The Great Covid Divide

Baggly

Mod

Folks, the topic of this thread is financial inequality due to the pandemic. I will remind everyone to try to stay on that topic in this thread. Thanks.

tommybrees

Lockdown is doing way more harm than good, look at the bigger picture and see where this is all leading.
Every year they will be able to lockdown because it will be used as an excuse for every problem we will face.

Padre_Pio

tommybrees wrote: »

Lockdown is doing way more harm than good, look at the bigger picture and see where this is all leading.
Every year they will be able to lockdown because it will be used as an excuse for every problem we will face.

That's hard to quantify since near every country went into some form of lockdown.
There's no control group to compare against.

No country in the world made the choice to remain open and accept the death toll. Even the UK backed down after a few months when a thousand people a day were dying in April last year.

So your statement is meaningless, unfortunately.

Many people in Ireladn are doing ok, even with lockdown. The vast majority are still working, either on full pay or subsidised wages. People saved twice as much last year than in 2019.
The way we work has also changed completely, with more companies shifting to online-only work.

Ficheall

Baggly wrote: »

Mod

Folks, the topic of this thread is financial inequality due to the pandemic. I will remind everyone to try to stay on that topic in this thread. Thanks.

I thought the OP just wanted a general whinge - apologies.


On topic then, I "enjoyed working from home" as the OP puts it, throughout, and will pay tax on it as usual. I've no great desire to subsidise the poor PUP people who had the same income as I did but didn't get to do any work.

tommybrees

Padre_Pio wrote: »

That's hard to quantify since near every country went into some form of lockdown.
There's no control group to compare against.

No country in the world made the choice to remain open and accept the death toll. Even the UK backed down after a few months when a thousand people a day were dying in April last year.

So your statement is meaningless, unfortunately.

Many people in Ireladn are doing ok, even with lockdown. The vast majority are still working, either on full pay or subsidised wages. People saved twice as much last year than in 2019.
The way we work has also changed completely, with more companies shifting to online-only work.

Most countries did the lockdown because nobody knew any better. 1 year on we no for absolute certain this is nowhere near as dangerous as we thought. It might be dangerous to some, but 99 % of us will be grand. It's absolute fact.

Lots of states in the US have reopened.
There's plenty places that didn't do full lock down.

People are doing just OK but I'm sure most would like to get There's lives back on track ASAP.

Cluedo Monopoly

Ficheall wrote: »

I thought the OP just wanted a general whinge - apologies.

How dare you ya pup ya! :pac:

Ficheall

tommybrees wrote: »

It might be dangerous to some, but 99 % of us will be grand. It's absolute fact.

Have you a good reference for that "absolute fact"?

I'm having difficulty finding a concrete number for the fatality rate, but presumably you have one. I guess you're counting hospitalized/ICU people who eventually recover as "absolutely grand" too?

Beasty

tommybrees wrote: »

Most countries did the lockdown because nobody knew any better. 1 year on we no for absolute certain this is nowhere near as dangerous as we thought. It might be dangerous to some, but 99 % of us will be grand. It's absolute fact.

Lots of states in the US have reopened.
There's plenty places that didn't do full lock down.

People are doing just OK but I'm sure most would like to get There's lives back on track ASAP.

Well the UK has had various lockdowns, but still 4.4m reported cases. 1.1m reported to have suffered long covid, plus another 126k deaths.

No one really knew how dangerous it was, but over a year on and only now getting vaccines rolled out does not paint a good picture.

And I know some thought sod all this. Let's open up (or not lockdown). Look at what was happening in Italy a year ago. Fortunately we had time to prepare and we managed to flatten the curve. It would have been a much grimmer outcome without that preparation and indeed without those lockdowns.

growleaves

I think this episode how shown how robotic the complaining about welfare is.

Joe Hand-Soap will agitate to force a million people onto emergency welfare, - really UBI in disguise - declaim responsibility ('I trust the experts') and then without blinking complain about having to pay for people on welfare.

Its just algorithmic, they can't help it.

