The Great Covid Divide

cerateau

SnuggyBear wrote: »

Almost 2k isn't a massive tax bill to you?

That's some amount of earnings you had in the first three months of the year to amass that bill.

SnuggyBear

cerateau wrote: »

That's some amount of earnings you had in the first three months of the year to amass that bill.

Huh? It's from last year obviously and it's still going up. You think I'm getting rich off 350 a week or something?

cerateau

PintOfView wrote: »

You seem to think no restrictions should have been enforced,
which means you are prepared to sacrifice those who would have died,
and would be happy with no health service till we all got herd immunity!!

300 cases today, after weeks of protests, parties, general non-adherence to restrictions.
Go figure

Beasty

lawred2 wrote: »

there is if you have a reserve currency and a central bank willing to print whatever it takes

That view is fundamentally flawed. If you print money you move towards inflation. Inflation results in higher interest rates. Debts have to be repaid.

Future generations will ultimately bear the brunt of this.

xhomelezz

cerateau wrote: »

300 cases today, after weeks of protests, parties, general non-adherence to restrictions.
Go figure

What protests? You mean couple hundred clowns who achieved absolutely nothing ?

What general non adherence to restrictions?

SnuggyBear

Antares35 wrote: »

What do you mean by people who have "done well from the pandemic"? Those of us who continued to work? Often from our kitchens, with kids screaming in the background? Who've had to ask our partners to take annual leave when we have board meetings scheduled so that they baby doesn't throw a wobbly when the chair is giving his update? Who have continued to work, pay tax, PRSI, USC so that the PUP can be paid and try to save for a house in a market that's so pent up that there are people outbidding each other for houses they've only seen online?

How do you think someone on pup is going to buy a house now?

Antares35

SnuggyBear wrote: »

Almost 2k isn't a massive tax bill to you?

So as not to avoid the question, I don't consider it to be "massive".

In any event, isn't it payable over four years via reduced tax credits.

Antares35

SnuggyBear wrote: »

How do you think someone on pup is going to buy a house now?

I don't tbh.

SnuggyBear

Antares35 wrote: »

So as not to avoid the question, I don't consider it to be "massive".

In any event, isn't it payable over four years via reduced tax credits.

Probably not massive to someone who has worked all year. Try paying a mortgage, bills and live on 350 a week maybe you will have a different opinion. But hey you had the struggle of working at the kicthen table.

And no it has to be paid this year.

Antares35

PintOfView wrote: »

You're misquoting me. I said "relatively well".
If you were able to continue to work, even from your kitchen, then you were likely to be able to continue paying your mortgage, and other loans, etc.

That puts you a lot better off than some, who are in fear of not working again (and not by choice), or of losing their house, etc.

You said "anyone who has done relatively well from the pandemic" implying that there was some kind of profit or gain to be made from the pandemic itself. I'm simply pointing out that those of us who continued to work and pay tax etc didn't "do well". I accept we did well relative to those who lost out, but you probably should have made it clearer if that was your position instead of saying we did relativity well "from the pandemic". Unfortunately those who did well from it are the usual suspects. Money makes money etc. For the avoidance of doubt, I have not suggested nor do I support the idea that those on PUP should have to pay more when the time comes. But I also don't think people who have been working the whole time should be the only ones to shoulder this.

Antares35

SnuggyBear wrote: »

But hey you had the struggle of working at the kicthen table.

You asked me if I think a 2k tax bill is "massive" and I said no. Why are you so angry about that?

xhomelezz

xhomelezz wrote: »

What protests? You mean couple hundred clowns who achieved absolutely nothing ?

What general non adherence to restrictions?

Seriously? Everyone where I live has visitors coming and going. It's a running joke at this stage. There's one guy in particular who is forever visiting 4 or 5 houses in the street.

Kids, teenagers and young adults don't follow the restrictions at all.

We ourselves met up with people outdoors in back gardens over the weekend. Load of nonsense that this isn't permitted under the regulations anyway.

SnuggyBear

Antares35 wrote: »

You asked me if I think a 2k tax bill is "massive" and I said no. Why are you so angry about that?

Whos "angry"?

Antares35

SnuggyBear wrote: »

Whos "angry"?

You.

lawred2

Beasty wrote: »

That view is fundamentally flawed. If you print money you move towards inflation. Inflation results in higher interest rates. Debts have to be repaid.

Future generations will ultimately bear the brunt of this.

Hmmm

Central Banks have been doing "whatever it takes" now for about a decade and yet here we are with negative interest rates and practically zero inflation.

