crowded settings can continue to work when there is an outbreak.

They Asked /demanded /felt entitled to a higher priority that their risk model exposed them too.
And again, it was NIAC and NPHET that recommended these issues not the 'government'.

Bass Reeves

TheValeyard wrote: »

Fabled? Say nine classes on a Monday with 26-30 per class. You'd be near that 250 very easily. But you already know this.

It's unlikely. Most teachers would have one double class in the day. In secondary schools it's again unlikely that every class would be 26-30 students. Some subjects have maximum numbers of sub 25 such as woodwork, Technical graphics, Home economics etc. Odds are most teachers will have o e free class on the day as well.

So average at 26/27 allow for a free and a double class leaves it's about 190 max. Of a student continued like this they would be pulled up for exaggeration

Pringles123

blanch152 wrote: »

Those retail workers will see a lot more people than the fabled 250 met by a single teacher in one day.

Nobody here has said retail workers should not get a vaccine. In fact they are in front of teachers on the very list teachers are asking to be returned. So why are you comparing us to them if they would be vaccinated before us? Also my school does not have these screens and i know many others that dont. Students and teachers still have to walk in and out and between classrooms, many every 40 minutes particularly leaving cert students and I can only laugh at that 3 metres comment, because there is no school in the country that could implement that distance!

briangriffin

Triangle wrote: »

Once again you seem to be confusing NIAC/Nphet and government.

And your failure to comprehend the detail people that have experience in databases and the difficulties with merging multiple datasets to a singular set shows your comprehension of the situation is FINITE. Maybe you have some knowledge in this area yourself so you could have counter points to the reasons listed previously and list them

With the idea that they're making it up as they go along. Again you are confusing a static situation to one where the virus mutates, which is the case. The AZ vaccine has been stopped in South Africa due to not being good enough with their mutation.
There is no plan that won't keep changing worldwide, not just Ireland.

On the point of schools being safe, it's been said by numerous sources that schools are not a SOURCE of infection and its Generally COMMUNITY spreading that is causing the high rates.
Do you honestly think the HSE/NIAC/Nphet have it in for one occupation I. E. Teachers or maybe they have a more scientific vision?.

Its hard to comprehend what you are saying in your first paragraph there. Apart from the fact Finite is a word you are fond of.
Yes I know the difference between NIAC/NEPHET and the government. The government have ignored the advice of the medical experts on numerous occasions. The medical experts have also given questionable advice on numerous occasions and have admitted getting it wrong. You seem to have difficulty comprehending that though. Again in January with community transmission rates the highest in the world we were told schools were safe and a few days later were told hang on they are not safe. I recall NPHET doctor Collins saying schools are as safe despite no additional safety measures and a more highly contagious virus.
If the community is the source of infection and the children come from the community and mix for hours during the day in large numbers which is literally the opposite of all public guidelines then do you not see how there is more of a risk for Teachers and SNAs.
There are different rules in schools when it comes to testing – not everyone in a class has been seen as a close contact and tested. I know teachers and families isolating from other family members going into school who contracted the virus and were told it was community transmission even though they had cut their community contacts. Up to full opening of schools last week the data they are using was based on testing of close contacts pre Christmas, not all close contacts were tested. Which is why when teachers, who know exactly what is happening on the ground in classrooms were told schools are safe in January even with the new strain they were up in arms as may I point out parents who were concerned for their children were. Now with the newer more contagious dare I say it airborne strain that presents a greater risk to everyone in schools. It would make sense to vaccinate in those settings in fact this has been prioritized in other countries like France and America. Again not ahead of the elderly and vulnerable or healthcare workers that’s not what teachers are looking for but it makes a fantastic headline as does the “strike”. We won’t strike we are glad to be back in class despite everything I’ve said above because its best for the children and teachers and online learning is no where near as effective – but teachers didn’t invent covid for a few handy months working from home. If you have to work in a crowded setting it makes sense to vaccinate so that you can keep workers safe and schools open that’s not out of any sense of entitlement.

Valhallapt

TheValeyard wrote: »

Fabled? Say nine classes on a Monday with 26-30 per class. You'd be near that 250 very easily. But you already know this.

Nine classes in one day, even allowing for supervision its highly unusual for a secondary teacher to have more than 21 teaching periods in a week. at 9 per day, your working week would be finished before lunchtime on Wednesday.

teachinggal123

briangriffin wrote: »

The government have ignored the advice of the medical experts on numerous occasions.

So you must be delighted the Govt are following the expert medical advice and going with an aged-based strategy for vaccinations, correct?

TheValeyard

Valhallapt wrote: »

Nine classes in one day, even allowing for supervision its highly unusual for a secondary teacher to have more than 21 teaching periods in a week. at 9 per day, your working week would be finished before lunchtime on Wednesday.

Im well aware of many second level teachers with nine classes on a single day. It happens.

TheValeyard

Bass Reeves wrote: »

It's unlikely. Most teachers would have one double class in the day. In secondary schools it's again unlikely that every class would be 26-30 students. Some subjects have maximum numbers of sub 25 such as woodwork, Technical graphics, Home economics etc. Odds are most teachers will have o e free class on the day as well.

Most teachers would not have a double class a day. Particularly core subjects. Some teachers would have 8 or 9 a day. Yes this has advantages later or earlier in the week. But a teacher can and does have nine classes on the one day.

Bass Reeves wrote: »

Of a student continued like this they would be pulled up for exaggeration

What a childish response from an adult.