Some people have spent decades of their life being an I-pay-my-taxes bore (blah blah blah I work hard) and so don't even notice that they are the ones driving the biggest expansion of welfarism in history.

Jeremy Sproket

If private pension funds are raided (again) then it's only fair and fitting that public sector pension annuities are reduced by an equivalent margin that the private pensions will be by virtue of the cash grab.

For example, if they decide to grab 0.5% per year for 5 years, then they will have taken 2.5% of my moneys. 1-(0.995^5).

So public sector pension annuities should be reduced by a similar amount, ie, if someone was due to retire on €32,000, then give them €31,200 instead and instead of the lump sum on €96,000, give them €93,600.

Padre_Pio

tommybrees wrote: »

Most countries did the lockdown because nobody knew any better. 1 year on we no for absolute certain this is nowhere near as dangerous as we thought. It might be dangerous to some, but 99 % of us will be grand. It's absolute fact.

Lots of states in the US have reopened.
There's plenty places that didn't do full lock down.

People are doing just OK but I'm sure most would like to get There's lives back on track ASAP.

You don't know that.

No one knows that. The world locked down, yet tens of millions got COVID, millions died, we have 4 or so variants out in the wild and we've still not got a grip yet on it.

Your argument against lockdown is only based on evidence after a lockdown.

You cant say that 99% will be fine.

Jeremy Sproket

Jeremy Sproket wrote: »

If private pension funds are raided (again) then it's only fair and fitting that public sector pension annuities are reduced by an equivalent margin that the private pensions will be by virtue of the cash grab.

For example, if they decide to grab 0.5% per year for 5 years, then they will have taken 2.5% of my moneys. 1-(0.995^5).

So public sector pension annuities should be reduced by a similar amount, ie, if someone was due to retire on €32,000, then give them €31,200 instead and instead of the lump sum on €96,000, give them €93,600.

They should. But they won’t. No government will touch the public sector, and private sector workers will be expected to pick up the bill. It’ll be another manifestation of a Covid divide, as private sector workers get hammered while public sector workers increments and pensions are protected

GazzaL

Padre_Pio wrote: »

That's hard to quantify since near every country went into some form of lockdown.
There's no control group to compare against.

No country in the world made the choice to remain open and accept the death toll. Even the UK backed down after a few months when a thousand people a day were dying in April last year.

So your statement is meaningless, unfortunately.

Many people in Ireladn are doing ok, even with lockdown. The vast majority are still working, either on full pay or subsidised wages. People saved twice as much last year than in 2019.
The way we work has also changed completely, with more companies shifting to online-only work.

Around 900,000 people are dependent on State supports, whether it's the EWSS, PUP, or unemployment benefits. That's over a third of the labour force. I know of lots of others who are not claiming any State supports because they've chosen to operate in the "grey economy" instead.

Some people have been forced out of work for over a year with no plan to resume. It's not acceptable to throw entire industries under the bus to pander to fascists, morons, and hypochondriacs.

The way some people work has changed completely. There are other industries where it is not possible to do everything online.

Also, in terms of professional relationship building and management, it is also much preferable to be able to meet people in person. This is something that isn't properly understood by average desk jockeys.

beggars_bush

Deleted User wrote: »

They should. But they won’t. No government will touch the public sector, and private sector workers will be expected to pick up the bill. It’ll be another manifestation of a Covid divide, as private sector workers get hammered while public sector workers increments and pensions are protected

Most public sector pensions are not very lucrative any more

It all basically means the USC is here to stay for another 10 years

Madio Sane

It has been very interesting reading the various points made so far. A startling figure to me is the 25% unemployment rate currently. That was the peak figure for The Great Depression! Now I know some of that figure will return to work when lockdown relaxes but there will be many more added to the figure when businesses wind up in the future as unfortunately some inevitably will. From recent media reports it appears the Government want to get rid of the PUP ASAP but keep the EWSS in place beyond June. This will probably become a political football as it did in September last year.