What is needed is massive public investment across Europe backed by a huge Eurobond program.

SnuggyBear

Antares35 wrote: »

You.

Almost as angry as you ranting about working from the kitchen table

Antares35

SnuggyBear wrote: »

Almost as angry as you ranting about working from the kitchen table

ok then

Edit but seriously you should contact revenue because it really doesn't sound right that you should be paying a tax bill in one heap. They're meant to be adjusting tax credits over a four year period to claw it back.

SnuggyBear

Antares35 wrote: »

ok then

Edit but seriously you should contact revenue because it really doesn't sound right that you should be paying a tax bill in one heap. They're meant to be adjusting tax credits over a four year period to claw it back.

They changed it

Antares35

SnuggyBear wrote: »

They changed it

Oh sorry I didn't realise. They must have snuck that in quietly.

https://www.revenue.ie/en/life-events-and-personal-circumstances/pup-tax-liability/how-pup-received-in-2021-is-taxed.aspx

Is it not just what's received in 2021 that's taxed immediately then? Looks like 2020 PUP is still spreadable over four years?

growleaves

lawred2 wrote: »

Hmmm

Central Banks have been doing "whatever it takes" now for about a decade now and yet here we are with negative interest rates and practically zero inflation.

What is needed is massive public investment across Europe backed by a huge Eurobond program.

They can continue to suppress interest rates for the moment which does not make more debt issuance a good idea on top of bank bailouts and lockdown debts.

The real sting is from asset inflation (including housing) and repayment of the principal, which is now so high it will create a deflationary drag on wages and economic activity generally.

PintOfView

Antares35 wrote: »

You said "anyone who has done relatively well from the pandemic" implying that there was some kind of profit or gain to be made from the pandemic itself.

From the context it should have been obvious I didn't mean anything like that.

Antares35 wrote: »

I'm simply pointing out that those of us who continued to work and pay tax etc didn't "do well". I accept we did well relative to those who lost out, but you probably should have made it clearer if that was your position instead of saying we did relativity well "from the pandemic". Unfortunately those who did well from it are the usual suspects. Money makes money etc. For the avoidance of doubt, I have not suggested nor do I support the idea that those on PUP should have to pay more when the time comes. But I also don't think people who have been working the whole time should be the only ones to shoulder this.

The majority of 'us' continued to work, and pay tax (as you mention tax).
Yes, of course we didn't 'do well' compared to a normal year.
But it wasn't a normal year,
and the majority who managed to keep working, and paying tax, were, and are,
much better off than a lot of people whose jobs weren't possible to do from home.

I think the op has a valid point when talking about a covid divide,
where a lot of people will not be much worse off financially, and some better off, whereas
a lot of other people will have lost jobs, lost businesses, lost savings, lost relationships, etc.

It's interesting to see the polarisation already in this thread.
People who are "busier than they've ever been" only concerned about their tax burden,
and no concern for the good percentage of people in our society who need support.
Let them eat cake I suppose!

Eric Cartman

lawred2 wrote: »

Hmmm

Central Banks have been doing "whatever it takes" now for about a decade and yet here we are with negative interest rates and practically zero inflation.

What is needed is massive public investment across Europe backed by a huge Eurobond program.

governments worldwide have been trying to jump start inflation for a decade now , we were due a period of serious inflation and I think this may be the thing that does it.

Fred Cryton

Cluedo Monopoly wrote: »

It strikes me that Covid has created a great divide in Ireland from a financial point of view.

Many people have lost out financially - lost jobs, lost income, lost businesses, lost savings etc...while many other people have benefited financially - increased income, lower costs, increased savings etc. I see the disparity in my own family circle.

It will be interesting what will happen when we have to start paying back the borrowings, balancing the books or paying to stimulate the economy. For example, will it be fair to tax people in the hospitality industry who were on PUP for a year the same rates as people who enjoyed working-from-home and built up their savings?

The people that did well financially will be mad keen to splurge when things open up while the people that struggled will just want to make ends meet again. The divide will be felt for many years. What other impacts will it have I wonder?

Fundamentally your post presumes inequality is a bad thing. Why? i disagree entirely with that.



You should not be envious of people who are doing well. You should only care whether the lowest few deciles of the population are able to eat and provide the basics for themselves if they're not working due to the pandemic. 350 a week will easily allow that.


End of.

tommybrees

If there was such a dangerous virus out there we wouldn't need Gardai to be enforcing these restrictions and fining people, because people would see for themselves how serious it can be and wouldn't need to be told 24/7.