Valhallapt

TheValeyard wrote: »

Im well aware of many second level teachers with nine classes on a single day. It happens.

Not saying it’s not possible, but it is improbable. If a teacher had 9 classes in one day, they would have 9-13 lessons spread out over the next four days. That would be less than 3 periods each day or 1hour 20 minutes. I’m not aware of any full time teachers who only have 2 or 3 lessons four days a week.

Also typically core subjects are taught in sets of 5 or 6 classes per week. If you are teaching a core subject and you had 9 periods in one day you you would have to have mostly doubles on that day, it would be a stretch to come into contact with 120, not impossible but unlikely.

<<MOD Snip>>

Pringles123

Valhallapt wrote: »

Not saying it’s not possible, but it is improbable. If a teacher had 9 classes in one day, they would have 9-13 lessons spread out over the next four days. That would be less than 3 periods each day or 1hour 20 minutes. I’m not aware of any full time teachers who only have 2 or 3 lessons four days a week.

Also typically core subjects are taught in sets of 5 or 6 classes per week. If you are teaching a core subject and you had 9 periods in one day you you would have to have mostly doubles on that day, it would be a stretch to come into contact with 120, not impossible but unlikely.

.

I think you're getting confused by how many periods teachers have per week depending on whether the classes are hour long or 40 minutes. Teachers teaching in 40 minutes schools have something like 32 timetable periods a week, whereas hour long have 21 as you say. Also just because you teach a core subject doesn't mean you can't have more than one class in a year group.

So whilst it isn't likely you have 9 classes in a day it happens a lot more than you think.

Valhallapt

Pringles123 wrote: »

I think you're getting confused by how many periods teachers have per week depending on whether the classes are hour long or 40 minutes. Teachers teaching in 40 minutes schools have something like 32 timetable periods a week, whereas hour long have 21 as you say. Also just because you teach a core subject doesn't mean you can't have more than one class in a year group.

So whilst it isn't likely you have 9 classes in a day it happens a lot more than you think.

Yes you are right. I did mix up the 21hours vs 21 periods. Point still stands though.

Triangle

briangriffin wrote: »

Its hard to comprehend what you are saying in your first paragraph there. Apart from the fact Finite is a word you are fond of.
Yes I know the difference between NIAC/NEPHET and the government. The government have ignored the advice of the medical experts on numerous occasions. The medical experts have also given questionable advice on numerous occasions and have admitted getting it wrong. You seem to have difficulty comprehending that though. Again in January with community transmission rates the highest in the world we were told schools were safe and a few days later were told hang on they are not safe. I recall NPHET doctor Collins saying schools are as safe despite no additional safety measures and a more highly contagious virus.
If the community is the source of infection and the children come from the community and mix for hours during the day in large numbers which is literally the opposite of all public guidelines then do you not see how there is more of a risk for Teachers and SNAs.
There are different rules in schools when it comes to testing – not everyone in a class has been seen as a close contact and tested. I know teachers and families isolating from other family members going into school who contracted the virus and were told it was community transmission even though they had cut their community contacts. Up to full opening of schools last week the data they are using was based on testing of close contacts pre Christmas, not all close contacts were tested. Which is why when teachers, who know exactly what is happening on the ground in classrooms were told schools are safe in January even with the new strain they were up in arms as may I point out parents who were concerned for their children were. Now with the newer more contagious dare I say it airborne strain that presents a greater risk to everyone in schools. It would make sense to vaccinate in those settings in fact this has been prioritized in other countries like France and America. Again not ahead of the elderly and vulnerable or healthcare workers that’s not what teachers are looking for but it makes a fantastic headline as does the “strike”. We won’t strike we are glad to be back in class despite everything I’ve said above because its best for the children and teachers and online learning is no where near as effective – but teachers didn’t invent covid for a few handy months working from home. If you have to work in a crowded setting it makes sense to vaccinate so that you can keep workers safe and schools open that’s not out of any sense of entitlement.

OK, I'm not going to go into the difficulties of cross referencing databases again. I've already discussed and explained the difficulties in rolling out an occupational vaccination program in this thread. It's extremely time entensive, error enhancing and would have slowed down the rollout.

With the simple facts that the numbers in hospital have decreased week on week, while vaccinations have targeted the most at risk. At the same time the numbers that have covid are static. This shows that targeting the most at risk is correct.
Yes, people get covid, but the numbers getting seriously ill are decreasing.

Do you honestly think vaccination of a 30 yo teacher is better than a 55 yo parent of a teacher?

Pringles123

Valhallapt wrote: »

Yes you are right. I did mix up the 21hours vs 21 periods. Point still stands though.

As I said in my original post it is up to 250, which still stands. This also doesn't take account of staff pods or even supervision especially on wet days when all students are inside and you're walking between multiple classrooms of students you do not even teach. The reality is some schools like my own have upwards of 1000 people in the building a day, for the full day. It is a lot of people and a lot of families by extention.
I have said it here before on boards, I have the expectation of the government to have all students and teachers vaccinated by September. Even if it means students and younger teachers being prioritised over people working from home.

Locotastic

Pringles123 wrote: »

I have said it here before on boards, I have the expectation of the government to have all students and teachers vaccinated by September. Even if it means students and younger teachers being prioritised over people working from home.

Students? Other than those age 18+ or those age 16+ for serious underlying conditions there is no plan to vaccinate 'all students'.

What are you talking about? Might want to adjust your expectation, that is not going to happen.