From my own experience a big issue will be how to wean businesses off the EWSS. A big attraction of the scheme, as well as the €203-350 subsidy, is the 0.5% ER PRSI. I don't think the Govt can flick a switch and go back to business as normal with the employer paying the full wage and 8.8% or 11.05% ER PRSI. It will have to be a graduated approach starting at maybe 4-5% going to 8.8% to 11.05% after certain intervals or something like that. I would also have a concern over businesses which were allowed to tax warehouse debt being able to repay the debt. Whenever they do open back up they will have to pay all their current taxes like VAT, PAYE, & IT/CT on top of chipping away at legacy debts. The hope is obviously is for a spending boom which will allow for higher turnover and thus an ability to pay back.

Employees returning to work could be a sticky wicket. This is especially the case in public facing roles because as mentioned before many workers will see remote working as major part of their working week. What if an employee even, if vaccinated, refuses to come back due to health/danger concerns? Now normally that would be a failure to fulfil their contract of employment and they could be terminated. However they might now argue that the employer cannot provide a safe working environment. (Even if vaccinated they can still contract and transmit Covid-19). I reckon there will be a plethora of cases to be heard in the courts in regard to this and other Covid disputes. Another might be where an employer insists an employee returns to the office. I understand that the burden will now be on the employer to prove the employee must return rather than remote work though I am open to correction.

Sorry to end on an unpleasant note but I can easily see lockdowns being a feature of life in Ireland for the next 3-5 years even when enough of the population is vaccinated. I predict we will go into some sort of lockdown each December to early February. This was normally the peak time in hospitals before the pandemic and now there is a precedent for shutting down parts of the economy to protect the health service which would never have been tolerated before. Unless medical science innovates (and I hope it does) to find a way to eliminate viruses they will continue to circulate and mutate in the population for decades as we have seen from the history of coronaviruses.

Cluedo Monopoly

Madio Sane wrote: »

Sorry to end on an unpleasant note but I can easily see lockdowns being a feature of life in Ireland for the next 3-5 years even when enough of the population is vaccinated. I predict we will go into some sort of lockdown each December to early February. This was normally the peak time in hospitals before the pandemic and now there is a precedent for shutting down parts of the economy to protect the health service which would never have been tolerated before. Unless medical science innovates (and I hope it does) to find a way to eliminate viruses they will continue to circulate and mutate in the population for decades as we have seen from the history of coronaviruses.

I don't know about that. This press release was from November 2019. 3 months before Covid hit. Worth a quick read.

https://www.inmo.ie/Home/Index/217/13549

Nobody seemed to be listening.

PintOfView

Cluedo Monopoly wrote: »

I don't know about that. This press release was from November 2019. 3 months before Covid hit. Worth a quick read.

https://www.inmo.ie/Home/Index/217/13549

Nobody seemed to be listening.

That does highlight the deficiencies in the health service, which pre-dates covid.
What's the answer?
The budget has been increasing for years, without seeming to increase capacity!

And successive ministers for health haven't been able to shake things up.

Padre_Pio

GazzaL wrote: »

Around 900,000 people are dependent on State supports, whether it's the EWSS, PUP, or unemployment benefits. That's over a third of the labour force.

Even if there isn't a recession this year, it'll take years to come back from COVID.

Things don't turn on a dime. There's so many small businesses going to the wall it's depressing and we'll only see this once PUP is tapered off.

Cluedo Monopoly

It looks like the debate has begun.

https://www.rte.ie/news/business/2021/0417/1210516-should-pandemic-winners-pay-a-solidarity-tax/

Should 'pandemic winners' pay a solidarity tax?

This includes people who found themselves temporarily or permanently out of work and saw their income streams drying up in the past year which may have necessitated liquidating any savings that they had put aside in the years before the pandemic.

This phenomenon has been characterised by the much-talked of 'K-shaped' recovery that appears to be materialising.

The corollary of this is that a more divided society could emerge at the end of the pandemic with the 'haves' at an even greater remove from the 'have-nots'.