The whole thing is a never ending nightmare and how nobody can see the writing on the wall at this stage is beyond me

Padre_Pio

tommybrees wrote: »

If there was such a dangerous virus out there we wouldn't need Gardai to be enforcing these restrictions and fining people, because people would see for themselves how serious it can be and wouldn't need to be told 24/7.

The whole thing is a never ending nightmare and how nobody can see the writing on the wall at this stage is beyond me

That's the approach the US took. They're not doing too well in COVID leaderboards. People are often self-interested, selfish, and irresponsible. The novelty has worn off at this stage and it's business as usual for many, regardless of what the government and Gardai say.

Also, we have had 3 months of savage lockdown as a result of one month of COVID relaxation. What would the place be like if the country remained open after Christmas?

Beasty

lawred2 wrote: »

Hmmm

Central Banks have been doing "whatever it takes" now for about a decade and yet here we are with negative interest rates and practically zero inflation.

What is needed is massive public investment across Europe backed by a huge Eurobond program.

Someone will pay for this, whatever you think

We are already paying something in the loss of our freedoms, albeit a temporary measure

I remember when interest rates were in the mid-teens. Low interest means your currency devalues. That makes imports more expensive. That pushes up inflation

More borrowing will be required to support the unemployed. It will also be required to fund the state, along with increased taxes. And those extra taxes are part of the cost

Of course we can all sit back and leave the Germans to grow us out of this. The difference this time though is the Germans are nearly as up to their necks in this as we are

I personally see the outcome of this being bigger growth in places like the far east. They may be able to grow themselves out of this, but in doing so they extract more resources leaving less for those future generations

We were incredibly lucky with the financial crash, not only in having the rest of the EU to fall back on, but to have multinationals continuing to invest on the back of low corporate tax rates. Now we have a competitive Far East to contend with, a US Administration that's looking to increase taxes on profits made here by those multinationals, a next door neighbour no longer hamstrung by the EU and its red tape, an international tax regime that is very different to what it was a decade ago

TBH the only way I could see Ireland being able to grow its way out of this is through massive immigration, but currently we are failing to house everyone already in the State.

tommybrees

Padre_Pio wrote: »

That's the approach the US took. They're not doing too well in COVID leaderboards. People are often self-interested, selfish, and irresponsible. The novelty has worn off at this stage and it's business as usual for many, regardless of what the government and Gardai say.

Also, we have had 3 months of savage lockdown as a result of one month of COVID relaxation. What would the place be like if the country remained open after Christmas?

Don't believe a word im hearing about this crap Christmas caused all this. Everyone and there dog knew we would be in lockdown again regardless of what happened at Christmas.
We opened up thing's at times last year and it was fine.
There's plenty of places in the USA that didn't enforce lockdown and there doing fine.
Nothing makes sense.

tommybrees

tommybrees wrote: »

Don't believe a word im hearing about this crap Christmas caused all this. Everyone and there dog knew we would be in lockdown again regardless of what happened at Christmas.
We opened up thing's at times last year and it was fine.
There's plenty of places in the USA that didn't enforce lockdown and there doing fine.
Nothing makes sense.

We were going into lockdown after Christmas because people were going to be mixing indoors.
You had members of the site talking about how they came home from the UK through the north for Christmas etc and were visiting relatives despite the then new variant being confirmed.
As for the U.S. have various states like Florida where the governor were and maybe still areactively having their stats manipulated to suit the businesses first party line.

tommybrees

DubInMeath wrote: »

We were going into lockdown after Christmas because people were going to be mixing indoors.
You had members of the site talking about how they came home from the UK through the north for Christmas etc and were visiting relatives despite the then new variant being confirmed.
As for the U.S. have various states like Florida where the governor were and maybe still areactively having their stats manipulated to suit the businesses first party line.

People were mooching indoors before covid also.
What new variant?
Manipulation or not the fact is there fine, getting on with life. While here we are.

is_that_so

tommybrees wrote: »

Don't believe a word im hearing about this crap Christmas caused all this. Everyone and there dog knew we would be in lockdown again regardless of what happened at Christmas.
We opened up thing's at times last year and it was fine.
There's plenty of places in the USA that didn't enforce lockdown and there doing fine.
Nothing makes sense.

Christmas is unique with the numbers of contacts we make with others and they sizes of crowds. It was all of it at the same time; more socialising, more restaurant visits but generally people trying to have a normal Christmas. That is human but a recipe for disaster in a pandemic. That's not to say we weren't expecting a surge, but the huge numbers caught everyone by surprise.