This prospect prompted a recent suggestion from the IMF that countries might consider the introduction of a temporary solidarity tax on individuals and businesses that have done well in the past year.

Madio Sane

Madio Sane wrote: »

Sorry to end on an unpleasant note but I can easily see lockdowns being a feature of life in Ireland for the next 3-5 years even when enough of the population is vaccinated. I predict we will go into some sort of lockdown each December to early February. This was normally the peak time in hospitals before the pandemic and now there is a precedent for shutting down parts of the economy to protect the health service which would never have been tolerated before. Unless medical science innovates (and I hope it does) to find a way to eliminate viruses they will continue to circulate and mutate in the population for decades as we have seen from the history of coronaviruses.

I don't mean any disrespect as you are entitled to your view, it's one that I find most bizarre.

At one point I wandered if this would be our lot every winter for a number of years but rationally I can't see it. Lockdown has created a multitude of issues and not just economic. To think that our Government would continue with them even when Covid is well under control? I can't see it.

Remember that the members of NPHET and of our Government aren't just policy making robots. They are people with lives. Apart from the damage yearly lockdowns would do to our country I can't imagine it being something any one of them would want.

Del Griffith

Has this been posted yet? Solidarity tax

https://m.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/green-ministercalls-forone-off-solidaritytax-on-high-earners-and-companies-that-have-benefited-from-pandemic-40304036.html

UI_Paddy

Del Griffith wrote: »

Has this been posted yet? Solidarity tax

https://m.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/green-ministercalls-forone-off-solidaritytax-on-high-earners-and-companies-that-have-benefited-from-pandemic-40304036.html

I admire the rationale, and it's probably more likely than the solidarity payment Alan Kelly requested last year (which almost certainly would have caused issues with non-healthcare workers feeling left out when they too worked throughout the pandemic but didn't get the payment) but it's still just another one of those things I'll believe when I see it.

Del Griffith

Del Griffith wrote: »

Has this been posted yet? Solidarity tax

https://m.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/green-ministercalls-forone-off-solidaritytax-on-high-earners-and-companies-that-have-benefited-from-pandemic-40304036.html

The existing framework, in which we pay away 50% of income earned over €70k already seems like a solidarity tax to me.

harrylittle

Del Griffith wrote: »

Has this been posted yet? Solidarity tax

https://m.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/green-ministercalls-forone-off-solidaritytax-on-high-earners-and-companies-that-have-benefited-from-pandemic-40304036.html

communists ... ireland is quickly decending into a communist state

harrylittle

Deleted User wrote: »

I don't mean any disrespect as you are entitled to your view, it's one that I find most bizarre.

At one point I wandered if this would be our lot every winter for a number of years but rationally I can't see it. Lockdown has created a multitude of issues and not just economic. To think that our Government would continue with them even when Covid is well under control? I can't see it.

Remember that the members of NPHET and of our Government aren't just policy making robots. They are people with lives. Apart from the damage yearly lockdowns would do to our country I can't imagine it being something any one of them would want.

you have lot to learn.

wes

harrylittle wrote: »

communists ... ireland is quickly decending into a communist state

A solidarity tax is not communism ffs.....

Geuze

Deleted User wrote: »

The existing framework, in which we pay away 50% of income earned over €70k already seems like a solidarity tax to me.

Yes, and 48.5% after 35/36k approx.

faceman

Over 400,000 people currently out of work but Pascal only sees 70,000 of them getting back to work before the end of the year. I dont see how he can expect it return to pre-covid levels by 2023. If businesses fold and there's no one to replace them, there's no work.

https://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/more-than-70000-people-to-be-back-working-by-end-of-year-donohoe-1113828.html

harrylittle

harrylittle wrote: »

you have lot to learn.

Why do you think that?

Grassy Knoll

People like me who were fortunate enough to have kept their job - the best tax is we spend our savings and boost the economy - we are getting the garden done and spending a fair bit on it - if we all were to do the same the taxes wouldn’t be long about improving.